NRG
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since February 2018
Posts: 1,688
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Post by NRG on Nov 30, 2018 22:05:51 GMT -5
In another thread 1dave floated the concept of colonizing Mars. A topic ripe with concepts to discuss. One concept that came up was "mining asteroids". Instead of taking that thread off topic, I float that topic here. What should be sought? How would it be sought? Can it be done? Should it be done? How do we get it here? Manned? Unmanned? Anything else. Let's chew on it. |
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Post by vegasjames on Nov 30, 2018 22:54:18 GMT -5
First thing to consider is what it is being mined for? If you are talking about raw materials to be hauled back to Earth? If so then is this going to be economical. Or will it cost more to get it back and land it safely than it is worth?
If for colonization of something like Mars again is it economical to "catch" or mine an asteroid and get the materials back safely to the surface. And even if this is possible economically how will it now get processed then manufactured in to something useful?
And what are the logistics of mining asteroids? For example how to land on an asteroid traveling at such high speeds and possibly tumbling.
What kind of equipment will be needed to mine the asteroid. Keep in mind that some asteroids are iron-nickel and cannot be cut with diamond due to the crystalline structure that makes it hard on diamond blades. And cutting is super slow, about a 1/4' per hour for iron-nickel meteorites. This also means frequent blade changes. So how will this be done? By humans being exposed to heavy amounts of radiation and losing bone density while out in space? Keep in mind that the last probe to Mars took about 7 months to get there. 7 months of zero gravity means a large loss of bone density just for the trip there. So are people going to make these equipment changes or robots.
And the more weight in a launch the more cost involved. So now we have to launch not only the people who wish to colonize Mars but also shelters, along with water and food for years to support them during the trip to Mars as well a the time the need to set up. All this will significantly increase the cost just to get there.
They will need organics, nitrogen, etc. for growing plants. Where will all this come from?
Basically I see the whole mining asteroids or colonizing Mars as being a complete pipe dream with current technology.
And if they were to colonize Mars somehow I see it being a whole lot easier to mine the Martial surface instead of asteroids. If we think about it Mars has been pounded so long by asteroids and other meteorite sources. There should therefore be a much wider variety of materials on the Martial surface compared to asteroids, such as potassium and iron needed for plant growth. Mars could also provide water at the ice caps and possibly under the surface as well as carbon dioxide from the Marian "snow".
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fishnpinball
Cave Dweller 
So much to learn, so little time
Member since March 2017
Posts: 1,491 
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Post by fishnpinball on Nov 30, 2018 23:52:56 GMT -5
What is probably the most profitable approach to asteroid mining is also the riskiest. It would involve moving an asteroid into earth orbit. A simple mistake in the move could be catastrophic. The upside being that if it was hollowed out by the mining process it could be converted to a habitat as technology progressed. The easiest to find would be nickel iron. Given modern industrial demand I would guess rare earth metals would be the best choice. The refining process produces a lot of toxic waste which are then actually easier to deal with. An asteroid containing them would probably be much more difficult to locate.
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NRG
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since February 2018
Posts: 1,688
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Post by NRG on Nov 30, 2018 23:53:12 GMT -5
Thanks James! I see it as being done by mechanized fleet. No humans. Iron nickel will be common, probably. Little need to haul it here. Probably little need to haul it to moon or Mars either. As for cost versus value or "return on investment" indium plus gold and other Noble metals are obvious for earth delivery. Maybe even zinc. Mars and moon delivery? Titanium, tungsten, molybdenum and beryllium seem like reasonable targets. It's likely cheaper to take almost anything from asteroids to Mars than from earth. But the odds of that being needed are slim as discussed elsewhere. Thanks fishnpinball I forgot rare Earth's |
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Post by vegasjames on Dec 1, 2018 0:38:26 GMT -5
What is probably the most profitable approach to asteroid mining is also the riskiest. It would involve moving an asteroid into earth orbit. A simple mistake in the move could be catastrophic. The upside being that if it was hollowed out by the mining process it could be converted to a habitat as technology progressed. The easiest to find would be nickel iron. Given modern industrial demand I would guess rare earth metals would be the best choice. The refining process produces a lot of toxic waste which are then actually easier to deal with. An asteroid containing them would probably be much more difficult to locate. Iron is so common on Earth to begin with. Limonite for example it so abundant out here.
Nickel is more more on Earth but apparently not the rare to the point the price has made it highly valuable. That is why it is so abundant in cheap jewelry and inexpensive nickel cadmium batteries.
Iron-nickel asteroids would also be hard to process. The Nantan meteorites for example were accidentally discovered when iron nodules were being collected for smelting. Some of the nodules would not melt in the smelter and it was later found out these were meteorites. If such high temps are required to process this makes their processing for iron and nickel much more expensive. They would make more money selling the pieces of asteroid to meteorite collectors and researchers.
Seems to me that it would be so much easier to mine or own landfills. How much gold, silver, copper, cadmium, lead, iron, aluminum, etc. get tossed daily mainly in electronics alone?
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Post by vegasjames on Dec 1, 2018 1:03:39 GMT -5
Thanks James! I see it as being done by mechanized fleet. No humans. Iron nickel will be common, probably. Little need to haul it here. Probably little need to haul it to moon or Mars either. As for cost versus value or "return on investment" indium plus gold and other Noble metals are obvious for earth delivery. Maybe even zinc. Mars and moon delivery? Titanium, tungsten, molybdenum and beryllium seem like reasonable targets. It's likely cheaper to take almost anything from asteroids to Mars than from earth. But the odds of that being needed are slim as discussed elsewhere. Thanks fishnpinball I forgot rare Earth's Many of those compounds, especially gold are found in such small amounts. So by the time someone pays to build the equipment to do the mining and then launch them in to space (hopefully successfully) there is already a humongous cost. Now they would have to figure out how to do refining out in space on site as shipping back ore that would have a lot of less valuable material would have to be eliminated to reduce shipping costs back. Then that concentrate would have to be get the tons of concentrate back to Earth somehow. Could be splashed down like the old Apollo capsules but would require splashing down in territorial waters and clearing the area of all boat, ship and air traffic during splashdowns. If trying to do terrestrial landings the fuel required for thrusters to make the landing would cost a fortune. I just don't see it being economical.
And what if the aliens already already have mineral rights to the asteroids? They may shoot first with their lasers and ask questions later. 
Of course joking there but this does bring up another point. Will this lead to political upheaval as other countries try to lay claim on outer space mineral sources? Look at the uproar when Russia laid a flag under the water at the North Pole claiming the territory:
So are governments going to start planting flags on planets, moons, asteroids, etc. claiming ownership? And if so what wars it this going to cause?
I think we should be the first to plant a flag on the sun. Just think of the unlimited amounts of hydrogen and helium as well as solar power we could obtain.  |
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Post by parfive on Dec 1, 2018 1:10:17 GMT -5
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Post by 1dave on Dec 1, 2018 1:25:21 GMT -5
If people woke up to how many diamonds De Beers has diamonds would be near worthless.
The same thing would happen to gold if a solid gold asteroid were brought to earth.
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Post by parfive on Dec 1, 2018 2:24:06 GMT -5
Be nice if Homo sap. cleaned up some of the crap in his own backyard first.
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Post by vegasjames on Dec 1, 2018 4:56:02 GMT -5
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Post by vegasjames on Dec 1, 2018 4:56:44 GMT -5
Be nice if Homo sap. cleaned up some of the crap in his own backyard first. I totally agree. |
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Post by 1dave on Dec 1, 2018 9:48:23 GMT -5
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Post by grumpybill on Dec 1, 2018 9:51:16 GMT -5
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Post by parfive on Dec 1, 2018 11:48:40 GMT -5
Once the heavy capitalization costs of assembling the mining and manufacturing facilities is paid . . . Sheeit . . . we can’t even master the delta-v of potholes down here. : ) |
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Post by vegasjames on Dec 1, 2018 15:02:44 GMT -5
So how are things going to be launched from these other surfaces unless they launched to those surfaces from Earth or built their, which first means colonization of those surfaces? |
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Post by vegasjames on Dec 1, 2018 15:10:46 GMT -5
Yes, I remember seeing this on the news when it happened. But not all asteroids are the same. Some have different rotations. And this was just a small probe, nothing like what would be required for a mining operation. And one successful attempt does not make this feasible. Look at how many Mars landings have failed.
Also keep in mind how often asteroids in the asteroid belt are banging in to each other. This poses numerous other issues including complete destruction of the mining facilities and equipment to the asteroids being knocked off course or sent in to a tumble.
So there is so much more to consider here including factoring in the cost of failures, cost of production of launch sites on other surfaces than Earth, cost of getting the materials back to Earth for use,.......... Again we have a long way to go before mining outer space can be considered feasible and possibly profitable.
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