upliftcrazy
having dreams about rocks
Married
Member since August 2016
Posts: 63 
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Post by upliftcrazy on Jan 13, 2019 9:44:59 GMT -5
In 2016 when i joined RTH I read and read the posts here on RTH. I immediately ran across the post by HighPlainsDrifter on refurbishing nova wheels. over the past 2 years i've done several wheels. they were glossy, harder, much noisier with more vibration. in a postings of that thread i found others who experienced similar results. the wheels worked and still work. Lately i've had this nagging thought about why no one I know of has refurbished a wheel that looks , feels and sounds like the original. it has become a obsession that bounces around in my head everyday all day long. in late 2016 my wife and I were out with the fifth wheel in California and i actually went to Johnson brothers. it was in a industrial park. I went to the overhead door and said hello and crickets...no one answered back so i walked in and there was a guy who might have been from India, didn't see anyone that looked like the johnson i had imagined. He was sitting at a table, holding a Nova wheel with a paintbrush dipping it in what was probably epoxy, the dabbing it in what looked to be diamond powder, and painting it on the wheel, at the time it didn't seem important. another person came a shooed me away. i remembered this a month ago when my obsession went into overdrive. I have spent many a night (til 6 am) searching and reading and basically not doing what i should do, like eat, sleep, be productive. out of this single minded tunnel vision, I came up with 10 points that may or may not be true. i am posting it here because its not a tutorial. Instead of naming a company i will use the name "manufacturer" I am hoping someone who knows more could kind of set me straight. don't laugh now..................
• The main reason to color the wheels is to hide how much diamond is on the wheel it does have aesthetic and ID purposes. Manufacturer no longer states how much diamond is in the wheel
• The bumps on the wheel mean nothing in relation to how much diamond is on the wheel
• Having a even coat of adhesive & substrate matrix increases the life of the wheel
• Having the diamond evenly dispersed increases the life of the wheel
• The backing is equally at least and possibly more important than the other components (not yet researched)
• Diamond might be added to the Adhesive before application but would weaken and dispersion could be a problem.
• The diamond powder is added after the base coat (adhesive) is on the wheel
• The main working diamond is possibly added by positive /negative charging or some other method, it could be manually added.
• Unmodified epoxy has a poor shear adhesion (tension) but great compressive adhesion
• "manufacturer" either uses a modified hybrid epoxy or they don't use epoxy at all for an adhesive
• Urea or phenolic based adhesive may used as the first step in a 3 step process, both are excellent adhesives and have excellent shear adhesion
• If urea or phenolic is used they must be modified for flexibility
• manufacturing may topcoat with an epoxy meaning epoxy is used to stabilize and cushion the compressive action when pressure is exerted it would be a matrix or substrate
the thoughts of a madman.
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Post by rockjunquie on Jan 13, 2019 11:55:32 GMT -5
All I can add is that Johnson Bros was bought by an Indian or an Indian group.
My experience with them was not that good. Not hugely bad, but I'm not going back. I only got a hard wheel.
Having seen the info on DIY refurbs, I thought the diamond was mixed into the epoxy not painted on. Hmmm. Doesn't seem like the right way to go.
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Post by rockjunquie on Jan 13, 2019 12:03:46 GMT -5
I should add that I got a soft wheel from another company that is really loud. It cuts just fine, but the wheel is not rubbery soft like a nova. It's more like it is shellacked. I won't buy another. I'll use this til it's dead.
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Tommy
Administrator 
Member since January 2013
Posts: 12,936
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Post by Tommy on Jan 13, 2019 12:37:20 GMT -5
My one experience with re-coating a wheel ended poorly with my adhesive/diamond combination pretty much just flaking off - and yes I followed directions and cleaned it thoroughly with acetone before I started. The other prevailing theory was that I coated it on too thick which would not surprise me because if a little is good then a lot is great, right?
That being said, it's been in the back of my mind to try again and now this post has turned that up a notch. You didn't happen to sneak a peek at what adhesive the fellow was painting on did you? haha
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upliftcrazy
having dreams about rocks
Married
Member since August 2016
Posts: 63
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Post by upliftcrazy on Jan 13, 2019 17:47:25 GMT -5
My one experience with re-coating a wheel ended poorly with my adhesive/diamond combination pretty much just flaking off - and yes I followed directions and cleaned it thoroughly with acetone before I started. The other prevailing theory was that I coated it on too thick which would not surprise me because if a little is good then a lot is great, right? That being said, it's been in the back of my mind to try again and now this post has turned that up a notch. You didn't happen to sneak a peek at what adhesive the fellow was painting on did you? haha No i didn't see exactly what he was using but I watched how he applied it and it made sense, i have noticed that most things in lapidary (except the people) are not unique. they are shared or borrowed from other industries. so I got to thinking the wheels have been around awhile so it's got to be old tech. two of the strongest glues has ben around along time and is used making sandpaper, Phenol Formaldehyde, and the other is Urea Formaldehyde (urea occurs in the body discharged in urine) urea based glues are super strong but not so tough. polyurethane is Tough but only average strength. So I am sure you can tell where i am headed with this. analogy: polyurethane can take a punch and urea glue can't take a punch but it can hold on like theres no tomorrow. don't try this it could be dangerous (something you should never say to a rockhound) so I mixed the two together first thing I noticed a few large bubbles 3 maybe at a time but it was a reaction for sure that emitted ammonia (probably formaldehyde too) and instead of getting warm it got colder. I did this a few hours ago (i will be posting pics if its safe) the result is real glassy mixture with medium viscosity, a nice consistency. so i painted some on a clean wheel and then painted some resin grade diamond onto the tacky mixture on the wheel. it almost felt dried after 15 min under a heat lamp. i painted another coat of the glue mixture but this time i mixed diamond into it. after fifteen min no where near dry?  so I wait not sure what i am going to get |
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upliftcrazy
having dreams about rocks
Married
Member since August 2016
Posts: 63
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Post by upliftcrazy on Jan 17, 2019 3:42:52 GMT -5
UPDATE
A Few days have gone by since I got on the soft wheel kick. I have mixed epoxys, urethane's, vinyls urea, phenolics, resins.
Some reacted, some did not. The best result is in the pictures I posted with this post there are 3 wheels. 2 of the are recharged with diamond. The other is a example of the worn nova's I used with the first two. The wheel labeled A I used polishing various stones for about an hour.The second wheel never used. I can't see much difference. Which brings me to the reason I am writing this. I would like to get a group together to test variation to the soft wheel with the goal of making a better wheel than the nova. I know this is not easy and will likely fall short. I am sure we can come up with a better recharge than what's being used now. What I need is wheels to recharge. If anyone wants to participate send me a wheel I will document with weights, and pictures and send you the wheel back recharged and you can document it's use. The wheel must be worn but not worn out. If you are not sure if the wheel is usable send me picture and we will figure it out. The wheel I made and used for a hour actually worked surprisingly well. I figure it will take 10 to to 15 days to get your wheel back
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upliftcrazy
having dreams about rocks
Married
Member since August 2016
Posts: 63
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Post by upliftcrazy on Jan 17, 2019 3:45:09 GMT -5
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zarguy
fully equipped rock polisher
Cedar City, Utah - rockhound heaven!
Member since December 2005
Posts: 1,791
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Post by zarguy on Nov 16, 2021 22:30:34 GMT -5
upliftcrazy I missed your post, and found it almost 3 years later. I've been re-coating soft wheels for about 10 years. I tried linear polyurethane at the suggestion of someone on RTH, but it was too hard & didn't expose the diamond well. I've been using Bob Smith Industries 30 min slow cure epoxy since then with better results, but still am not satisfied. I think I'd like to use something that's a bit rubbery, so it wears slowly and exposes the diamond. I'm not as technical as you, just a simple, frugal lapidary. I mix the epoxy on a sheet of glass & then mix in the diamond. I do 300, 600, 1200, & 3000. I use belts on 8" drums. I don't know what more I can contribute to the process, but I'd like to hear all of your (and other's) progress. Lynn
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AzRockGeek
has rocks in the head
Member since September 2016
Posts: 695
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Post by AzRockGeek on Nov 17, 2021 9:16:42 GMT -5
A few years ago, when i was thinking refurbishing some wheels, i was going to try some HVAC duct work sealer. Drys hard yet flexible.  |
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Post by knave on Nov 17, 2021 9:18:07 GMT -5
NOoooooo not the gray pookie!! 😂
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AzRockGeek
has rocks in the head
Member since September 2016
Posts: 695
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Post by AzRockGeek on Nov 17, 2021 10:08:45 GMT -5
NOoooooo not the gray pookie!! 😂 LOL.... I deliberately left its trade name out to not scare people off.  |
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Post by mohs on Nov 17, 2021 11:08:35 GMT -5
don't knohs anything about gray pookie butte if as some grit give might just kush rough rocks |
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rewdownunder
spending too much on rocks
Member since March 2012
Posts: 357
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Post by rewdownunder on Nov 17, 2021 14:16:25 GMT -5
I think it's time for someone in the know to gather up all the refurbishing info in one place. Several members have been doing this for a while and must have some great knowledge. If Johnson Bros. can do it we should be able to do it in our garage. I am sure cutters and cabers overseas are not buying new laps and wheels all the time.
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zarguy
fully equipped rock polisher
Cedar City, Utah - rockhound heaven!
Member since December 2005
Posts: 1,791
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Post by zarguy on Nov 19, 2021 1:21:20 GMT -5
OK, In my Googling, I came across Flex Seal, a rubber paint.
It's available in a spray can, which probably wouldn't be ideal since you have to mix the diamond into the paint before applying it to the wheel.
I also comes in a 16 oz jar of liquid or goop for about $15. It takes 24-48 hrs to cure. I don't like that since it might droop while drying.
Does anyone have experience with it for re-coating wheels, or even other applications?
Lynn
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