NevadaBill
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,332
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Post by NevadaBill on Jul 6, 2019 11:30:33 GMT -5
Do you find that running your tumbled stones in Polish for extra days results in defects?
My last two batches which just finished polishing, both ran for twice their normal time. One in a Rotary, and the other in a Vibratory tumbler.
I found that any imperfections (crack, weaknesses in rock, etc) were greatly magnified, and that undercutting, and exaggeration of stone crevices or imperfections were had in both batches.
I was trying for some high level of shine. Instead, due to some normal imperfections found with rocks, I ended up with a pretty battered looking set of rocks, which mostly looked much better for wear prior to the Polish stage.
I have had this happen with 1200 grit before (when it was my polish), but my notes do not indicate that I have tried this (tumbling for 2x as long) before. The results where surprising.
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Post by pauls on Jul 6, 2019 16:09:31 GMT -5
Yes, I have had the same thing. I have had a peek saw a nice polish, put the lid back and run it for another day and the rocks looked battered, when I washed them and had a close look I always found a rock that had chipped or cracked in half and was scratching everything. I make it a rule now that nothing with defects gets to polish stage, it still happens sometimes though. The rejects get put aside for rework, or occasionaly a batch of crappy stuff that I put through all together. If they get a polish they go in the sand pit at our show for kids to hunt.
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Post by Rockindad on Jul 6, 2019 21:00:06 GMT -5
Have had it on some soft stones before and actually have it happening in my vibe right now with a couple of pieces of pretty soft Magnesite that are in AO polish (they were all "flawless" at the post 1000AO cleanout). With the soft stuff I've come to expect a loss of a couple pieces at each stage no matter how good of a job we did inspecting at/after coarse. Can't recall it ever happening with harder stones other than a stone breaking and that being the obvious cause of some scratches. We have done materials where we were expecting undercutting and it happened but it was most evident at the 500AO and 1000AO stages. What were you running?
Al
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NevadaBill
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,332
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Post by NevadaBill on Jul 7, 2019 19:23:44 GMT -5
I am still new at the tumbling game, and claim to be expert at nothing. I won't be doing write ups on technique or critiquing others work. This is a time for learning for me. And I have learned something with these two loads.
I can say that HEAT is a factor in vibratory tumbling.
My garage is 110+ (F) degrees in the latter parts of the day this summer, and I am seeing faster polishing results and better results in general. Surprising really.
Pulling the rocks out of the tumbler for infrequent inspection, they are very warm, to mildly hot, the rocks.
But really, TIME is the only new variable that I introduced to what has been a winning formula.
I agree with you that softer rocks definitely have imperfections exploited. The harder rocks, especially the perfect or near perfect ones are impressively polished on the other hand.
I flat out lost some cabochons in this load. Due to inexperience tumbling them mostly. They were suspect stones to begin with though. I should have handled them differently.
Just learning a little more every day.
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Post by Rockindad on Jul 7, 2019 19:37:53 GMT -5
I am still new at the tumbling game, and claim to be expert at nothing. I won't be doing write ups on technique or critiquing others work. This is a time for learning for me. And I have learned something with these two loads. I can say that HEAT is a factor in vibratory tumbling. My garage is 110+ (F) degrees in the latter parts of the day this summer, and I am seeing faster polishing results and better results in general. Surprising really.
Pulling the rocks out of the tumbler for infrequent inspection, they are very warm, to mildly hot, the rocks.
But really, TIME is the only new variable that I introduced to what has been a winning formula. I agree with you that softer rocks definitely have imperfections exploited. The harder rocks, especially the perfect or near perfect ones are impressively polished on the other hand. I flat out lost some cabochons in this load. Due to inexperience tumbling them mostly. They were suspect stones to begin with though. I should have handled them differently. Just learning a little more every day. This is really fascinating to me. Our equipment is in an unfinished basement that does not see big temperature swings. From 60 degrees in winter to 85 during the worst of summer it is relatively stable. Would really be interesting to see the difference between the same material done during your coolest and hottest seasons. Al
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NevadaBill
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Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,332
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Post by NevadaBill on Jul 8, 2019 8:42:10 GMT -5
Actually, I will be interested in noting them as well. When I started tumbling in November of last year, I didn't know how to properly operate the vibratory tumbler. Even in January when it is coldest out here I can't say for sure that I had my routine down yet. I was still experimenting.
We had a late spring here. But it usually hits 100 around April, but becomes a steady 100 in late May, and early June. Right around 5 weeks ago, I started to see the results change. Without changing a step or ingredient. I also noticed that it was getting hot in the garage and mounted a thermometer. The test rocks I would pull, were polished (done) a lot quicker than before. Like, almost 1/2 the time. It doesn't effect 1200 or below stages are much, but it still does.
I also now know that a load that is altered by unshapely, large flatter rocks (like 3+ inches wide) can disrupt the locomotion of the vibratory tumbler. It can make it more prone to freeze up solid (when not enough water), or stop motion temporarily as rocks juggle around in space to allow the big one(s) to go under. Note: This is the MT-4 only. I can't speak for the Lot-O.
Lack of good locomotion will retard the polishing. Proportioned, roundish rocks with a good amount of small ceramic media, with medium mixed in have the best locomotion. But it does not seem to effect the heat which is built up within the tumbler. So the best and fastest polished rocks, also seem to be the batches with the roundest and most evenly sized rocks too.
Several weeks ago I moved all the rotaries inside the house, when ambient temperature in the garage went to 110+ at times. I left the vibratory in the garage.
The only tumbler where I have seen results obviously different are with the vibratory. All tumblers though, which used Rock Shed AO Polish for twice the duration (14 days indoors, or 5-6 days outdoors) had the same problems described in my post above though. So it is not a heat thing. But a duration thing.
The experts on the boards did not chime in, and I know that some of them will rotary a Polish stage longer than 7-10 days. Which means that they, unlike me, do not run a high percentage of flawed stones. Because the problems are only noticeable with the non-perfect stones. Most of the experts don't attempt to polish stones with errors. The bad stones never make it that far. I on the other hand will polish a poor stone if it has character, if I think the stone is as good as it will ever be, before allowing it to be grind down to dust. The pro's here don't do that.
But I have learned something which effects my results from now on though.
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pizzano
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Member since February 2018
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Post by pizzano on Jul 8, 2019 10:59:47 GMT -5
Actually, I will be interested in noting them as well. When I started tumbling in November of last year, I didn't know how to properly operate the vibratory tumbler. Even in January when it is coldest out here I can't say for sure that I had my routine down yet. I was still experimenting. We had a late spring here. But it usually hits 100 around April, but becomes a steady 100 in late May, and early June. Right around 5 weeks ago, I started to see the results change. Without changing a step or ingredient. I also noticed that it was getting hot in the garage and mounted a thermometer. The test rocks I would pull, were polished (done) a lot quicker than before. Like, almost 1/2 the time. It doesn't effect 1200 or below stages are much, but it still does. I also now know that a load that is altered by unshapely, large flatter rocks (like 3+ inches wide) can disrupt the locomotion of the vibratory tumbler. It can make it more prone to freeze up solid (when not enough water), or stop motion temporarily as rocks juggle around in space to allow the big one(s) to go under. Note: This is the MT-4 only. I can't speak for the Lot-O. Lack of good locomotion will retard the polishing. Proportioned, roundish rocks with a good amount of small ceramic media, with medium mixed in have the best locomotion. But it does not seem to effect the heat which is built up within the tumbler. So the best and fastest polished rocks, also seem to be the batches with the roundest and most evenly sized rocks too. Several weeks ago I moved all the rotaries inside the house, when ambient temperature in the garage went to 110+ at times. I left the vibratory in the garage. The only tumbler where I have seen results obviously different are with the vibratory. All tumblers though, which used Rock Shed AO Polish for twice the duration (14 days indoors, or 5-6 days outdoors) had the same problems described in my post above though. So it is not a heat thing. But a duration thing. The experts on the boards did not chime in, and I know that some of them will rotary a Polish stage longer than 7-10 days. Which means that they, unlike me, do not run a high percentage of flawed stones. Because the problems are only noticeable with the non-perfect stones. Most of the experts don't attempt to polish stones with errors. The bad stones never make it that far. I on the other hand will polish a poor stone if it has character, if I think the stone is as good as it will ever be, before allowing it to be grind down to dust. The pro's here don't do that. But I have learned something which effects my results from now on though. Bill.........what you have experienced and detailed here, quite accurately, is the process most of us (amateur) and casual hobby rock rollers deal with in the beginning stages of our development. Some, like yourself, get up to speed and start recognizing more quickly, the finer details and more efficient applications that provide better & much better results. The key's to much of our success stories, as you have touched on, MOST often are related to the QUALITY of material, equipment and details which one acquires through the personal experiences, trials and tribulations of other's.........it also helps, as in my case and others like myself, to FILTER through the forum's more productive and active members success stories/results that most align with what we aspire to achieve, and pay close attention to the FINER details......! Depending on the level of success one cares to achieve and the amount of time it will take to meet those expectations, is (in some fashion) going to be related to the $ budget and amount of effort/interest one decides to invest in........as is the case with almost any endeavor we take interest in. As you eluded to, the "experts" and or "for profit" folks, (not unlike any other specialized environment), generally, are more than willing to share a certain level of knowledge and pass on a degree of friendly expertise/information (particularly on this forum) freely......however, on further inspection, the INTERESTED novice will discover (either quickly or over a period of time), through their own endeavors, "all that glitters is not gold"........that's when the rubber will meet the road for many of us and a decision will be required as to what extent we care to invest our interest.........obviously, a personal choice we each make. This forum has been a blessing for many of us who have taken a casual to more serious approach to the hobby.........quite a few "hobby" veterans and newbees, like yourself, honestly sharing the realities, pit-falls and options we have experienced, on the quest to satisfaction and enjoyment........in the spirit of transpairancy and education.......!
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NevadaBill
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,332
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Post by NevadaBill on Jul 8, 2019 11:31:23 GMT -5
I really agree with your post Pizzano.
One of my shortcomings is the reading part. I don't spend any time researching or reading old posts, and there is a massive collection of personal accounts which have tidbits of great information that can be taken. I am willing to bet that there are accounts similar to mine on the RTH, even. Possibly.
I wasn't really calling out the experts, and cannot attest to whether they sell their finished products or not. But I do believe that many of them carefully select and often trade for or pay money for their high quality material. I've done neither of those yet. Without research, I can only assume they are vastly more experienced with lesser quality stones and I am.
My original post was a question (vent) because I don't know better and looked for public consensus. I could not post my recent experience as a statement of fact, due to me being a novice. Which I have mentioned.
Yes, the reader should probably take the post for what it is.
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pizzano
Cave Dweller
Member since February 2018
Posts: 1,390
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Post by pizzano on Jul 8, 2019 13:59:51 GMT -5
Your continued follow-through's and thorough observations are what I really acknowledge.......not meant as a "calling-out" of the specific lack of "finer" details provided by other's more "invested" in the returns of their "investments"........however, there is a certain fact of "risk & reward" that paralell's the investment (time and money), that is not frequently mentioned to any extent.........the actual "study' of historical results and applications (it seems to me), tends to be more academically inspired by one's personal affection for such.......as we have all learned, particularly with this hobby, personal hands-on experience seems to be the most effect and rewarding educational application to success....! Simply stated, I personally enjoy your travels, observations, processes/applications and transparency by which you communicate and educate......."the good, the bad and the ugly" are all represented equally, which is refreshing (at least to me) within a public forum environment such as this......and we are not alone here, thank goodness.........some are just "invested" more than other's........
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Post by rockjunquie on Jul 8, 2019 16:16:09 GMT -5
Yes, NevadaBill is keeping it real. He asks great questions after obviously thinking and researching it for himself before hand. I enjoy his thought provoking posts.
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Post by victor1941 on Jul 8, 2019 17:41:13 GMT -5
NevadaBill, I run a UV-18 vibe and have found that good hard material that is well cushioned and does not undercut will usually give good results even if the cycle varies. Material that has variable hardness and flaws can often be tricky and difficult to vibe. My vibe, like yours, is in a very hot garage in Austin, Texas. I use a fan to help move air around the unit at all times. The fan and unit runs 24 hrs. for all cycles except the coarse grit stage and is turned off only at night during the first grind. I tumble almost exclusively cabs but sometimes add smaller shaped stones for a 7 year old boy next door. I understand your frustration because I have some very pretty Pom Pom material from Needle Peak, Tx. that will not vibe and will need to be hand finished. Part of the material is hard and part fibrous and might best be capped.
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NevadaBill
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,332
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Post by NevadaBill on Jul 9, 2019 19:09:20 GMT -5
Yes, NevadaBill is keeping it real. He asks great questions after obviously thinking and researching it for himself before hand. I enjoy his thought provoking posts. I tend to be slow, naive, blunt, and transparent. None of the management brainwashing classes I took really rubbed off on me. And I was sick during political correctness week. Just happy to be around actually.
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Post by rockjunquie on Jul 9, 2019 19:10:14 GMT -5
Yes, NevadaBill is keeping it real. He asks great questions after obviously thinking and researching it for himself before hand. I enjoy his thought provoking posts. I tend to be slow, naive, blunt, and transparent. None of the management brainwashing classes I took really rubbed off on me. And I was sick during political correctness week. Just happy to be around actually. LOL! Perfect.
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
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Post by jamesp on Jul 9, 2019 19:35:25 GMT -5
Heat has a negative effect on most abrasive slurries. Industrial abrasive operations use climate control for this reason. Try to relocate to a cooler space. Avoid direct sunlight. ETA Thinking about this heat subject further. Consider the winners of the tumbling contests. They had to have a fine polish to win. Most of the winners have their vibes in the basement or lived in the cooler northern US. Chicago Dave, Drummond Island Chuck, Jugglerguy Rob were winners and tumbled in the basement if memory serves. Those guys always have fine tumbles. Looking at RTH member's tumbler locations related to temperature may reveal more about this subject. In my case my vibes were located in a hot greenhouse in Georgia. Borax was not an alternative during the summer unless water was sprayed in the vibe like every 4 hours. So I used sugar in the vibe like 2 veteran mentors one located in Florida and the other in Georgia suggested. I finally dropped the Borax and adjusted the dose for sugar year round. Sugar works well as a vibe additive in hot situations. The slurry gets thinner as the heat increases. Less water in summer, more water in winter. Sugar also works well when the dose is increased along with more water requiring much less water additions. Unlike Borax that has to be run with minimal water to get the correct slurry viscosity. Considering rotaries I used white PVC barrels for years next to a shady wall in the greenhouse that cast shade on the rotary tumbler except during summer when the sun was high. A few years ago I replaced the white PVC with black HDPE barrels. When the hot summer sun cast on these black barrels I could not put my hand in the barrels in the afternoon due to high temp. Had to be at least 130F inside the barrels. So I moved the tumblers outside under a shady shed. Which eliminated the ability to use the rotaries during the winter due to freezing. The high temps never had much impact on the rotary performance using the white barrels. But the black barrels being so hot started to create gas constantly. Especially when coarse grinding glass. The rubber caps were bulging every 24 hours in late afternoon on sunny days and had to be burped almost daily. I got tired of blowing the caps off forcing me to relocated the tumbler to an open air shady shed. North facing wall of hot greenhouse: North facing wall of open air covered shed:
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Post by victor1941 on Jul 10, 2019 14:01:59 GMT -5
NevadaBill, it is an interesting topic that you brought up about heat and James adding that it affects the tumble viscosity based on what additive is used. I have used borax in all stages since the beginning about 5 years ago and just watched carefully and often to keep movement correct and not realizing that the slurry is changing also because of the air and friction temperature fluctuation in the mix. As I said in my earlier reply I run a fan during the summer to hopefully keep the vibe motor cooler and never thought about the slurry temperature. I also have no idea if the fan is of any benefit.
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NevadaBill
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,332
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Post by NevadaBill on Jul 11, 2019 11:00:47 GMT -5
Thank you jamesp. I will bring the vibratory tumbler in doors as well. I appreciate the advice victor1941, and also think the fan has had a positive impact.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jul 11, 2019 18:35:06 GMT -5
victor1941 NevadaBillThe Vibrasonic has a 3600 1/3hp motor encased in a cast box just below the hopper and gets really hot as it is on a cool day. Great design for freezing temps. It did not take long to see effects of heat on slurry. Thankfully the hopper cap seals well containing moisture but slurry degradation is effected by several factors one being temp.
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