jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,159
|
Post by jamesp on Nov 14, 2019 4:53:25 GMT -5
A good example of a powerful vibe barely able to rotate the batch due to a heavy sticky sugar slurry and AO 14,000 polish. No bouncy bruises or chattering, glued together tight and putting the serious elbow grease on these glass tumbles.
Note the left side has a slower action, it attains polish sooner. Both sides polished in 18 hours after 3 days in vibe w/AO 220.
The top layer is where the bruises usually occur and fine end polish gets damaged in a vibe due to bouncing and chattering. The bottom section is where the most weight is and the most grinding pressure is located. And the least bouncing if any(or you will have problems). Hoppers like the Lot-O with a tall hopper are probably the better design for higher and safer grinding forces.(taller than wide).
Same sticky game with the 3 day AO 220 run. The grey color is due to the AO 220 wearing a thin layer of steel away from the steel hopper.
|
|
|
Post by TheRock on Nov 14, 2019 6:54:34 GMT -5
That's the damnedest eerrrr I mean Sweetest thing I have ever seen, Jimminey Christmas If I knew you were coming over Id bake a Cake!!
|
|
|
Post by HankRocks on Nov 14, 2019 7:54:14 GMT -5
A good example of a powerful vibe barely able to rotate the batch due to a heavy sticky sugar slurry and AO 14,000 polish. No bouncy bruises or chattering, glued together tight and putting the serious elbow grease on these glass tumbles. Note the left side has a slower action, it attains polish sooner. Both sides polished in 18 hours after 3 days in vibe w/AO 220. The top layer is where the bruises usually occur and fine end polish gets damaged in a vibe due to bouncing and chattering. The bottom section is where the most weight is and the most grinding pressure is located. And the least bouncing if any(or you will have problems). Hoppers like the Lot-O with a tall hopper are probably the better design for higher and safer grinding forces.(taller than wide). Same sticky game with the 3 day AO 220 run. The grey color is due to the AO 220 wearing a thin layer of steel away from the steel hopper. Duhhhh!, the light bulb in my head finally clicked on. Of course polishing is quicker in the slow mover as the contact time between rocks is longer, less high pressure impacts, more steady slow (almost a rubbing effect) contact. That would be even more important with the glass, or in my case the Obsidian pendants with their thin edges. The dial control on the Mini-Sonic let's me slow the action down as in your video. Every once in while I manage to get a new idea into this old gray head!!
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,159
|
Post by jamesp on Nov 14, 2019 10:44:17 GMT -5
Or even better HankRocks add more sugar and enough water to thicken the slurry to make it even stickier and then crank up the Minisonic up faster for higher rubbing pressure. This is why I like sugar in the vibe. I add as much sugar to get the slurry the thickest possible yet maintain circulation. Then I record this amount of sugar so the recipe is a routine. This kills the damaging bouncing effect. The no bounce policy almost forces the use of sticky slurry. Slight bouncing is ok but why not stop it completely. In my twin section 4 pound hopper it takes 4 tablespoon of sugar and 1/2 tablespoon of any AO in each 4 pound section and a fixed measure of water. Same concept but more effective in a rotary 'tumbler'. Convert it to a 'rotary rubber' - connect the rocks together with sticky slurry to reduce wasted tumbling action. Rocks don't wear down tumbling across each other, they wear from rubbing against each other.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,159
|
Post by jamesp on Nov 14, 2019 10:53:49 GMT -5
That's the damnedest eerrrr I mean Sweetest thing I have ever seen, Jimminey Christmas If I knew you were coming over Id bake a Cake!! I have nasty rusty solid steel vibe hoppers Bob, I can't be eating no cake. You's guys should know better. Check out the tall 35 pound hopper sitting on a universal Vibrasonic base. grrrr, get er done. It uses UV vibes for slurry lol.
|
|
|
Post by HankRocks on Nov 14, 2019 11:07:32 GMT -5
Or even better HankRocks add more sugar and enough water to thicken the slurry to make it even stickier and then crank up the Minisonic up faster for higher rubbing pressure. This is why I like sugar in the vibe. I add as much sugar to get the slurry the thickest possible yet maintain circulation. Then I record this amount of sugar so the recipe is a routine. This kills the damaging bouncing effect. The no bounce policy almost forces the use of sticky slurry. Slight bouncing is ok but why not stop it completely. In my twin section 4 pound hopper it takes 4 tablespoon of sugar and 1/2 tablespoon of any AO in each 4 pound section and a fixed measure of water. Same concept but more effective in a rotary 'tumbler'. Convert it to a 'rotary rubber' - connect the rocks together with sticky slurry to reduce wasted tumbling action. Rocks don't wear down tumbling across each other, they wear from rubbing against each other. For now I am going to skip the sugar. The main reason is that I re-use polish and having to dry out, or concentrate a syrupy sweet liquid will be a insect magnet, especially the national bird of Houston, the tree roach. I do understand the principal and I will try and duplicate it by adding more polish and turning the motion down with the controls. All Quartz, Obsidian. Tigerseye will use the Mini-Sonic. Regular Agate and Pet Wood will go into the UV-18. Bought 5 pounds of AO polish a couple of years ago and there is still some left. About every 2 or 3 polish runs I add a tablespoon to the used polish batch. Now I am still pondering how to best use the Rockette. Will probably adjust the vibration rate down a bit and maybe try it out for polishing several large pieces, maybe 6 or 7 of large( 1/2 to 1 pound), the rest pea gravel and lot's of polish slurry. Thanks for your continued contribution to the "idea/info pool" Henry
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,159
|
Post by jamesp on Nov 14, 2019 11:36:42 GMT -5
Or even better HankRocks add more sugar and enough water to thicken the slurry to make it even stickier and then crank up the Minisonic up faster for higher rubbing pressure. This is why I like sugar in the vibe. I add as much sugar to get the slurry the thickest possible yet maintain circulation. Then I record this amount of sugar so the recipe is a routine. This kills the damaging bouncing effect. The no bounce policy almost forces the use of sticky slurry. Slight bouncing is ok but why not stop it completely. In my twin section 4 pound hopper it takes 8 tablespoon of sugar and 1 tablespoon of any AO in each 4 pound section and a fixed measure of water. Same concept but more effective in a rotary 'tumbler'. Convert it to a 'rotary rubber' - connect the rocks together with sticky slurry to reduce wasted tumbling action. Rocks don't wear down tumbling across each other, they wear from rubbing against each other. For now I am going to skip the sugar. The main reason is that I re-use polish and having to dry out, or concentrate a syrupy sweet liquid will be a insect magnet, especially the national bird of Houston, the tree roach. I do understand the principal and I will try and duplicate it by adding more polish and turning the motion down with the controls. All Quartz, Obsidian. Tigerseye will use the Mini-Sonic. Regular Agate and Pet Wood will go into the UV-18. Bought 5 pounds of AO polish a couple of years ago and there is still some left. About every 2 or 3 polish runs I add a tablespoon to the used polish batch. Now I am still pondering how to best use the Rockette. Will probably adjust the vibration rate down a bit and maybe try it out for polishing several large pieces, maybe 6 or 7 of large( 1/2 to 1 pound), the rest pea gravel and lot's of polish slurry. Thanks for your continued contribution to the "idea/info pool" Henry Do you use Borax to thicken slurry ? Thickening slurry with polish can prolong the polish breakdown just saying. It does make a fine slurry consistency. Polish can break down from 14,000 to probable 50,000 or even smaller in time for those super wet polishes. I try to use as little abrasive as possible to get the job done.
|
|
NRG
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since February 2018
Posts: 1,630
|
Post by NRG on Nov 15, 2019 14:11:18 GMT -5
Do you use Borax to thicken slurry ? Thickening slurry with polish can prolong the polish breakdown just saying. It does make a fine slurry consistency. Polish can break down from 14,000 to probable 50,000 or even smaller in time for those super wet polishes. I try to use as little abrasive as possible to get the job done. I have played around with borax a bit in the last year. Not tumbling, but just investigating what it does with water. This partly because I was considering home made laundry soaps. Nonetheless, I don't feel it "thickens" which I define as increased viscosity. It anything, it seems to break surface tension. Like a soap, and may actually lower viscosity. I don't have a meter to test this.a To this I will add my personal experience with polish on sphere machines. We make a slurry like a malted milk shake and apply that to the subject ball being polished. The bazillions of tiny cuts made by each and every polish particle makes quite a bit of heat. So much so that the ball can be hot to the touch when polished. This heat, evaporates the water from the slurry and we occasionally drip water to reconstitute the slurry. Some students at class try to go with very little polish and what I get in 30 minutes takes them all night. This is on a sphere machine and doesn't exactly apply to a vibe because the vines operares so much faster, using less could be the right call. In fact, literally nobody has a right to criticize your polishes. Thanks for sharing all your knowledge.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,159
|
Post by jamesp on Nov 15, 2019 15:46:07 GMT -5
Do you use Borax to thicken slurry ? Thickening slurry with polish can prolong the polish breakdown just saying. It does make a fine slurry consistency. Polish can break down from 14,000 to probable 50,000 or even smaller in time for those super wet polishes. I try to use as little abrasive as possible to get the job done. I have played around with borax a bit in the last year. Not tumbling, but just investigating what it does with water. This partly because I was considering home made laundry soaps. Nonetheless, I don't feel it "thickens" which I define as increased viscosity. It anything, it seems to break surface tension. Like a soap, and may actually lower viscosity. I don't have a meter to test this.a To this I will add my personal experience with polish on sphere machines. We make a slurry like a malted milk shake and apply that to the subject ball being polished. The bazillions of tiny cuts made by each and every polish particle makes quite a bit of heat. So much so that the ball can be hot to the touch when polished. This heat, evaporates the water from the slurry and we occasionally drip water to reconstitute the slurry. Some students at class try to go with very little polish and what I get in 30 minutes takes them all night. This is on a sphere machine and doesn't exactly apply to a vibe because the vines operares so much faster, using less could be the right call. In fact, literally nobody has a right to criticize your polishes. Thanks for sharing all your knowledge. What the hell is Borax ? A rock that dissolves in water ? Must be mined in California joking ! What kind of a rock would ever dissolve in water. Borax is a freakazoid substance if there ever was one IMO. Tastes terrible. It must break surface tension like a soap and is certainly slick to assist lubrication in tumblers. Book says it dissolves in water 5.8 grams to 100 ml water. Book says 5.8% with no units OK ?. Scott questions that it thickens. Wrong thing to say to engineer(take everything to extreme, find the limit !), byGod I'll mix 50% water 50% Borax and see. 50% will certainly not dissolve in water but a lot of it should stay in suspension/emulsification if in powder form, wet and constantly agitated. Clay or rock particles making a wet tumbling slurry does not dissolve in water but will make a thick slurry/emulsification if agitated or rotated or mixed constantly. Same principle. Another example is HankRocks adding more polish to thicken his slurry. As long as it is agitated and kept moist like the situation you mentioned with your sphere machine all should be well. On the subject of using lots of polish - take it too to the extreme again. If you use 5 times more polish than is necessary it should take quite a bit longer to break down ALL the excess polish. Who knows the best quantity ? Hopefully someone whom has done testing. The Lot-O is a new machine with lots of modern opinion. I believe it uses one tablespoon for 4 pounds correct me if wrong. I personally use one tablespoon for 4 pounds rock in the vibe rasonic. The old Vibrasonic instructions says 10 cc polish per pound of rock which is 2.7 tablespoons for 4 pounds of rock. 2.7 times more than I use but you insinuated my 1 tbs/4 lb. polishes are good thank you. Vibes and wheels not apples for apples so that may be a mystery comparison. Vibrasonic instructions like 50 years ago. Lower right corner, should read 10 cc(.67 tablespoons) per pound of rock. They omitted typing in 'per pound of rock'. Old tumbling instructions seemed to suggest heavier doses of finishing abrasives for some reason. Vibrasonic instructions has lots of valuable points made by the old school lapidary gang, like "agates polish faster than softer materials" and "IMPORTANT: Do not attempt to run this (polish) cycle too thin damn it. Load must be coated with friggin "batter" like solution to obtain optimum results." With out the "batter' you rocks will bounce around like Mexican jumping beans and get the hell beat out of them. Well, I reworded it a bit. Vibrasonic instructions for those interested: www.flickr.com/photos/67205364@N06/albums/72157657508458549/with/20975586482/
|
|
|
Post by HankRocks on Nov 15, 2019 18:27:34 GMT -5
I have played around with borax a bit in the last year. Not tumbling, but just investigating what it does with water. This partly because I was considering home made laundry soaps. Nonetheless, I don't feel it "thickens" which I define as increased viscosity. It anything, it seems to break surface tension. Like a soap, and may actually lower viscosity. I don't have a meter to test this.a To this I will add my personal experience with polish on sphere machines. We make a slurry like a malted milk shake and apply that to the subject ball being polished. The bazillions of tiny cuts made by each and every polish particle makes quite a bit of heat. So much so that the ball can be hot to the touch when polished. This heat, evaporates the water from the slurry and we occasionally drip water to reconstitute the slurry. Some students at class try to go with very little polish and what I get in 30 minutes takes them all night. This is on a sphere machine and doesn't exactly apply to a vibe because the vines operares so much faster, using less could be the right call. In fact, literally nobody has a right to criticize your polishes. Thanks for sharing all your knowledge. What the hell is Borax ? A rock that dissolves in water ? Must be mined in California joking ! What kind of a rock would ever dissolve in water. Borax is a freakazoid substance if there ever was one IMO. Tastes terrible. It must break surface tension like a soap and is certainly slick to assist lubrication in tumblers. Book says it dissolves in water 5.8 grams to 100 ml water. Book says 5.8% with no units OK ?. Scott questions that it thickens. Wrong thing to say to engineer(take everything to extreme, find the limit !), byGod I'll mix 50% water 50% Borax and see. 50% will certainly not dissolve in water but a lot of it should stay in suspension/emulsification if in powder form, wet and constantly agitated. Clay or rock particles making a wet tumbling slurry does not dissolve in water but will make a thick slurry/emulsification if agitated or rotated or mixed constantly. Same principle. Another example is HankRocks adding more polish to thicken his slurry. As long as it is agitated and kept moist like the situation you mentioned with your sphere machine all should be well. On the subject of using lots of polish - take it too to the extreme again. If you use 5 times more polish than is necessary it should take quite a bit longer to break down ALL the excess polish. Who knows the best quantity ? Hopefully someone whom has done testing. The Lot-O is a new machine with lots of modern opinion. I believe it uses one tablespoon for 4 pounds correct me if wrong. I personally use one tablespoon for 4 pounds rock in the vibe rasonic. The old Vibrasonic instructions says 10 cc polish per pound of rock which is 2.7 tablespoons for 4 pounds of rock. 2.7 times more than I use but you insinuated my 1 tbs/4 lb. polishes are good thank you. Vibes and wheels not apples for apples so that may be a mystery comparison. Vibrasonic instructions like 50 years ago. Lower right corner, should read 10 cc(.67 tablespoons) per pound of rock. They omitted typing in 'per pound of rock'. Old tumbling instructions seemed to suggest heavier doses of finishing abrasives for some reason. Vibrasonic instructions has lots of valuable points made by the old school lapidary gang, like "agates polish faster than softer materials" and "IMPORTANT: Do not attempt to run this (polish) cycle too thin damn it. Load must be coated with friggin "batter" like solution to obtain optimum results." With out the "batter' you rocks will bounce around like Mexican jumping beans and get the hell beat out of them. Well, I reworded it a bit. Vibrasonic instructions for those interested: www.flickr.com/photos/67205364@N06/albums/72157657508458549/with/20975586482/I have a few comments on this topic. Just got home from Show setup I am tired- throwing supper together so maybe tomorrow or Sunday morning response. Getting old sucks!!!
|
|
|
Post by oregon on Nov 16, 2019 15:49:41 GMT -5
A good example of a powerful vibe barely able to rotate the batch due to a heavy sticky sugar slurry and AO 14,000 polish. No bouncy bruises or chattering, glued together tight and putting the serious elbow grease on these glass tumbles. Note the left side has a slower action, it attains polish sooner. Both sides polished in 18 hours after 3 days in vibe w/AO 220. The top layer is where the bruises usually occur and fine end polish gets damaged in a vibe due to bouncing and chattering. The bottom section is where the most weight is and the most grinding pressure is located. And the least bouncing if any(or you will have problems). Hoppers like the Lot-O with a tall hopper are probably the better design for higher and safer grinding forces.(taller than wide). Same sticky game with the 3 day AO 220 run. The grey color is due to the AO 220 wearing a thin layer of steel away from the steel hopper.
Just pondering, but if the viscosity is gluing things together, could the same be achieved by lessening the amplitude of the vibe? f=ma, have to think about how amplitude and acceleration are related in the vibe, how the 'glue' might make the individual rock feel more force from the collection. ie the glue probably also effects the m term?
inelastic,elastic collisions and all that, have to dig out text books, or just follow the lotto recipe
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,159
|
Post by jamesp on Nov 17, 2019 8:18:45 GMT -5
A good example of a powerful vibe barely able to rotate the batch due to a heavy sticky sugar slurry and AO 14,000 polish. No bouncy bruises or chattering, glued together tight and putting the serious elbow grease on these glass tumbles. Note the left side has a slower action, it attains polish sooner. Both sides polished in 18 hours after 3 days in vibe w/AO 220. The top layer is where the bruises usually occur and fine end polish gets damaged in a vibe due to bouncing and chattering. The bottom section is where the most weight is and the most grinding pressure is located. And the least bouncing if any(or you will have problems). Hoppers like the Lot-O with a tall hopper are probably the better design for higher and safer grinding forces.(taller than wide). Same sticky game with the 3 day AO 220 run. The grey color is due to the AO 220 wearing a thin layer of steel away from the steel hopper. Just pondering, but if the viscosity is gluing things together, could the same be achieved by lessening the amplitude of the vibe? f=ma, have to think about how amplitude and acceleration are related in the vibe, how the 'glue' might make the individual rock feel more force from the collection. ie the glue probably also effects the m term?
inelastic,elastic collisions and all that, have to dig out text books, or just follow the lotto recipe It was a balancing act oregon. I did lesson the amplitude on the Vibrasonic by making a much heavier hopper. And increased the slurry thickness. The stock Vibrasonic lightweight aluminum hopper had too large of an amplitude causing bruises even with a real thick slurry. But it also has plenty of power, enough power to vibrate both heavier hopper and rocks in the thickest/stickiest slurry. After mods it would polish obsidian with 2 steps and only 20% media in 6 days from the rotary in SiC 220. Without bruises. I had several hundred pounds of glass to tumble polish so their was motivation to increase production rates. Conclusion was that it takes a lot of power to handle thick slurry and low amplitude to polish slow-to-polish softer materials. The Lot-O did not like the thick slurry. Not even half as thick, it would lock up and the action would freeze. It has a 1/20 hp motor as opposed to the 1/3 hp motor in the Vibrasonic and the damn thing raised the power bill too. I am not sure how long it takes the Lot-O to do obsidian out of the rotary in SiC 220 but guessing it is longer than 6 days and requires about 50% media. Not bashing the Lot-O. Just saying that controlled copious power and thick slurry is key to polishing soft materials with minimal media efficiently. The oversea commercial tumblers us powerful tub vibes to tumble polish calcite, apatite, fluorite, etc. And they too use thick slurries; it is the key to success on these softer rocks.
|
|
tkvancil
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since September 2011
Posts: 1,546
|
Post by tkvancil on Nov 21, 2019 10:57:56 GMT -5
I get the exact same effect in a UV18 with 1 tsp. psyllium fiber. And since the psyllium is also lubricating I rarely have to add water.
More than one way to skin a cat as they say ....
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,159
|
Post by jamesp on Nov 22, 2019 23:59:07 GMT -5
I get the exact same effect in a UV18 with 1 tsp. psyllium fiber. And since the psyllium is also lubricating I rarely have to add water. More than one way to skin a cat as they say .... Some vibes have the motor under the hopper making a lot of heat tk. This can dry the slurry in a hurry . Nice you found psyllium to be low maintenance. You have your way with polishing soft rocks.
|
|
nantucketdink
off to a rocking start
Member since February 2022
Posts: 16
|
Post by nantucketdink on Sept 10, 2023 7:04:27 GMT -5
I realize this thread is 4 years old, but I was still having issues with damage in my prepolish and polish stages in my minisonic 14. Spend months and months in the rotary getting them all totally perfect. 120/220 stage in the minisonic always goes great. 500or 600 sic in the minisonic no problems. Its the AO 1000 and AO polish stages that I was having issues with. Actually, even when doing AO 220 and AO 500 stages I would get damage. Something about SIC seems to prevent it. No matter how much borax, dish soap, or metumucil I played with I still got damage. At least 50 percent mixed sizes already rounded ceramics in the prepolish and polish stages. Yes I had more than one bigger rock in the mix typically, but we are talking 2-3 inchers max not boulders. I have been experimenting with sugar the last couple rounds and it seems to have solved my issues. A cup of sugar really locks the whole thing all together. Just sharing my newly "discovered" experiences with sugar in the MT-14 Minisonic prepolish and polish stages. Thanks for having this thread here to find!
|
|
dillonf
fully equipped rock polisher
Hounding and tumbling
Member since February 2022
Posts: 1,595
|
Post by dillonf on Sept 10, 2023 17:26:02 GMT -5
HMM . . . this is very interesting. I have been actively trying to get circulation about ~1.5x faster than what is being shown on the right in the first video above. If my circulation stopped like what has happened on the left I'd think I had a problem? This makes me wonder if I've been going about it all wrong??
|
|
waterboysh
spending too much on rocks
Member since April 2021
Posts: 369
|
Post by waterboysh on Sept 11, 2023 8:46:18 GMT -5
|
|