EricD
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High in the Mountains
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Post by EricD on Dec 4, 2019 19:52:45 GMT -5
I ran some large cylindrical ceramic media (3/8 x 5/8 taper cut) in my rotary with SiC 60/90 (I forget why I did that), but anyhow. Some of them turned grey. Not many of them.
Does this indicate they are porous and shouldn't be used for trying to get an awesome polish on stones?
Also, is it normal for them to have large black flecks in them? Around 1mm.
I'm going to be buying some more, enough to have a good amount for just SiC 150/220, and then another amount designated for AO 500 + polish stages in the vibe. But I was just curious.
And some corn cob for dry tumbling.
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Post by RocksInNJ on Dec 4, 2019 22:39:05 GMT -5
You may have ran them to use in other stages other than the course grind. If I remember correctly, you don’t want to use fresh ceramics in the 2nd or later stages. Though with ceramics, you can run them from stage to stage unlike plastic beads. Just thought I’d mention this in case you were unaware or forgot. There’s so much to take in here, that I often forget a lot myself.
Not sure about your original question, but I’m sure the experts will be along in no time.
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gatorflash1
spending too much on rocks
Active in Delaware Mineralogical Society, Cabchon Grinding and Polishing, 2 Thumlers B's and a UV-18
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Post by gatorflash1 on Dec 5, 2019 8:48:28 GMT -5
I wouldn't worry about it. Did the tumbled stones look okay after completing the stage with the ceramic media? If so your ceramic media is okay. The black specs are probably flaking off a new tumbler bowl which is common. Did you get the black specs floating on top of the slurry when you finished the stage?
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EricD
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Post by EricD on Dec 5, 2019 9:22:03 GMT -5
I wouldn't worry about it. Did the tumbled stones look okay after completing the stage with the ceramic media? If so your ceramic media is okay. The black specs are probably flaking off a new tumbler bowl which is common. Did you get the black specs floating on top of the slurry when you finished the stage? The rocks took a nice polish in AO 500, so I didn't do the polish stage (yet, anyway).
The black flecks are embedded in the ceramics, and are revealed as they wear down slowly. Most likely impurities I guess. I'm just hoping they are not abrasive impurities. The tumbler barrel is rubber and I don't see any bits of rubber anywhere when I tumble, after the initial run when it was brand new.
When I do a cleanout today I will take a few photos
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Fossilman
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Post by Fossilman on Dec 5, 2019 10:27:34 GMT -5
I run my ceramics through every stage, it doesn't bother them one bit...
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JBe
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2019
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Post by JBe on Dec 5, 2019 11:00:35 GMT -5
I run the same ceramics through every stage after rough. Some of them turn grey randomly.
Fresh ceramics always get a run through at least one 220 stage before any other finer stages.
I've never noticed any negative effects.
I've also used them in the rough tumbler for softer stones. It didn't cause any problems but the courser grit wears the ceramics faster.
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Post by aDave on Dec 5, 2019 13:30:44 GMT -5
I wouldn't worry about it. Did the tumbled stones look okay after completing the stage with the ceramic media? If so your ceramic media is okay. The black specs are probably flaking off a new tumbler bowl which is common. Did you get the black specs floating on top of the slurry when you finished the stage? The rocks took a nice polish in AO 500, so I didn't do the polish stage (yet, anyway).
The black flecks are embedded in the ceramics, and are revealed as they wear down slowly. Most likely impurities I guess. I'm just hoping they are not abrasive impurities. The tumbler barrel is rubber and I don't see any bits of rubber anywhere when I tumble, after the initial run when it was brand new.
When I do a cleanout today I will take a few photos
If I recall correctly, what you are describing indicates you may have abrasive ceramics. I don't have the specs on them, but I would only reserve those for a coarse grind, especially if you don't know the size of the grit that's embedded in them. Where did you get the ceramics?
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EricD
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Post by EricD on Dec 5, 2019 15:31:33 GMT -5
Here are a few photos showing some that turned grey and you can see the flecks of dark material in a lot of the media I purchased all of the large and half of the small from rocktumbler.com and the other half of the small from the rock shed. FWIW I don't think any of the small media I got from the rock shed displays any abnormalities or discoloration.
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Post by aDave on Dec 5, 2019 18:43:43 GMT -5
While I can't say for sure, I don't know if those are abrasive or not, as I've never used or purchased the material. Most ceramic abrasives are used in metal finishing/deburring, but since you bought your stuff from lapidary suppliers, I would actually be surprised if those were abrasive. Perhaps an email or phone call to your vendors might alleviate your concern(s). Just for grins, I did a search and came up with this page where abrasives are sold. In the photo gallery below the main photo, there is a photo of some abrasive cylinders. While similar in appearance, they don't quite look the same as yours, as the flecks in theirs appears to be more prevalent, IMHO. Perhaps jamesp can offer an opinion.
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EricD
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High in the Mountains
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Post by EricD on Dec 5, 2019 19:19:03 GMT -5
Yeah, the particles are not very uniform in size or density. I got a nice polish in AO 500 with them so I'm not really concerned, just wondering what the heck. They certainly were all pure white when new.
I just ordered 5lbs more from Shawn at The Rock Shed. Perhaps his are higher quality.
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Post by aDave on Dec 5, 2019 20:00:02 GMT -5
Yeah, the particles are not very uniform in size or density. I got a nice polish in AO 500 with them so I'm not really concerned, just wondering what the heck. They certainly were all pure white when new. I just ordered 5lbs more from Shawn at The Rock Shed. Perhaps his are higher quality. I did not realize you went that far with the ceramics you have. I thought you'd only done 60/90 with the stuff. Considering your results, and the fact the media does not look the same as the abrasive laden material, keep on rolling.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Dec 11, 2019 3:35:06 GMT -5
This is one explanation for black specks in ceramic media EricD aDave2nd paragraph - www.pfonline.com/articles/aluminum-oxide-impregnation(1)"Fused aluminum oxide is made by fusing iron filings with alumina in an electric arc furnace. This is the black granular stuff used for roofing and floor grit, grinding wheels, and, you guessed it, the little black specks you see in tumbling media. It gives the cutting power to the media." Ceramic media is most commonly fused aluminum oxide because it is cheap and effective. Other ceramics are zirconium oxide, or tin oxide and others. However fused aluminum oxide media that is fused with silicon carbide will have black specks in it too. 100's of grades and compositions of ceramic media from aggressive to polish so beware. Ceramic media sold at rock tumbling stores are polish grade thankfully. Buying rogue ceramic media is a bad idea. If it is an aggressive grade you will not only never get a polish but will kiss your vibe barrel goodbye. If it is high density aggressive cutting zirconium oxide media it will really eat you vibe barrel fast. High density ceramic media throws a harder punch/vibration(i.e. shot peening). Known for bending soft metal parts in a metal finishing vibe. A 4 pound Lot-O will hold about 9 pounds of zirconium oxide media which would probably break it's springs. Agate has 2.7 density, ZO about 6.2. 6.2/2.7 x 4 = 9 pounds. AO density is only 3.9. Steel is 7.9. I don't use ceramics. They take longer than softer Mohs 7 media to get 500-1000-polish finishes because it is so hard at Mohs 9. To each his own.
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Post by fernwood on Dec 11, 2019 6:01:59 GMT -5
I received some well used, small triangle ceramic media as part of a bulk purchase. The ceramics had black particles in them. SEller told me that the black flecks were in the media when they were new. I separated the used and new ceramics. Now have stage specific. Some now have a high polish.
I do not use them for every tumble, only some.
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einholt
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since May 2019
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Post by einholt on Dec 11, 2019 9:29:22 GMT -5
I bought my ceramics from the same source and mine have the same discoloration/specks. Since I'd never used ceramics before, I thought it was the norm. I was able to see it when they were wet, before I tumbled anything with them.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Dec 11, 2019 10:13:08 GMT -5
I have tried to understand the effects of using harder media and softer media fernwood. This is the best I could figure: I ran into a minor issue running ceramics when doing AO 220 and AO polish in the vibe with glass. I ran many loads of glass. They were all consistent, 3 days AO 220 and 18 hours AO 14,000 polish out of the rotary. Like 60 loads all using Mohs 7 quartz pea gravel. If I used Rock Shed Mohs 9 ceramics it consistently took 5 days AO 220 and 3 days AO 14,000. I think I know why. The only real difference is that ceramics are Mohs 9 and the pea gravel is Mohs 7. I suggest using the same media for a given batch be it ceramic or quartz start to finish during 220-500-1000-polish(or what ever steps are used to get to polish). So that the media shares the same finish as the target rocks for each step. An example of why the media should be run with each step: If fresh un-tumbled ceramic media is added straight out of the box to a batch ready for polish the rough ceramics will sure scratch your pre-polish to shreds. That's a fact. Had the ceramic media been pre-polished it would help to polish the batch. So if you use hard media it will likely take longer to reach a 220-500-1000-polish surface finish. Softer media attains a 220-500-1000-polish surface finish quicker. The hard media is likely slowing down each step it is used. Especially when the hopper is full of soft material like glass. There is another issue. Glass is not hard enough to break down aluminum oxide quickly, if it can at all. So a percentage of(some type of) harder media must be added to assist breaking down the aluminum oxide. How hard ? In my experience Mohs 7 media is plenty hard enough but it is quick to assume the finish needed for each step. Assume you had ceramic media made of fused 220 grit diamonds. (This same situation arises with Mohs 7 or Mohs 9 media.) It would stay with a 220 finish probably no matter how long you used it to tumble with because the diamonds are way too hard for Mohs 7 rocks to dull them.(with exception) It's only use would be to grind a 220 finish on your rocks.(with exception) The exception - if the diamond media was run *together long enough it should smooth each other(only diamond can cut diamond) eventually which brings up another unknown. Ceramic media running with ceramic media will speed the finish on ceramic media because it is very hard. The higher percentage of ceramic media used in a batch will help speed the abrasion(smoothing) of the ceramic media. But you are using up more space in you hopper if you add more media. Best to use as little media as needed to get the job done. All this is theory but I tried both on many repetitive loads of glass and the Mohs 7 media outperformed the Mohs 9 ceramic media by a long shot. The media needs to be matched for the hardness of the rocks and the abrasives being used. And I tried 10%, 20%, 30%, 40%, 50% media - what is the minimum amount needed ? I needed to know, I had much glass to polish. One of the most used Lot-O recipes asks for 50% ceramic media for obsidian just saying. And a long schedule with several steps. I need to try 25% quartz media in this Lot-O recipe. I think you will improve the speed and would be able to reduce the steps. Guessing softer media and softer abrasive is used when tumble polishing Mohs 4 fluorite. I see tumble polished fluorite, our overseas neighbors do it all the time.
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Post by fernwood on Dec 11, 2019 10:31:17 GMT -5
Great explanation jamesp. I received some never used,larger ceramics in the purchase. Those were much softer than the smaller ones. Not all ceramic tumbling media is the same hardness. The unused ones are about a 5 mohs. I feel it is all about checking hardness of ceramics, even new purchases. Listening to those with more experience than you. Documenting, with photos ones own experiences and learning from that.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Dec 11, 2019 12:26:21 GMT -5
Great explanation jamesp. I received some never used,larger ceramics in the purchase. Those were much softer than the smaller ones. Not all ceramic tumbling media is the same hardness. The unused ones are about a 5 mohs. I feel it is all about checking hardness of ceramics, even new purchases. Listening to those with more experience than you. Documenting, with photos ones own experiences and learning from that. Yes, like Zirconium is Mohs 8. Not sure about tin oxide. The most common is aluminum oxide so based tests on it. I was not aware of a Mohs 5 ceramic though. Do you know what it is made of ? It may be a porcelain media. Their is a lot of information about applications involving ceramic media types on metals and even plastics. Using them on rocks(and glass) is a different issue. Not much information from the manufacturers about that application. The only knowledge I could glean was from the tests on glass and obsidian.
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Post by fernwood on Dec 11, 2019 13:02:15 GMT -5
I have no clue on composition. Just know my scratch tests resulted in a 5. Also how much they have worn down with use confirmed they were soft.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Dec 11, 2019 15:42:45 GMT -5
I have no clue on composition. Just know my scratch tests resulted in a 5. Also how much they have worn down with use confirmed they were soft. "Listening to those with more experience than you." Dang. My mother said I was the smartest boy in the world but never said the most experienced. lol. I am comfortable with my media findings though. I thought it was quite a revelation.
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