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Post by HankRocks on Apr 9, 2020 5:46:44 GMT -5
Embarrassing, my scale reads different depending on what surface it is sitting on. Cancel all weights... No way a batch can gain weight and highly unlikely 9% weight loss happened in 48 hours HankRocks Benathema . 74 rpm with the big rock did destroy 500 grams(50 cents worth at raw prices) of raw SiC down to 2-3 tablespoons again in 48 hours on the 2nd run. Next test is to see how long it will take for 500 grams of raw SiC to break down at a conservative 34 rpm. Theories from 2016. Must weigh to prove this but the large 1 to 2 inch smalls are getting spanked faster than any other coarse method ever used by a long shot. Using larger 1 to 2 inch hard agate smalls and avoiding quartz pea gravel sized smalls increases aggressive grind and eats away at the big rock much quicker and wastes no barrel space on pea gravel. Due to raw SiC causing (wanted) deeper surface pitting(faster material removal) running with larger smalls an SiC 60 run was done on the last coarse recharge to prep for SiC 500 in vibe. I was wondering about the 9% and almost mentioned scale issues. I use two different scales(not digital) and have to make 2 or 3 measurements with each before the weight matches. My suspicion for your electronic scale is that the measurement platform is not properly seated(?) and that re-positioning the rock changes it's reading, something like tilting it to one side or the other. Even on the electronic scales, there has to be a mechanical component to the measurement that can get affected if not properly designed or built. Or maybe the scale is not rated for weights over a certain limit. My last recharge for a coarse run is usually less grit using 60/90 instead of 46/70 and it goes one day longer, 4 days instead of the 3 day re-charge rate. I figure that anyone getting off at the washout stop needs to be better prepared(smoother) for the 600SiC stage. For my 600 SiC run for the big Quartz I am going to use all smalls as filler. Nothing more than 1/2 inch, most pea gravel size. At this point I don't want bruising contact, just more fine smoothing. I have a test run right now of the" all smalls except" that comes out of polish in 3 or 4 days for another large to see how it does, large piece of Snowflake Obsidian. Should be interesting. |
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Apr 9, 2020 6:02:49 GMT -5
"My last recharge for a coarse run is usually less grit using 60/90 instead of 46/70 and it goes one day longer, 4 days instead of the 3 day re-charge rate. I figure that anyone getting off at the washout stop needs to be better prepared(smoother) for the 600SiC stage." This is a mandatory step in my case too Henry if skipping SiC 220 and moving on to SiC 500. The SiC 60 cleans up the raw SiC damage nicely if run long enough for transition to SiC 500. No fun to find out you did not get all the pits out way back in the early steps when polish time arrives ! It was easier to bring the scale to the tumbles than to bring the tumbles to the scale. I'll figure that one out later. No patience with trash equipment. Good move, after the coarse run it is all about babying the big rock with your choice of padding. Pea gravel is as safe as it gets, good move IMO. In my case I will put UGLY in the right side vibe compartment for SiC 500-AO 200-AO polish with 100% quartz pea gravel. The large smalls will go in the left side vibe compartment but will take 2 runs due to their volume PLUS the 40% quartz pea gravel. You guys that roll a big rock all the way to polish need to be congratulated. If you get a chance will you post the 4 pound Rio you did and any supporting info about that run ? I did a snowflake, maybe 2.5 pounds. Ran it several times in the vibe at that and could not get better than matte. If you are successful with the snowflake you will have me bowing. Will take photo of my failure. This is Sumatra Flame agate I got from roy. This rock defied all tumbling and grinding methods. Fine big rock candidate if you can shape it. By far the hardest or toughest or both rock I have ever dealt with in my career. I could only saw it, or wear out grinding wheels on it. I will try the tuck blades on it.  |
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Post by HankRocks on Apr 9, 2020 8:53:08 GMT -5
jamesp Here is my original post on the 4 pound Rio. Did not track the weight through the process. If memory serves correctly, it started about 4.4 or 4.3 pounds and came in at just barely under 4. It was Rotary all the way as I did not think the UV-18 would give enough motion for polishing. I am running the large Obsidian in the Rotary for polish. It's actually a preform for a Sphere that I bought from someone who never got to run it in his Sphere Machine. forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/82829/4-pound-jasper-agate-tumble
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Apr 10, 2020 3:24:31 GMT -5
I quoted from your 4 pound Rio thread, thanks for the link:
"This one spent 3-10 day cycles in coarse - 46/70 , 10 days in 120 Aluminum Oxide, 8 days in Polish. All stages were in the Rotary, Thumler's Model B. Did not think it would get enough action in the UV-18. Fortunately it was a river-tumbled rock so it was already well rounded.
I have altered my coarse stage a bit, I was doing the last re-charge about 2 days before the 2nd stage. Adjusted to 4 days after last re-charge before moving to 2nd stage. Suspect that it gives the 2nd stage Aluminum Oxide less severe scratches to smooth out."
I thought you had bridged the coarse/polish gap with AO 120 on this beauty Henry. A 3 step.
The AO 120 really performed well with this 4 pounder for you in the rotary. I have only used those coarser AO's in the vibe(22-46-80-220).
This is a testimony to the effectiveness of using a coarser AO(120) in the rotary too for sure.
[The 'longer-last-SiC 46 run' can make a big difference on the whole future of the tumble in my experience too.
The longer last coarse step is easy, just sit back and let the tumbler do the work.]
It has always been a mystery to me why AO 80, 120, 220 has rarely been used to bridge the coarse/polish step in the rock tumbling world.
Both in the vibe and looking at your results apparently in the rotary too.
ETA :
Did you just use 1 charge of AO 120 ? I noticed you ran AO 120 for 10 days.
It takes my vibe about 3 to 5 days to bridge the gap using AO 80, 2 to 3 days with AO 220, so I assumed you did one 10 day cycle with no re-charges of the AO 120 in the rotary.
Could it be that the 4 pound rock assisted the AO 120 to 'break down' in the rotary ?
I remember trying to bridge the gap running average sized tumbles in the rotary with no success.
Seemed like the AO 80 was not breaking down(or smoothing off) when rolling smaller 1 to 2 inch tumbles.
ETA #2:
Above post simplified lol.
The AO 80 and 220 in a vibe has been a powerful part of my tumbling arsenal for years now in bridging the gap for a 3 step.
It is a bit of a miracle abrasive.
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Post by HankRocks on Apr 10, 2020 7:51:38 GMT -5
jamesp The only re-charges I do is for Coarse run. All my AO runs are charged at the start and then let it run. I have switched from 120 AO to 80 AO or 500 AO depending on the load. Normal Agate/Jasper/Petrified Wood with or without a big go 80 AO. The bigger, harder material breaks that 80 AO down pretty quickly. A load of Pendant Preforms and slabs with cushioning goes 500 AO. Same for a load of Ark Quartz that has a good bit of smalls. A lot gentler impacts with these would not breakdown the 80 AO very fast. I have added the 600 SiC back into my process. I think it lets the AO start with a much smoother surface, and it does do a bit of shaping. Also using saved AO slurry in any AO runs. It's probably un-necessary however I keep the AO slurries segregated and use accordingly. That AO slurry is really fine stuff, must be very similar to the Clay you use.
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Post by jamesp on Apr 10, 2020 8:51:13 GMT -5
jamesp The only re-charges I do is for Coarse run. All my AO runs are charged at the start and then let it run. I have switched from 120 AO to 80 AO or 500 AO depending on the load. Normal Agate/Jasper/Petrified Wood with or without a big go 80 AO. The bigger, harder material breaks that 80 AO down pretty quickly. A load of Pendant Preforms and slabs with cushioning goes 500 AO. Same for a load of Ark Quartz that has a good bit of smalls. A lot gentler impacts with these would not breakdown the 80 AO very fast. I have added the 600 SiC back into my process. I think it lets the AO start with a much smoother surface, and it does do a bit of shaping. Also using saved AO slurry in any AO runs. It's probably un-necessary however I keep the AO slurries segregated and use accordingly. That AO slurry is really fine stuff, must be very similar to the Clay you use. You are having similar experience as I. I figured you let the AO 120 run on the 10 day coarse. The choice of AO be it 80,220 or 500 is often a judgement call based on the last SiC run be it 10,30 or 46 and how long it ran in the last recharge. If 46 and ran for a long week or 10 days in last recharge I use AO 220 or even AO 500. If it was SiC 10 and it only ran say 4 days in last recharge I use AO 80. Or I always use AO 220 or AO 500 if I do the SiC 500 step. That fine SiC step is a deal closer. The SiC 500 step takes 2 days in the vibe, not bad. This makes AO 80-120-220-500 totally versatile. Glad you share opinions on this subject. By the way, when I polished those big rocks in the vibe with AO 22 I carefully cleaned the batch and saved any AO 22 left over. To my surprise most of the AO 22 particles were still in the bottom of the hopper after wash down but were smaller rounded particles instead of sharp jagged particles. You may find tiny AO 80 particles in your rotary if you do a careful separation washing in a tub because I find smoothed AO 80 when I use AO 80 in the Lot-O with glass. Raw Georgia kaolin clay averages 30% aluminum oxide so yes your AO slurry is likely very similar to my clay. |
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Post by HankRocks on Apr 10, 2020 10:23:33 GMT -5
jamesp The only re-charges I do is for Coarse run. All my AO runs are charged at the start and then let it run. I have switched from 120 AO to 80 AO or 500 AO depending on the load. Normal Agate/Jasper/Petrified Wood with or without a big go 80 AO. The bigger, harder material breaks that 80 AO down pretty quickly. A load of Pendant Preforms and slabs with cushioning goes 500 AO. Same for a load of Ark Quartz that has a good bit of smalls. A lot gentler impacts with these would not breakdown the 80 AO very fast. I have added the 600 SiC back into my process. I think it lets the AO start with a much smoother surface, and it does do a bit of shaping. Also using saved AO slurry in any AO runs. It's probably un-necessary however I keep the AO slurries segregated and use accordingly. That AO slurry is really fine stuff, must be very similar to the Clay you use. You are having similar experience as I. I figured you let the AO 120 run on the 10 day coarse. The choice of AO be it 80,220 or 500 is often a judgement call based on the last SiC run be it 10,30 or 46 and how long it ran in the last recharge. If 46 and ran for a long week or 10 days in last recharge I use AO 220 or even AO 500. If it was SiC 10 and it only ran say 4 days in last recharge I use AO 80. Or I always use AO 220 or AO 500 if I do the SiC 500 step. That fine SiC step is a deal closer. The SiC 500 step takes 2 days in the vibe, not bad. This makes AO 80-120-220-500 totally versatile. Glad you share opinions on this subject. By the way, when I polished those big rocks in the vibe with AO 22 I carefully cleaned the batch and saved any AO 22 left over. To my surprise most of the AO 22 particles were still in the bottom of the hopper after wash down but were smaller rounded particles instead of sharp jagged particles. You may find tiny AO 80 particles in your rotary if you do a careful separation washing in a tub because I find smoothed AO 80 when I use AO 80 in the Lot-O with glass. Raw Georgia kaolin clay averages 30% aluminum oxide so yes your AO slurry is likely very similar to my clay. Suspect that the 80 AO get's reduced to much finer in my runs, 8 to 9 days with no re-charge in the Rotary with well smoothed Agate/Jasper and a Big now and then. IMO that 80 grit is just going to get broken down pretty well. It's interesting that I haven't tried AO in the Vib Lap yet except for Polish. For me it,s 1st step - 80 SiC, 2nd step - 220 SiC, 3rd step 600 SiC, then Polish. For the Lap it's all about weight of the Rock and letting each stage run a bit so that the grit breaks down. 80 ends up being 200 or finer, the 220 ends up being 400-500 and the 600 ends up going to 800 - 1000. I suppose since my process produces a good polish have no reason to tinker with the formula. Also the Vib Lap is less tolerant to Grit infiltration, where a Rotary tumbler is not as picky. You could throw a few 80 grits into a 600 run and they along with any scratches they made will disappear rather quickly. Not so in the Vib Lap. I have picked up scratches in the Polish stage on the flat surfaces, grrrrr!!! and those have to go back to 220 or 600 to fix. Bottom line, Rotary tumblers are much more forgiving, assuming you give them enough time. |
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Post by jamesp on Apr 11, 2020 5:55:21 GMT -5
AO in a lap has been on my mind for a day now HankRocks. It's got to work well in it. AO can be sprinkled on a wet rag as a great piece of wet sand paper.. |
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Post by HankRocks on Apr 11, 2020 6:38:09 GMT -5
AO in a lap has been on my mind for a day now HankRocks . It's got to work well in it. AO can be sprinkled on a wet rag as a great piece of wet sand paper.. Well I probably will wait a while before trying any "AO in Vib Lap" experiments. Have 3 different tests running at the moment, two with Indian Paint Stone or more correctly what I suspect is Indian Paint Stone, and the shaped Snowflake Obsidian. The Obsidian run is at 7 days today, think I will let it go for 9 or 10 before cleanout. Oh and I forgot about the Big Quartz that's still running. Need to go update that Thread. And get the Okra planted this weekend, Community Garden meeting this morning to allocate garden space, need Propane, Wife has a drilling project for me, etc, etc.... I have no comprehension of being bored during retirement!!! Happy Easter |
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Post by jamesp on Apr 12, 2020 3:33:39 GMT -5
Happy Easter to you and yours Henry. Life has a way of swallowing us whole. Retirement is another word for unlimited tasks ahead lol.
Looks like experimentation is one of your motifs. Better than giving all to the company !
My Saturday was babysitting 8 concrete workers pouring 40 yards, never mind. Up at 2am with a sore body !
Since vibes and rotary tumblers differ from abrasive wheel grinding due to the use of loose abrasives.
In that the abrasive particles are free to roll between 2 surfaces instead of being glued into a wheel and creating linear scratches.
Ever notice how a tumble in process has tiny pits instead of linear scratches ? A cab being shaped on a wheel has linear scratches...
It would seem that a Vib Lap would operate in same way as a vibe or a rotary for that matter if you are using loose abrasives.
SiC shatters into super sharp cutting fragments, AO rounds to a smoother ball like particle until it may wear to nothing.
Bigger AO will shave off a good bit of material before rounding off to a roundish particle and begin imparting a polish.
You'd think AO would work fine in a Vib Lab IF your slabs are sawn flat and free of saw marks. May even have revolutionary effect.
Would you try AO 80 first ? I have some AO 46 and plenty of AO 22 if you need some for tests.
Would you add weight to the top of the slab to increase grind/polish pressure ? It would be nice if using coarse AO...
I will say that when I polished those big rocks with AO 22(in vibe) they intentionally had a seriously rough surface from a short SiC 30 run in the rotary.
The AO 22 ate the freshly pitted SiC 30 surface away in no time. That experiment had two extreme tasks, use AO 22 to - 1 to remove deep SiC 30 pits and 2 impart a polish.
AO 22 did both ! That really opened my eyes to the capability and versatility of using a coarse AO.
Reminding you that I have yet to see AO 22-46-80 sold in lapidary supply stores....doubt if anyone has ever used it in a Vib Lap.
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Maybe you can post some pictures here