djsparkles
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since June 2010
Posts: 79
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Post by djsparkles on Jun 25, 2020 15:29:01 GMT -5
For those who use it, I have some questions: Do you use it in all your stages? If so, why? Do you only use it for cleaning? If so, why? Sorry to be such a needy individual LOL but my curiosity knows no bounds and I want to learn all I can.  |
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oldschoolrocker
fully equipped rock polisher
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Post by oldschoolrocker on Jun 25, 2020 16:44:34 GMT -5
I use it in lot o vibr tumbler after the 120/220 stage. it works as a grit carrier I believe. to help the 1/2 teaspoon of grit cover the entire load of rocks. also use it with some ivory soap flakes to burnish after polish. which I rarely do
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EricD
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High in the Mountains
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Post by EricD on Jun 25, 2020 18:31:08 GMT -5
For those who use it, I have some questions: Do you use it in all your stages? If so, why? Do you only use it for cleaning? If so, why? Sorry to be such a needy individual LOL but my curiosity knows no bounds and I want to learn all I can. I'm not in the group that uses it, and I will tell you why!
The only thing I ever noticed using it, back when I did, was that the stones had extra bruising and chips missing. I attribute this to reduced friction from the soap, and increased impact.
I love your curiosity, it's what improves processes for people that tumble.
Sugar serves my purpose for ease of cleaning the rocks (just rinses off the grit, even out of pits), and also, if thick enough, provides ample slurry consistency and progression. This applies to rotary and vibe applications.
"Burnishing" won't do anything that 14k AO won't do once it's broken down to about 100k in 3 days in a vibe. That is a fact some won't agree with however, so they use borax instead.
I do admit some that use borax don't see, or admit to seeing, more imperfections than before they used it, and some perhaps do it for less time. There are many variables
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pizzano
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Member since February 2018
Posts: 1,390
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Post by pizzano on Jun 25, 2020 19:34:39 GMT -5
I use it solely and specifically as a cleaning agent.........for both the stones and the vibe bowls. I never have used any soap or sugar as a thickening media. There are better products out there that are made of clay, for the purpose of getting a slurry developed and keeping it consistent throughout the rough grinding stages. I have found Borax helps breakdown slurry and any softer embedded material that tends to cling to the stones. Especially if used to soak the stones before and after all stages...........and yes, "seeing, more imperfections than before they used it", quite often occurs, another good reason for using it. The more detail exposed prior to polishing saves many hours of disappointment and do over's......IMO.
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EricD
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High in the Mountains
Member since November 2019
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Post by EricD on Jun 25, 2020 19:51:04 GMT -5
I use it solely and specifically as a cleaning agent.........for both the stones and the vibe bowls. I never have used any soap or sugar as a thickening media. There are better products out there that are made of clay, for the purpose of getting a slurry developed and keeping it consistent throughout the rough grinding stages. I have found Borax helps breakdown slurry and any softer embedded material that tends to cling to the stones. Especially if used to soak the stones before and after all stages...........and yes, "seeing, more imperfections than before they used it", quite often occurs, another good reason for using it. The more detail exposed prior to polishing saves many hours of disappointment and do over's......IMO. So what I gather from that is that sugar serves the same purpose for me as both clay and borax do for you. Cleaning and getting a slurry developed. The seeing more imperfections quote was myself referring to borax causing it |
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pizzano
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Member since February 2018
Posts: 1,390
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Post by pizzano on Jun 25, 2020 20:06:55 GMT -5
I use it solely and specifically as a cleaning agent.........for both the stones and the vibe bowls. I never have used any soap or sugar as a thickening media. There are better products out there that are made of clay, for the purpose of getting a slurry developed and keeping it consistent throughout the rough grinding stages. I have found Borax helps breakdown slurry and any softer embedded material that tends to cling to the stones. Especially if used to soak the stones before and after all stages...........and yes, "seeing, more imperfections than before they used it", quite often occurs, another good reason for using it. The more detail exposed prior to polishing saves many hours of disappointment and do over's......IMO. So what I gather from that is that sugar serves the same purpose for me as both clay and borax do for you. Cleaning and getting a slurry developed. The seeing more imperfections quote was myself referring to borax causing it Kinda......If you're implying that you are able to "kill two birds with one stone"......well good that.....I cannot concede that sugar (in anybody's book), would/could be considered a decent cleaning agent for rock tumbling. However, as a slurry thickener, it works. I've tried it, but it breaks down entirely to fast for my "taste" and recharge's are required........not with clay products used with stones (glass or obsidian for another discussion)........! |
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Post by knave on Jun 25, 2020 20:18:43 GMT -5
With borax, I notice white sediment in any inclusions. Not sure if it’s polish or borax. With sugar, being very water soluble, the stones appear cleaner. Both do good with polishing.
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EricD
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Post by EricD on Jun 25, 2020 20:22:48 GMT -5
I think jamesp and many others that use sugar would disagree that sugar is not a cleaning agent, or a cleaning assistant, and able to suspend grit quite well while still allowing it to do it's job. Sugar "breaking down"? Sugar instantly breaks down into syrup when added to water. |
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pizzano
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Borax
Jun 25, 2020 21:36:29 GMT -5
Post by pizzano on Jun 25, 2020 21:36:29 GMT -5
I think jamesp and many others that use sugar would disagree that sugar is not a cleaning agent, or a cleaning assistant, and able to suspend grit quite well while still allowing it to do it's job. Sugar "breaking down"? Sugar instantly breaks down into syrup when added to water. I realize you're convinced and quite happy with your sugar results........good that.
Without getting into a pissing contest or throwing names around in support of your application (you've been pushing sugar for as often as I can remember), a little more research and reading between the lines about what other elements are included in that process, and a lot more transparency (on your part) as it relates to the entire process, would be helpful........it's not just a simple matter of just adding sugar for cleaning or thickener.........Sugar alone is not a do-all, solve-all application, as you just referenced as an assistant.......!....and I'll reiterate, I'm talking Stones, Rocks.......not glass.
Sugar looses it's abrasive qualities rapidly......as you've witnessed, and becomes a syrup.........syrup has no cleaning value outside of what it allows to circulate within as a liquid........not all abrasives that have developed or have been incorporated as part of the grinding process, will consistently adhere to the stones via sugar slurry. That is why it's so easy to rinse off..........even as a thickener, the viscosity value of sugar breaks down and looses traction much faster than clays. Thus, the reason for frequent recharges.........jamesp has shown many examples of this through his extensive (and I might say) transparent studies. One of the reasons he tends to use sugar more exclusively for glass, since glass breaks down much more rapidly than stone......!
I'll not belabor this subject further.......those with a sweet tooth for sugar, have at it and enjoy.......Personally, I do not have the time or patience to use remedies (especially on precious stones of 6-7mohs), that do not have an extensive history or successful track record. Particularly, after I have given them a reasonable amount of time to prove themselves with the proper elements and applications contributed......!
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EricD
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Post by EricD on Jun 25, 2020 21:52:50 GMT -5
I think jamesp and many others that use sugar would disagree that sugar is not a cleaning agent, or a cleaning assistant, and able to suspend grit quite well while still allowing it to do it's job. Sugar "breaking down"? Sugar instantly breaks down into syrup when added to water. I realize you're convinced and quite happy with your sugar results........good that.
Without getting into a pissing contest or throwing names around in support of your application (you've been pushing sugar for as often as I can remember), a little more research and reading between the lines about what other elements are included in that process, and a lot more transparency (on your part) as it relates to the entire process, would be helpful........it's not just a simple matter of just adding sugar for cleaning or thickener.........Sugar alone is not a do-all, solve-all application, as you just referenced as an assistant.......!....and I'll reiterate, I'm talking Stones, Rocks.......not glass.
Sugar looses it's abrasive qualities rapidly......as you've witnessed, and becomes a syrup.........syrup has no cleaning value outside of what it allows to circulate within as a liquid........not all abrasives that have developed or have been incorporated as part of the grinding process, will consistently adhere to the stones via sugar slurry. That is why it's so easy to rinse off..........even as a thickener, the viscosity value of sugar breaks down and looses traction much faster than clays. Thus, the reason for frequent recharges.........jamesp has shown many examples of this through his extensive (and I might say) transparent studies. One of the reasons he tends to use sugar more exclusively for glass, since glass breaks down much more rapidly than stone......!
I'll not belabor this subject further.......those with a sweet tooth for sugar, have at it and enjoy.......Personally, I do not have the time or patience to use remedies (especially on precious stones of 6-7mohs), that do not have an extensive history or successful track record. Particularly, after I have given them a reasonable amount of time to prove themselves with the proper elements and applications contributed......!
I'll just leave this entire post alone because I would like to remain your friend. |
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Post by fernwood on Jun 26, 2020 5:39:19 GMT -5
I use Borax between all stages in rotary for cleaning the rocks. medium and barrel. It seems to help get the stubborn grit out of any imperfections.
Also run a final cleaning stage after polish.
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djsparkles
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since June 2010
Posts: 79
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Post by djsparkles on Jun 26, 2020 6:39:33 GMT -5
Wow! Y'all are amazing thank you! Sooooooo much information posted here I am so glad to have found this place. This board is without a doubt the friendliest, kindest, and most helpful place I've been. Thank you all! |
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Post by arghvark on Jun 26, 2020 9:15:10 GMT -5
I'm a relative neophyte, only been tumbling for about 3 years.
I do 100% rough in rotaries, and everything else in a Lot-o. As a result, I have zero need for cleaning in the rotaries.
I used borax in the Lot-o for a couple years as that is what was recommended. It's fantastic if your stones are absolutely perfect; no pits or crevices. But incredibly annoying to clean out of any pits, vugs, etc. A lot of what I tumble is locally collected agates and jaspers which are pretty hard, extremely rough, not always perfect when moved on to the Lot-o. Another two to six weeks in rough to get rid of two or three pits at the risk of exposing others just ain't always what I want to do. This is why I tried sugar, after reading about it in this forum.
Under these conditions, at my experience level, sugar is pretty bleepin' awesome as it completely eliminates the never ending need to clean white stuff out of defects. It cushions entirely sufficiently, even when the Lot-o gets neglected and runs longer than necessary. It is MUCH less sensitive to additive-water ratio. (This is important as the air in my garage is extremely hot and dry in the summer.)
I also recently had a load of wonderstone (pretty soft and porous, and challenging to get nice shine) which ended up with a much better final finish than anything I accomplished with borax, although this could also have been a result of longer-than-usual polish cycle.
So overall I'm pretty stoked on sugar, although I'll certainly retry some borax with perfect stones in the winter.
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Post by knave on Jun 26, 2020 9:46:05 GMT -5
I'm a relative neophyte, only been tumbling for about 3 years. I do 100% rough in rotaries, and everything else in a Lot-o. As a result, I have zero need for cleaning in the rotaries. I used borax in the Lot-o for a couple years as that is what was recommended. It's fantastic if your stones are absolutely perfect; no pits or crevices. But incredibly annoying to clean out of any pits, vugs, etc. A lot of what I tumble is locally collected agates and jaspers which are pretty hard, extremely rough, not always perfect when moved on to the Lot-o. Another two to six weeks in rough to get rid of two or three pits at the risk of exposing others just ain't always what I want to do. This is why I tried sugar, after reading about it in this forum. Under these conditions, at my experience level, sugar is pretty bleepin' awesome as it completely eliminates the never ending need to clean white stuff out of defects. It cushions entirely sufficiently, even when the Lot-o gets neglected and runs longer than necessary. It is MUCH less sensitive to additive-water ratio. (This is important as the air in my garage is extremely hot and dry in the summer.) I also recently had a load of wonderstone (pretty soft and porous, and challenging to get nice shine) which ended up with a much better final finish than anything I accomplished with borax, although this could also have been a result of longer-than-usual polish cycle. So overall I'm pretty stoked on sugar, although I'll certainly retry some borax with perfect stones in the winter. Well said, and ditto! |
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jun 26, 2020 11:37:34 GMT -5
"Under these conditions, at my experience level, sugar is pretty bleepin' awesome as it completely eliminates the never ending need to clean white stuff out of defects. It cushions entirely sufficiently, even when the Lot-o gets neglected and runs longer than necessary" arghvark's points above are my reasons for using sugar. Drying a load in the vibe when using Borax is not so forgiving since Borax does not dissolve out of crevices as well as sugar when re-hydrated. And sugar stays hydrated longer in my experience. The job of a slurry is peculiar. By definition it about has to be a liquid with particles in suspension. It is well known that colloidal clay is a great slurry for most abrasive processes. Who would have ever known that Borax, sugar or clay would make good tumbling slurries. Trail and error might be the only way to have known. I looked it up: Slurry - definition of slurry by The Free Dictionary www.thefreedictionary.com/slurry1. slurry - a suspension of insoluble particles (as plaster of Paris or lime or clay etc.) usually in water. suspension - a mixture in which fine particles are suspended in a fluid where they are supported by buoyancy So sugar may not be a slurry since it is 100% dissolvable up to a point anyway. No idea if Borax is completely dissolved or if it is micro particles in suspension. Clay is a true non-dissolvable suspended(often felspar) particle. So it is a slurry. |
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oldschoolrocker
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,578
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Post by oldschoolrocker on Jun 26, 2020 12:32:47 GMT -5
I'm a relative neophyte, only been tumbling for about 3 years. I do 100% rough in rotaries, and everything else in a Lot-o. As a result, I have zero need for cleaning in the rotaries. I used borax in the Lot-o for a couple years as that is what was recommended. It's fantastic if your stones are absolutely perfect; no pits or crevices. But incredibly annoying to clean out of any pits, vugs, etc. A lot of what I tumble is locally collected agates and jaspers which are pretty hard, extremely rough, not always perfect when moved on to the Lot-o. Another two to six weeks in rough to get rid of two or three pits at the risk of exposing others just ain't always what I want to do. This is why I tried sugar, after reading about it in this forum. Under these conditions, at my experience level, sugar is pretty bleepin' awesome as it completely eliminates the never ending need to clean white stuff out of defects. It cushions entirely sufficiently, even when the Lot-o gets neglected and runs longer than necessary. It is MUCH less sensitive to additive-water ratio. (This is important as the air in my garage is extremely hot and dry in the summer.) I also recently had a load of wonderstone (pretty soft and porous, and challenging to get nice shine) which ended up with a much better final finish than anything I accomplished with borax, although this could also have been a result of longer-than-usual polish cycle. So overall I'm pretty stoked on sugar, although I'll certainly retry some borax with perfect stones in the winter. so to clarify, I'm in the camp of using borax in the lot o as that's what I read and assumed was the consensus. I also normally tumble local collected river gravel and move many a stones on from coarse stage with minor imperfections. I always assumed any white left in flaws was polish and not borax. this was due to being able to clean out any residue from flaws pretty consistently until they came out of polish. so figured the grit size of polish starting at 14k micron before broken down would obviously result in much smaller grit size when run is completed. and that's what allowed the residue to get into the smallest of flaws and unable to be removed w normal cleaning like prior stages. I've also tumble polished around 150 cabochons I mad ewith dremel and never have any issues with residue, but also take great care to remove every single flaw prior to tumbling in lot o. Borax is super finicky w moisture levels in my experience. too little and all gets gummed up at bottom and cpl drops too much water and doesnt stick to rocks and media and gets gummed up in bottom. all that said I am very interested in trying sugar in the lot o. can anyone share their recipe for using sugar in lot o single ? |
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Post by knave on Jun 26, 2020 12:45:26 GMT -5
Drained but wet rocks, and 1/8 to 1/4 cup sugar
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oldschoolrocker
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,578
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Post by oldschoolrocker on Jun 26, 2020 12:56:19 GMT -5
Drained but wet rocks, and 1/8 to 1/4 cup sugar thanks |
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EricD
Cave Dweller
High in the Mountains
Member since November 2019
Posts: 1,142
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Post by EricD on Jun 26, 2020 12:58:25 GMT -5
I'm a relative neophyte, only been tumbling for about 3 years. I do 100% rough in rotaries, and everything else in a Lot-o. As a result, I have zero need for cleaning in the rotaries. I used borax in the Lot-o for a couple years as that is what was recommended. It's fantastic if your stones are absolutely perfect; no pits or crevices. But incredibly annoying to clean out of any pits, vugs, etc. A lot of what I tumble is locally collected agates and jaspers which are pretty hard, extremely rough, not always perfect when moved on to the Lot-o. Another two to six weeks in rough to get rid of two or three pits at the risk of exposing others just ain't always what I want to do. This is why I tried sugar, after reading about it in this forum. Under these conditions, at my experience level, sugar is pretty bleepin' awesome as it completely eliminates the never ending need to clean white stuff out of defects. It cushions entirely sufficiently, even when the Lot-o gets neglected and runs longer than necessary. It is MUCH less sensitive to additive-water ratio. (This is important as the air in my garage is extremely hot and dry in the summer.) I also recently had a load of wonderstone (pretty soft and porous, and challenging to get nice shine) which ended up with a much better final finish than anything I accomplished with borax, although this could also have been a result of longer-than-usual polish cycle. So overall I'm pretty stoked on sugar, although I'll certainly retry some borax with perfect stones in the winter. so to clarify, I'm in the camp of using borax in the lot o as that's what I read and assumed was the consensus. I also normally tumble local collected river gravel and move many a stones on from coarse stage with minor imperfections. I always assumed any white left in flaws was polish and not borax. this was due to being able to clean out any residue from flaws pretty consistently until they came out of polish. so figured the grit size of polish starting at 14k micron before broken down would obviously result in much smaller grit size when run is completed. and that's what allowed the residue to get into the smallest of flaws and unable to be removed w normal cleaning like prior stages. I've also tumble polished around 150 cabochons I mad ewith dremel and never have any issues with residue, but also take great care to remove every single flaw prior to tumbling in lot o. Borax is super finicky w moisture levels in my experience. too little and all gets gummed up at bottom and cpl drops too much water and doesnt stick to rocks and media and gets gummed up in bottom. all that said I am very interested in trying sugar in the lot o. can anyone share their recipe for using sugar in lot o single ? I add 3T sugar to a filled and then drained lot-o barrel along with 1/2t of polish. I weigh my barrels and keep it about 4.5-5lbs. I let it run for 3 days, but it's usually ready in 2 days.
My stone loads are usually 50-60% ceramic media mixed with small pebbles about the same size as the ceramic, and the rocks that need polishing.
My cab loads are about 8-11 cabs and the rest the same ceramic and pebbles. I don't use sugar when polishing such a small amount of cabs, but if the load was 40-50% cabs I would.
I like to run 1T sugar in 220 grit and 2T in AO-500 also, for ease of cleaning and as a slurry thickener
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oldschoolrocker
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,578
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Post by oldschoolrocker on Jun 26, 2020 13:18:16 GMT -5
so to clarify, I'm in the camp of using borax in the lot o as that's what I read and assumed was the consensus. I also normally tumble local collected river gravel and move many a stones on from coarse stage with minor imperfections. I always assumed any white left in flaws was polish and not borax. this was due to being able to clean out any residue from flaws pretty consistently until they came out of polish. so figured the grit size of polish starting at 14k micron before broken down would obviously result in much smaller grit size when run is completed. and that's what allowed the residue to get into the smallest of flaws and unable to be removed w normal cleaning like prior stages. I've also tumble polished around 150 cabochons I mad ewith dremel and never have any issues with residue, but also take great care to remove every single flaw prior to tumbling in lot o. Borax is super finicky w moisture levels in my experience. too little and all gets gummed up at bottom and cpl drops too much water and doesnt stick to rocks and media and gets gummed up in bottom. all that said I am very interested in trying sugar in the lot o. can anyone share their recipe for using sugar in lot o single ? I add 3T sugar to a filled and then drained lot-o barrel along with 1/2t of polish. I weigh my barrels and keep it about 4.5-5lbs. I let it run for 3 days, but it's usually ready in 2 days.
My stone loads are usually 50-60% ceramic media mixed with small pebbles about the same size as the ceramic, and the rocks that need polishing.
My cab loads are about 8-11 cabs and the rest the same ceramic and pebbles. I don't use sugar when polishing such a small amount of cabs, but if the load was 40-50% cabs I would.
I like to run 1T sugar in 220 grit and 2T in AO-500 also, for ease of cleaning and as a slurry thickener
thanks! |
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