jlcochran42
starting to shine!
Member since July 2020
Posts: 29
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Post by jlcochran42 on Oct 30, 2020 22:41:45 GMT -5
Just curious if any one has ever used distilled water for rock tumbling. Does this make a difference in appearance?
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Post by Mel on Oct 31, 2020 0:34:54 GMT -5
Nope. I use tap water when I make soap too, and never had any issues. If your water has super high iron I could mayyybe see it giving a bit of trouble but I wouldn't worry about distilled at all.
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Post by miket on Oct 31, 2020 7:14:28 GMT -5
Just curious if any one has ever used distilled water for rock tumbling. Does this make a difference in appearance? I asked the same question when I first started and was told no and not to overthink it.... That being said, you could always try it and see what you think. 😀
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Wooferhound
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Lortone QT66 and 3A
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Post by Wooferhound on Nov 1, 2020 0:01:38 GMT -5
Well you are going to grind rocks into a powder which is rather dirty anyway , so how could the water make any difference ?
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Post by jasoninsd on Nov 1, 2020 0:51:42 GMT -5
Well you are going to grind rocks into a powder which is rather dirty anyway , so how could the water make any difference ? I think it's a legitimate question. In my layman's way of thinking, I would wonder if a harder tap water which had a high mineral content would have a negative effect in maybe the polishing stages - not necessarily the "grinding" stages. In my mind, I'm equating those possible negative effects to finding "spots" on glasses when they're air dried after washing - or sometimes out of the dishwasher. If the tap water was high in mineral content, would it somehow have a negative chemical reaction with the Aluminum Oxide (or other polishing materials) and slightly alter the effects of the AO? Or, would those effects be so negligible, that I'd just be overthinking things? I'm going to harbor a guess that if the mineral content of tap water was high enough to alter the polishing stages, it wouldn't be "tap water" for very long! LOL
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,595
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Post by jamesp on Nov 1, 2020 5:07:27 GMT -5
I can say iron oxide will not stain tumble polished rocks since my vibe barrel is plain steel and is often real rusty. Iron oxide stains remain for a 1000 years on petroglyphs. However rocks suited for tumbling are not noted for absorbing chemicals. Surface stains may be another subject. def: "Hard water, water that contains salts of calcium and magnesium principally as bicarbonates, chlorides, and sulfates. Ferrous iron may also be present; oxidized to the ferric form, it appears as a reddish brown stain on washed fabrics and enameled surfaces." Dishwater detergent is designed to remove hard water stains on hard surfaces, perfect for tumbles. Try it sometime. ph might be a bigger concern. Even bottled water comes in a broad range of ph. Who would dare drink ph 4.5 water ? Or 9.5. Maybe there is a good reason. 4.5 seems like a serious case of the runs. It would be interesting to have chemist do an analysis on various rock slurries. Mercury lead arsenic antimony asbestos thallium tellurium copper don't just fly down from heaven.
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Post by manofglass on Nov 1, 2020 14:34:59 GMT -5
No but I use it for my coffee
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Post by stephan on Nov 1, 2020 19:27:34 GMT -5
I can say iron oxide will not stain tumble polished rocks since my vibe barrel is plain steel and is often real rusty. Iron oxide stains remain for a 1000 years on petroglyphs. However rocks suited for tumbling are not noted for absorbing chemicals. Surface stains may be another subject. def: "Hard water, water that contains salts of calcium and magnesium principally as bicarbonates, chlorides, and sulfates. Ferrous iron may also be present; oxidized to the ferric form, it appears as a reddish brown stain on washed fabrics and enameled surfaces." Dishwater detergent is designed to remove hard water stains on hard surfaces, perfect for tumbles. Try it sometime. ph might be a bigger concern. Even bottled water comes in a broad range of ph. Who would dare drink ph 4.5 water ? Or 9.5. Maybe there is a good reason. 4.5 seems like a serious case of the runs. It would be interesting to have chemist do an analysis on various rock slurries. Mercury lead arsenic antimony asbestos thallium tellurium copper don't just fly down from heaven. For pH, consider that most fruit is pretty acidic. Citrus is usually in the 2-3 range. Bottled water is poorly buffered, so the pH after you drink it will be near 2 (the pH of your stomach). As for heavy metals not raining down from heaven, I believe 1dave has a different take on that. And dishwasher detergent... that is pretty harsh stuff, and I’ve had it change the color of rocks (some Gary Green went all brown, but I suspect it doesn’t go very deep).
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Post by stephan on Nov 1, 2020 19:31:40 GMT -5
Well you are going to grind rocks into a powder which is rather dirty anyway , so how could the water make any difference ? I'm going to harbor a guess that if the mineral content of tap water was high enough to alter the polishing stages, it wouldn't be "tap water" for very long! LOL I guess you haven’t had the water in California’s Central water yet. It has quite a high mineral content. The final rinse with something like distilled water could certainly avoid spots. Actual damage, though... not gonna happen.
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Post by 1dave on Nov 1, 2020 23:42:44 GMT -5
I can say iron oxide will not stain tumble polished rocks since my vibe barrel is plain steel and is often real rusty. Iron oxide stains remain for a 1000 years on petroglyphs. However rocks suited for tumbling are not noted for absorbing chemicals. It would be interesting to have chemist do an analysis on various rock slurries. Mercury lead arsenic antimony asbestos thallium tellurium copper don't just fly down from heaven. For pH, consider that most fruit is pretty acidic. Citrus is usually in the 2-3 range. Bottled water is poorly buffered, so the pH after you drink it will be near 2 (the pH of your stomach). As for heavy metals not raining down from heaven, I believe 1dave has a different take on that. And dishwasher detergent... that is pretty harsh stuff, and I’ve had it change the color of rocks (some Gary Green went all brown, but I suspect it doesn’t go very deep). EVERY ATOM on Earth came down from the heavens. I just learned that all of our uranium came from a 6.6 billion year old supernova - but it didn't all get here at the same time.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,595
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Post by jamesp on Nov 3, 2020 10:27:22 GMT -5
I can say iron oxide will not stain tumble polished rocks since my vibe barrel is plain steel and is often real rusty. Iron oxide stains remain for a 1000 years on petroglyphs. However rocks suited for tumbling are not noted for absorbing chemicals. Surface stains may be another subject. def: "Hard water, water that contains salts of calcium and magnesium principally as bicarbonates, chlorides, and sulfates. Ferrous iron may also be present; oxidized to the ferric form, it appears as a reddish brown stain on washed fabrics and enameled surfaces." Dishwater detergent is designed to remove hard water stains on hard surfaces, perfect for tumbles. Try it sometime. ph might be a bigger concern. Even bottled water comes in a broad range of ph. Who would dare drink ph 4.5 water ? Or 9.5. Maybe there is a good reason. 4.5 seems like a serious case of the runs. It would be interesting to have chemist do an analysis on various rock slurries. Mercury lead arsenic antimony asbestos thallium tellurium copper don't just fly down from heaven. For pH, consider that most fruit is pretty acidic. Citrus is usually in the 2-3 range. Bottled water is poorly buffered, so the pH after you drink it will be near 2 (the pH of your stomach). As for heavy metals not raining down from heaven, I believe 1dave has a different take on that. And dishwasher detergent... that is pretty harsh stuff, and I’ve had it change the color of rocks (some Gary Green went all brown, but I suspect it doesn’t go very deep). I have had a camp I stay at 2 months out of the year. Home has well water at ph 6.2 and the camp at ph 8.2. The ph 8.2 is from the same location as Ponce de Leon's fountain of youth lol. Artesian flowing water. Coca Cola has been trying to get access to this micro pocket of ground water to market it as 'designer water' because of it's 15 minerals. I was amazed at the difference in my improved digestive health drinking high ph water.(loose to firm stools mainly sorry TMI). Granted there are a lot of variables. A large intake of acidic foods and liquids can have negative effects. Consider daily dose volume ratios, a 12 ounce glass full of low ph orange juice verses a 100+ ounces of drinking water at ph 6.2 or 8.2. Our water and soil is highly acidic here in the SE US. The larger volume of water we drink is what hydrates our entire body. It has a big impact on the entire body. And most of us drink on a daily basis is from the same source. This water source has a big impact on our being. ph is a big influence in our bodies and especially in soils as related to growing plants. Dilute it heavily stephan and you should have no problems. I use a half teaspoon of dishwasher soap in about a gallon of water for a rock wash, so heavily diluted. No surprise if the dilution could be increased. Wouldn't that make a difference ? A tiny bit of dishwasher soap goes a long way in removing problematic hard water spots after drying shiny tumbles. 1dave was lucky enough to be around during the formation of the earth. Neutral ph effects as related to nutrient availability for plants. Living organisms as a whole are heavily effected by ph. more legible ph 2 is same as battery acid/stomach acid, rough on the esophagus. OJ should be about 4.
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Post by stephan on Nov 3, 2020 12:51:33 GMT -5
For pH, consider that most fruit is pretty acidic. Citrus is usually in the 2-3 range. Bottled water is poorly buffered, so the pH after you drink it will be near 2 (the pH of your stomach). As for heavy metals not raining down from heaven, I believe 1dave has a different take on that. And dishwasher detergent... that is pretty harsh stuff, and I’ve had it change the color of rocks (some Gary Green went all brown, but I suspect it doesn’t go very deep). I have had a camp I stay at 2 months out of the year. Home has well water at ph 6.2 and the camp at ph 8.2. The ph 8.2 is from the same location as Ponce de Leon's fountain of youth lol. Artesian flowing water. Coca Cola has been trying to get access to this micro pocket of ground water to market it as 'designer water' because of it's 15 minerals. I was amazed at the difference in my improved digestive health drinking high ph water.(loose to firm stools mainly sorry TMI). Granted there are a lot of variables. A large intake of acidic foods and liquids can have negative effects. Consider daily dose volume ratios, a 12 ounce glass full of low ph orange juice verses a 100+ ounces of drinking water at ph 6.2 or 8.2. Our water and soil is highly acidic here in the SE US. The larger volume of water we drink is what hydrates our entire body. It has a big impact on the entire body. And most of us drink on a daily basis is from the same source. This water source has a big impact on our being. ph is a big influence in our bodies and especially in soils as related to growing plants. Dilute it heavily stephan and you should have no problems. I use a half teaspoon of dishwasher soap in about a gallon of water for a rock wash, so heavily diluted. No surprise if the dilution could be increased. Wouldn't that make a difference ? A tiny bit of dishwasher soap goes a long way in removing problematic hard water spots after drying shiny tumbles. 1dave was lucky enough to be around during the formation of the earth. Neutral ph effects as related to nutrient availability for plants. Living organisms as a whole are heavily effected by ph. more legible ph 2 is same as battery acid/stomach acid, rough on the esophagus. OJ should be about 4. While there is truth there, there is also more at play than just pH. pH only gives one piece of information: the negative exponent of the concentration of hydrogen ion (pH stands for "power of hydrogen"). Well, technically two. It also allows you to calculate the concentration of hydroxide ion. At pH7, both are present at 10 -7M, since the product of the two concentrations equals 10 -14. At pH2,, the concentration of hydrogen ion = 10 -2; the concentration of hydroxide = 10 -12. This means that you have far more hydrogen ion (acid) than hydroxide (base), thus a very acidic solution. What is far more important than just that concentration, is the presence of buffers, which act as a sponges for both acid and base (usually one more than the other), and thus make the solution resistant to change. Strong acids (like hydrochloric) release all of their hydrogen ion at once. If they are diluted 10-fold with water, the pH changes by 1 point; if 100-fold, by 2 points...). Strong bases, like sodium hydroxide act similarly on the basic side. Weak acids and bases are so-called because they do not release all of the hydrogen or hydroxide at once. They have an equilibrium that they "try" to maintain. This means they will start off at a pH that is nearer neutral (see sodas, lemons, vinegar, orange juice on the chart provided by james), but dilution will not affect them as much. If equal volumes of equal strength strong acid and strong base are mixed, they will neutralize each other (ph7). If there is 10 times as much acid, you will have pH6; if there is 10 times as much base, pH8. Mixing weak acid and strong base will somewhat favor the pH near that weak acid, as the acid will "try" to maintain its favored pH (unless the base is added in overwhelming amounts). Additionally many buffers have more than one acidic/basic group, and be even more resistant to change. This is how biological systems protect themselves from damage by acid/base. Bottled water, which is distilled, with certain minerals added for taste is not buffered, and thus would not be terribly effective at "alkalinizing " the body, unless consumed in enormous quantities. Well water, which is likely hard water (which is high in calcium carbonate, which is one of the things that often gives it an objectionable taste, along with other minerals which may or may not be good for you) would be more resistant to pH change. Dishwashing detergent does help remove the spots by a variety of methods. One is by changing the pH to one where bicarbonate [HCO 3-] is more prevalent than carbonate [CO 32-], which makes it less likely to bind to calcium ion [Ca 2+], and precipitate (crystalize).
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,595
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Post by jamesp on Nov 4, 2020 4:55:07 GMT -5
Maybe you can help me understand why soda lime glass tumbling slurry seems so heavily alkaline stephen. Let's just say the slurry is hard on skin like wet concrete and it smells similar to wet concrete. And when tumbling it and hardened concrete gases are created that raises the pressure in a sealed rotary tumbler barrel substantially. The slurry from tumbling concrete is much 'hotter' in terms of burning skin than soda lime glass, comparable to freshly mixed portland cement. Gas creation in rotary tumblers has been a problem for years. Glass and obsidian are notorious for creating gas that can blow the lid off the rotary tumbler, especially during step 1 when the material removal rate is high. Add concrete and metals to the list. And it would seem that many rocks mixed together would create substantial ph reactions causing gas pressure in a sealed chamber. Another reaction is muriatic acid on agates. Straight muriatic in the strength purchased from Home Depot will dissolve most limestone-like filled spots in agates. I am guessing that the acid is attacking calcium carbonate ?
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