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Post by Jugglerguy on Dec 7, 2020 21:27:29 GMT -5
Rob, this thread has reminded me of something I thought about quite a bit in 2018. It looked to me like, more or less, tumblers hadn't changed much in 50 yrs, and I got to thinking about what could be done to improve things--to take a quantum leap as the saying goes. So I found myself thinking about the movement of rocks in 3 dimensions and ways to enhance that resultant grinding. I have come up with a new barrel design, but making a prototype to test is going to tax my abilities. I even thought of a camshaft under the entire tumbler base to "rock" the tumbler back and forth like a teeter-totter along the shaft axes. Another idea is that the shaft pair would be out-of-synch cammed cones instead of cylinders, but this would involve hard gearing the shafts to each other, and the shaft cover would be a real challenge to make. I got to thinking how silicon is a substance that is in very common use today but may not have been 50 years ago and can it potentially play a part. Could a translucent window or strip along the barrel (like the view strip in an plastic car oil container) be doable? Could a "port" or other access point in the barrel be developed to add grit or add water? Could certain pockets or release mechanisms be inside the barrel to release the cup of grit each day over a week instead of all at once before we put the lid on? Could grit be electrically charged to enhance its adherence to the target material? Could a dummy rock be made to transmit certain data to a receiver that might be helpful (% water, conductivity, impact forces, or whatever)? Your long term proposal here has certainly reminded me about the grit loading issue. If you were going to add 1 cup of coarse grit to a new 12lb load, do you have any inkling which of the following would do the most work? A. Dump in a cup of grit on day 1 like we do now. B. Dump in 1/7th of that cup of grit in the morning for 7 days in a row. Granted this would be a whole lot of work and royal pain. My own theory on the answer to that question is that it is probably B. But I've never tested it. My step-father (now deceased) designed the cargo bay doors on the space shuttle and some pretty fancy things for the military and was a rubber and silicon expert. I'll bet if he was alive he could tell me how to design a "grit addition port" to perhaps shove a stainless steel straw-like device into to add some fresh grit and that would not leak water and hold up to the rough beating it would take. You have obviously put some time into thinking about this and I'm going to answer you immediately after reading your question. My initial thought is that it wouldn't make any significant difference and that A would be slightly better. My reasoning is that all the grit would be grinding for a week if it was all added at the start. Of course, by the end of the week, it would be doing much less grinding than at the beginning. If you add it a little at a time, there won't be as much grinding at the beginning and the last day's addition would only get to work for about 12 hours. The grit added in the last few days wouldn't even get to fully break down before the barrel was opened. Of course, I'm assuming that both barrels would be cleaned out at the end of the week. Here's an old thread that you might want to read. I haven't read this in a long time, and I don't have time to reread it again right now. I remember it being interesting at the time and related to your question. forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/68043/cleanout-recharge-experiment-final-results?page=1
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Post by Bob on Dec 7, 2020 22:54:13 GMT -5
Wow, what a thread. It gave me a headache to peruse. At one point I remember seeing an ounce-denominated measurement to the 1,000th decimal place! Will man up to reading it carefully, hopefully before Christmas. Thanks...I think.
Bahia agates are some of the toughest things I've ever tumbled. I felt so sorry for the poster when I read they were in the test.
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storm
off to a rocking start
Member since October 2020
Posts: 18
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Post by storm on Dec 8, 2020 0:13:54 GMT -5
...If you do decide to proceed: Rather than using a volumetric measurement (tablespoons)--maybe use weight as a measurement? It would be interesting to record all the weights of the materials used and then identify the final weights post-tumble. Subtracting the mass lost on the rocks and then adding it to the weight of the grit used should provide the stone:grit ratio of your final slurry. I like this idea! Closeup pics of each rock prior then after. Caliper measurements for size and also weights before/after. Would be a fun little tie-in for your other videos, a sign or quick shoutout "4 months in to the YEAR experiment" or a countdown to reveal! I expect a 01-Jan-2021 launch video, hahahah! All aboard(happy098)
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Post by parfive on Dec 8, 2020 3:12:12 GMT -5
I have room for eight 3 lb. barrels in my tumbler . . . Well, they’re probably close to a Thumler’s in size and guessing you run at 40 rpm, your rev counter’ll pass 21 million and you’ll roll about fifty-four hundred miles. Post the route on Google maps and we’ll keep a light on for ya. : )
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RWA3006
Cave Dweller
Member since March 2009
Posts: 4,190
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Post by RWA3006 on Dec 8, 2020 8:01:54 GMT -5
Seems like I remember captbob leaving barrels running untouched for 6 months or more but I do not remember if it was at stage one grit. Chuck Yes, captbob has done this and could probably share some insights. I don't see him posting around here much any more.
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Dec 8, 2020 10:03:11 GMT -5
Rob, this thread has reminded me of something I thought about quite a bit in 2018. It looked to me like, more or less, tumblers hadn't changed much in 50 yrs, and I got to thinking about what could be done to improve things--to take a quantum leap as the saying goes. So I found myself thinking about the movement of rocks in 3 dimensions and ways to enhance that resultant grinding. I have come up with a new barrel design, but making a prototype to test is going to tax my abilities. I even thought of a camshaft under the entire tumbler base to "rock" the tumbler back and forth like a teeter-totter along the shaft axes. Another idea is that the shaft pair would be out-of-synch cammed cones instead of cylinders, but this would involve hard gearing the shafts to each other, and the shaft cover would be a real challenge to make. I got to thinking how silicon is a substance that is in very common use today but may not have been 50 years ago and can it potentially play a part. Could a translucent window or strip along the barrel (like the view strip in an plastic car oil container) be doable? Could a "port" or other access point in the barrel be developed to add grit or add water? Could certain pockets or release mechanisms be inside the barrel to release the cup of grit each day over a week instead of all at once before we put the lid on? Could grit be electrically charged to enhance its adherence to the target material? Could a dummy rock be made to transmit certain data to a receiver that might be helpful (% water, conductivity, impact forces, or whatever)? Your long term proposal here has certainly reminded me about the grit loading issue. If you were going to add 1 cup of coarse grit to a new 12lb load, do you have any inkling which of the following would do the most work? A. Dump in a cup of grit on day 1 like we do now. B. Dump in 1/7th of that cup of grit in the morning for 7 days in a row. Granted this would be a whole lot of work and royal pain. My own theory on the answer to that question is that it is probably B. But I've never tested it. My step-father (now deceased) designed the cargo bay doors on the space shuttle and some pretty fancy things for the military and was a rubber and silicon expert. I'll bet if he was alive he could tell me how to design a "grit addition port" to perhaps shove a stainless steel straw-like device into to add some fresh grit and that would not leak water and hold up to the rough beating it would take. There are tumblers that claim to create a more efficient grind. I have owned this style and did not notice a big difference so sold it. There is another model that I can't remember the name of that took this design one step further by adding more angular surfaces. jamesp will probably remember which one I am talking about. As for adding 46/70 daily I disagree with that as well. Letting 46/70 run for 7 days allows it to break down to a lesser grit number so day 1-3 may be grinding while day 4-7 is smoothing those large 46 grit scratches. If you add new 46-70 on the last day of the tumble then you will have scratches too deep for the 220 stage to remove. Just my 2 cents Chuck
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Post by Bob on Dec 8, 2020 11:56:29 GMT -5
I can no longer remember why I thought adding some grit each day would be better than doing it all up front if one wanted to bother with the trouble. The arguments against it are very convincing to me. If I can find some very uniform rough, I might just do this test. Whether scratches too deep for 220 are there at the end of the week matter not, it was just a test to see which grinds the most rock off in a week.
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Post by Jugglerguy on Dec 8, 2020 12:06:48 GMT -5
I have room for eight 3 lb. barrels in my tumbler . . . Well, they’re probably close to a Thumler’s in size and guessing you run at 40 rpm, your rev counter’ll pass 21 million and you’ll roll about fifty-four hundred miles. Post the route on Google maps and we’ll keep a light on for ya. : ) Those are awesome numbers for my video! I'll have to measure my rpms and figure out the actual numbers. Thanks for a great idea!
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Post by Jugglerguy on Dec 8, 2020 12:12:58 GMT -5
...If you do decide to proceed: Rather than using a volumetric measurement (tablespoons)--maybe use weight as a measurement? It would be interesting to record all the weights of the materials used and then identify the final weights post-tumble. Subtracting the mass lost on the rocks and then adding it to the weight of the grit used should provide the stone:grit ratio of your final slurry. I like this idea! Closeup pics of each rock prior then after. Caliper measurements for size and also weights before/after. Would be a fun little tie-in for your other videos, a sign or quick shoutout "4 months in to the YEAR experiment" or a countdown to reveal! I expect a 01-Jan-2021 launch video, hahahah! All aboard(happy098) I was just going to post the video in a year, but maybe an intro video and some reminder posts along the way would build anticipation. Lots of good ideas here. Thanks!
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Post by aDave on Dec 8, 2020 15:03:43 GMT -5
I like this idea! Closeup pics of each rock prior then after. Caliper measurements for size and also weights before/after. Would be a fun little tie-in for your other videos, a sign or quick shoutout "4 months in to the YEAR experiment" or a countdown to reveal! I expect a 01-Jan-2021 launch video, hahahah! All aboard(happy098) I was just going to post the video in a year, but maybe an intro video and some reminder posts along the way would build anticipation. Lots of good ideas here. Thanks! Are you going to take some sneak peeks throughout the year and make minor adjustments to something like water level/slurry thickness. As long as you're not adding grit, I don't think you'd be cheating. I'd just hate to see you go the route of Geraldo Rivera and Al Capone's vault.
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Post by rockpickerforever on Dec 8, 2020 19:00:06 GMT -5
Seems like I remember captbob leaving barrels running untouched for 6 months or more but I do not remember if it was at stage one grit. Chuck Yes, captbob has done this and could probably share some insights. I don't see him posting around here much any more. Only when the urge moves him, lol. And it does not seem to move him very often. But he did post not too long ago, once in mid-November.
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Post by Jugglerguy on Dec 8, 2020 21:48:47 GMT -5
I was just going to post the video in a year, but maybe an intro video and some reminder posts along the way would build anticipation. Lots of good ideas here. Thanks! Are you going to take some sneak peeks throughout the year and make minor adjustments to something like water level/slurry thickness. As long as you're not adding grit, I don't think you'd be cheating. I'd just hate to see you go the route of Geraldo Rivera and Al Capone's vault. Nope, no peaking. There won't be a lot of effort on my part here, so if I open the vault and it's empty, it won't be a big deal. Disappointing, but I won't be out much at all. I can still make a video and show the disappointing results. We should learn something either way.
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Post by rockpickerforever on Dec 8, 2020 22:25:08 GMT -5
So Rob, are you saying you don't want to do a Geraldo? LOL. (Al Capone's Vaults.)
I have kind of done the extended tumbling you speak of, letting the grit break down to super fine. But then I did a full clean out, then ran with polish in the vibe.
My concern with tumbling for so long "unobserved" is that you would have no idea about slurry thickness. Knowing how thick my slurry got over time, I would think it would need to have water added.
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Post by Jugglerguy on Dec 9, 2020 11:22:52 GMT -5
So Rob, are you saying you don't want to do a Geraldo? LOL. (Al Capone's Vaults.) I have kind of done the extended tumbling you speak of, letting the grit break down to super fine. But then I did a full clean out, then ran with polish in the vibe. My concern with tumbling for so long "unobserved" is that you would have no idea about slurry thickness. Knowing how thick my slurry got over time, I would think it would need to have water added. I'll probably add a little more water than usual. I don't really expect it to get that thick because the grit shouldn't do much grinding after the first week or two. As it gets very fine, it should remove much less material and not produce so much rock dust. The smart thing would be to check on it from time to time, or to just use methods that are tried and true. But the whole point of this is to do something a little ridiculous. I don't have my expectations set very high. I'm not expecting to open it up to magnificently shiny rocks. I just think it will be fun to see what happens.
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Post by Bob on Dec 9, 2020 13:09:08 GMT -5
I like your idea Rob. If you want to make it easy on yourself, just weigh the whole thing--the whole sealed barrel before and after. It seems at first like a closed system and that weight might not change, but moisture might be lost through the rubber in that long of a time if such a thing happens. I think the owner of Lortone told me once that the composition of the barrels is very similar to tires and tires lose air over time. So in that way, it might be fun to weigh the barrel a few times to see if anything changes. I'm still rooting for aged Irish whiskey though, and if not, a single nugget of gold.
You expressed surprise at my barrels that had air in the middle and rocks and thick slurry glued to the circumference on some tumble that went more than 1 week. This has happened maybe 3 times in 3 years. The thought has occurred to me as to why didn't I hear that barrel because it would be been silent? The answer is probably that I have 4 tumblers running 9 barrels together in my garage, and they make some noise, and I had not noticed that one was silent. Currently there are 2 20lb barrels and 1 40lb barrel rubber-lined metal ones and these are so much louder than the 12 and 6lb rubber ones. I have another theory too on what could have happened.
I am very fond of tumbling rocks found on beaches and in rivers of all types, including rocks that I predict probably won't polish but might come out with a nice satin sheen. So I first do a Mohs test with a steel pick, and discard any that are too soft to tumble. However, hard rocks can sometimes have a soft rind, and doing a definitive Mohs test on those can be difficult. So sometimes I have to tumble in course a week to find out what I'm dealing with. I have this suspicion that rocks like that can soak up some water due to that weather rind. I think at least one of those problem batches had a lot of rocks like that. So I tend to overwater these days when putting a lot of rocks in with a weather rind on them. This puzzles me though because one would think that after pouring water in the barrel that the weather rind would soak to the max within seconds of getting wet. So maybe my idea on that is worthless. Perhaps it's the entire rock soaks up some water and some of that soaking happens after the barrel has been closed. Perhaps this happens with some granites and some quartzites etc. that may have some interstitial spaces.
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Benathema
has rocks in the head
God chased me down and made sure I knew He was real June 20, 2022. I've been on a Divine Mission.
Member since November 2019
Posts: 703
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Post by Benathema on Dec 9, 2020 13:35:58 GMT -5
Gonna open that barrel and hear a voice yell, "For thousands of hours I've laid dormant, who has disturbed my slumber?!"
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Post by Bob on Dec 9, 2020 14:10:04 GMT -5
As long as it's not a Balrog. That would be very hard on the rubber barrel.
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Post by Jugglerguy on Dec 9, 2020 18:17:15 GMT -5
I like your idea Rob. If you want to make it easy on yourself, just weigh the whole thing--the whole sealed barrel before and after. It seems at first like a closed system and that weight might not change, but moisture might be lost through the rubber in that long of a time if such a thing happens. I think the owner of Lortone told me once that the composition of the barrels is very similar to tires and tires lose air over time. So in that way, it might be fun to weigh the barrel a few times to see if anything changes. I'm still rooting for aged Irish whiskey though, and if not, a single nugget of gold. You expressed surprise at my barrels that had air in the middle and rocks and thick slurry glued to the circumference on some tumble that went more than 1 week. This has happened maybe 3 times in 3 years. The thought has occurred to me as to why didn't I hear that barrel because it would be been silent? The answer is probably that I have 4 tumblers running 9 barrels together in my garage, and they make some noise, and I had not noticed that one was silent. Currently there are 2 20lb barrels and 1 40lb barrel rubber-lined metal ones and these are so much louder than the 12 and 6lb rubber ones. I have another theory too on what could have happened. I am very fond of tumbling rocks found on beaches and in rivers of all types, including rocks that I predict probably won't polish but might come out with a nice satin sheen. So I first do a Mohs test with a steel pick, and discard any that are too soft to tumble. However, hard rocks can sometimes have a soft rind, and doing a definitive Mohs test on those can be difficult. So sometimes I have to tumble in course a week to find out what I'm dealing with. I have this suspicion that rocks like that can soak up some water due to that weather rind. I think at least one of those problem batches had a lot of rocks like that. So I tend to overwater these days when putting a lot of rocks in with a weather rind on them. This puzzles me though because one would think that after pouring water in the barrel that the weather rind would soak to the max within seconds of getting wet. So maybe my idea on that is worthless. Perhaps it's the entire rock soaks up some water and some of that soaking happens after the barrel has been closed. Perhaps this happens with some granites and some quartzites etc. that may have some interstitial spaces. I also tumble a lot of beach rocks and have never had a batch dry out like that. I have forgotten to add water or grit and was then surprised when I opened the barrel. I have had the lid pop off of Thumlers barrels and dry everything out. Never have I had a barrel lose all of its moisture. I've been tumbling for about nine years. I ordered a digital scale today to do some measurements. I'll try to remember to measure the entire closed barrel. I'm also considering running two barrels instead of one. I think I have some 60 grit aluminum oxide. If I do, that's about the same size as 46/70 that will be running in the other barrel. I think the aluminum oxide should come out shiner in the end, but the rocks might not be shaped quite as much. The shaping will probably be pretty difficult to see though because I'll be using rocks that are already somewhat rounded.
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Post by Bob on Dec 9, 2020 22:13:15 GMT -5
Rob, FYI I too have accidentally run dry barrels. Makes me feel like an idiot to open one of these messes after a week. But this was very different. And the slurry that glued the rocks centrifugally was not dry, just extra thick.
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Post by Jugglerguy on Dec 9, 2020 22:37:22 GMT -5
Rob, FYI I too have accidentally run dry barrels. Makes me feel like an idiot to open one of these messes after a week. But this was very different. And the slurry that glued the rocks centrifugally was not dry, just extra thick. Oh, I wasn't suggesting that your incident was due to forgetting to add water. The rocks don't stick to the sides when you do that, they just rattle around loose. I was just saying that for me, that is the only time I have opened a dry barrel.
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