Brian
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since July 2020
Posts: 1,512
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Post by Brian on Jan 12, 2021 20:19:07 GMT -5
Since we are just starting out with our tumbler, I want to make sure we learn the most we can from the mistakes are sure to make. I've read in many places (here, Steve Hart's Modern Rock Tumbling, and elsewhere) that a log book is key to keeping track of tumbles. I have started a simple Excel spreadsheet, but thanks to a great suggestion from NevadaBill , I'm going to switch that over to OneNote so that I can keep my spreadsheet, photos, and whatever ....
You will find what works best for you. No doubt about it.
I like OneNote for storing comments, articles, and pictures for all things that might be able to help me with my rock tumbling hobby. A great deal of that content comes from the RTH. I have gleaned a great deal more here than I actually put in to practice.
But I am an analyst and a scientist. Many say that I over-analyze stuff actually.
So in addition to compiling all of my notes in one place, I keep records on all of my tumblers in a separate (spreadsheet actually) as well.
So I actually do both... With the Excel though I don't have pictures or other folks advice on tumbling. That is all done within OneNote.
Yes you can create tables in OneNote, and reproduce much of what Excel can do within OneNote as well. But I keep a lot of notes.
I just find it easiest to keep track of progress on many hobbies or efforts within Excel. When copy/paste from other sources, pictures, links, or other fancy stuff is not needed, then Excel just gets it done for me. Man after my own heart, indeed!  Now that is a beautiful tumbling log! I'm a huge fan of color-coding and your notes section is excellent! For the record, it isn't possible to over-analyze anything... there is always at least one thing that I haven't thought of. |
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Post by jasoninsd on Jan 12, 2021 21:27:47 GMT -5
Holy smokes I haven't felt this inadequate in a long time! LOL
I thought I was doing pretty good with scribbling the date started, time started, grit type and amount, and what rocks are in the tumbler on a small legal pad kept in the garage next to the tumblers! LOL
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jamesp
Cave Dweller 
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,606
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Post by jamesp on Jan 13, 2021 6:31:04 GMT -5
Ahh but all the thinking  and experimenting!  What best size barrel? How big, how small? What best angle? 90, 45, 30., 15, level? What size rocks,? Pre-shape? Mix? What about slurry? Thick, thin? catlitter, clay, sugar, borax? Speed? Time? cleanouts . . . Exactly my problem. Too many variables for an overactive OCD brain like mine... it’s a wonder I can sleep at night. 🤪 Lately I’ve been wondering how the crystal structure of the rocks may impact how they are rounded. One way to simplify tumbling is to divide it into two processes Brian. The coarse grinding which shapes the rocks. This step is done with coarse SiC and simply removes material using a rotary tumbler. It is basic, about the only way to make a mistake in shaping is to bruise your rocks. It normally takes the longest time and the most abrasives. And then the finish steps that lay a polish down. These steps are all about the surface. Usually requires a step using fine SiC(220 or 500) to prep for aluminum oxide and 2 to 3 steps of aluminum oxide. These steps can be done in a rotary or a vibe. Vibe is much quicker and IMO user friendlier. |
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Brian
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since July 2020
Posts: 1,512
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Post by Brian on Jan 13, 2021 8:30:09 GMT -5
Holy smokes I haven't felt this inadequate in a long time! LOL I thought I was doing pretty good with scribbling the date started, time started, grit type and amount, and what rocks are in the tumbler on a small legal pad kept in the garage next to the tumblers! LOL In other words, you keep a perfectly useful log like any sane person would?!? One that provides all of the information that you would probably ever want or need? That’s just too logical! I am biologically programmed to take the road less traveled. Or simply to make things harder for myself through sheer stubbornness in my desire to learn absolutely everything I can about how things work. |
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Brian
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since July 2020
Posts: 1,512
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Post by Brian on Jan 13, 2021 8:36:21 GMT -5
Exactly my problem. Too many variables for an overactive OCD brain like mine... it’s a wonder I can sleep at night. 🤪 Lately I’ve been wondering how the crystal structure of the rocks may impact how they are rounded. One way to simplify tumbling is to divide it into two processes Brian. The coarse grinding which shapes the rocks. This step is done with coarse SiC and simply removes material using a rotary tumbler. It is basic, about the only way to make a mistake in shaping is to bruise your rocks. It normally takes the longest time and the most abrasives. And then the finish steps that lay a polish down. These steps are all about the surface. Usually requires a step using fine SiC(220 or 500) to prep for aluminum oxide and 2 to 3 steps of aluminum oxide. These steps can be done in a rotary or a vibe. Vibe is much quicker and IMO user friendlier. , when you put it like that, it makes it sound too easy! 😀 Mechanical engineers make things work and chemical engineers make things complicated. Edited to add that I am currently looking for a vibe. Not sure which model yet as they all seem to have their strengths. And availability of some models is severely limited at the moment. |
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Post by jasoninsd on Jan 13, 2021 10:47:47 GMT -5
One way to simplify tumbling is to divide it into two processes Brian. The coarse grinding which shapes the rocks. This step is done with coarse SiC and simply removes material using a rotary tumbler. It is basic, about the only way to make a mistake in shaping is to bruise your rocks. It normally takes the longest time and the most abrasives. And then the finish steps that lay a polish down. These steps are all about the surface. Usually requires a step using fine SiC(220 or 500) to prep for aluminum oxide and 2 to 3 steps of aluminum oxide. These steps can be done in a rotary or a vibe. Vibe is much quicker and IMO user friendlier. , when you put it like that, it makes it sound too easy! 😀 Mechanical engineers make things work and chemical engineers make things complicated. Edited to add that I am currently looking for a vibe. Not sure which model yet as they all seem to have their strengths. And availability of some models is severely limited at the moment. Don't create a spreadsheet with all the pros and cons...you'll never get a decision made! LOL.  |
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Brian
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since July 2020
Posts: 1,512
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Post by Brian on Jan 13, 2021 11:12:41 GMT -5
jamesp, when you put it like that, it makes it sound too easy! 😀 Mechanical engineers make things work and chemical engineers make things complicated. Edited to add that I am currently looking for a vibe. Not sure which model yet as they all seem to have their strengths. And availability of some models is severely limited at the moment. Don't create a spreadsheet with all the pros and cons...you'll never get a decision made! LOL. Luckily there are only 3 vibe options I’m considering, so I can keep the pros and cons of those in my head. To be honest, I did consider a spreadsheet. 🤓 |
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NevadaBill
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,332
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Post by NevadaBill on Jan 13, 2021 15:34:50 GMT -5
You will find what works best for you. No doubt about it...
Man after my own heart, indeed!  Now that is a beautiful tumbling log! I'm a huge fan of color-coding and your notes section is excellent! For the record, it isn't possible to over-analyze anything... there is always at least one thing that I haven't thought of. You know you are right. I am not over analytical when I really think about it.
For example in the past I've worked on large projects with German companies. They take specification, documentation and analysis to a whole new level. 
I cannot really consult much on the tumbling process but I am happy to help in any way I can though.
Best of luck! I can't wait really!
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,606
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Post by jamesp on Jan 14, 2021 4:46:30 GMT -5
Looking at the average tumbler set up with a vibe...
A 12 pound rotary turning at 30rpm +/- say 8 rpm is about the average rotary capacity for most hobbyists.
A good user friendly vibe to match is a 4 pound capacity Lot-O since it can handle the output of two 12 pound barrels.
The Lot-O will tumble obsidian to a rip polish easily. Telling of it's capability for softer rocks.
Obsidian is a must-do tumble.
You can build a rotary that rolls two - 12 pound Lortone barrels or purchase two - 12 pound Lortone rotary units.
It usually takes 4 weeks(soft rocks) to 6/8 weeks(Mohs 7 rocks) or quite longer to shape rocks in a 12 pound rotary.
It takes a Lot-O 10 days to 2 weeks to do the finishing steps.
So these machines compliment each other well in terms of production rates.
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Brian
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since July 2020
Posts: 1,512
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Post by Brian on Jan 14, 2021 21:52:29 GMT -5
Looking at the average tumbler set up with a vibe... A 12 pound rotary turning at 30rpm +/- say 8 rpm is about the average rotary capacity for most hobbyists. A good user friendly vibe to match is a 4 pound capacity Lot-O since it can handle the output of two 12 pound barrels. The Lot-O will tumble obsidian to a rip polish easily. Telling of it's capability for softer rocks. Obsidian is a must-do tumble. You can build a rotary that rolls two - 12 pound Lortone barrels or purchase two - 12 pound Lortone rotary units. It usually takes 4 weeks(soft rocks) to 6/8 weeks(Mohs 7 rocks) or quite longer to shape rocks in a 12 pound rotary. It takes a Lot-O 10 days to 2 weeks to do the finishing steps. So these machines compliment each other well in terms of production rates. The Lot-O is currently my top choice for a vibe. It seems to be the best all around for what I would want. Unfortunately, supplies seem limited for them right now, so I am either going to have to be patient or go with something else. I may try patience for a change. The next rotary will probably be homemade. Unless I find a good source for rough, I doubt we will need too much capacity. If anything, I may go with barrels of a few different sizes for variety in tumbling action. I’ve read through your threads on the barrels, too. Certainly a lot of food for thought. |
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Brian
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since July 2020
Posts: 1,512
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Post by Brian on Jan 15, 2021 12:42:40 GMT -5
Looking at the average tumbler set up with a vibe... A 12 pound rotary turning at 30rpm +/- say 8 rpm is about the average rotary capacity for most hobbyists. A good user friendly vibe to match is a 4 pound capacity Lot-O since it can handle the output of two 12 pound barrels. The Lot-O will tumble obsidian to a rip polish easily. Telling of it's capability for softer rocks. Obsidian is a must-do tumble. You can build a rotary that rolls two - 12 pound Lortone barrels or purchase two - 12 pound Lortone rotary units. It usually takes 4 weeks(soft rocks) to 6/8 weeks(Mohs 7 rocks) or quite longer to shape rocks in a 12 pound rotary. It takes a Lot-O 10 days to 2 weeks to do the finishing steps. So these machines compliment each other well in terms of production rates. The Lot-O is currently my top choice for a vibe. It seems to be the best all around for what I would want. Unfortunately, supplies seem limited for them right now, so I am either going to have to be patient or go with something else. I may try patience for a change. The next rotary will probably be homemade. Unless I find a good source for rough, I doubt we will need too much capacity. If anything, I may go with barrels of a few different sizes for variety in tumbling action. I’ve read through your threads on the barrels, too. Certainly a lot of food for thought. As luck would have it, compulsively checking online every day has paid off. The Rock Shed must have just restocked the Lot-O, so one should be on its way to me soon! |
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,606
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Post by jamesp on Jan 16, 2021 5:06:31 GMT -5
Bravo ! Can't go wrong with a Lot-O.
I do most rotary tumbling with 6 to 7 inch diameter barrels on a tumbler with a set of slow and fast shafts.
*If the barrels are the same size you can run several on one set of shafts.
Polish steps at low 30 rpm speeds, coarse grind at higher speeds.
This size barrel can be run at normal factory speeds of ~30rpm or crazy fast 80 rpm speeds.
By filling the barrel from 65% to 85% you can vary the aggressiveness of the tumble.
The average size tumbled rocks range in size from 1/2" to 2" making a 6 inch barrel great ratio of diameter to rock size.
Small diameter barrels might be better for soft rocks but softies can be run in a 6" barrel with a gentle rolling 85% fill.
Basically barrel speed and barrel %fill are the 2 controlling factors using a fixed size barrel in my method.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jan 16, 2021 5:37:19 GMT -5
Maybe a brilliant mathematician ( Brian ?) will show up on RTH to derive a formula for rock removal(grams)/time(days) in step 1 coarse grind using a dimensional analysis formula by entering quantities for variables such a barrel rpm, size of SiC grit, diameter of barrel, amount of SiC grit, viscosity of slurry as compared to water, percent barrel fill, ratio of barrel length to barrel diameter, clean out rate, temperature, octagonal verses round barrel, etc etc. Complicated processes with lots of variables are often analyzed for performance by using dimensional analysis. Basically you are entering numbers for each variable and multiplying them together to get a final performance number be it high or low. Example:  |
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Brian
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since July 2020
Posts: 1,512
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Post by Brian on Jan 16, 2021 7:50:47 GMT -5
Maybe a brilliant mathematician ( Brian ?) will show up on RTH to derive a formula for rock removal(grams)/time(days) in step 1 coarse grind using a dimensional analysis formula by entering quantities for variables such a barrel rpm, size of SiC grit, diameter of barrel, amount of SiC grit, viscosity of slurry as compared to water, percent barrel fill, ratio of barrel length to barrel diameter, clean out rate, temperature, octagonal verses round barrel, etc etc. Complicated processes with lots of variables are often analyzed for performance by using dimensional analysis. Basically you are entering numbers for each variable and multiplying them together to get a final performance number be it high or low. Example: Now we’re talking jamesp! I’ve been thinking a lot about your comment that it is the sliding motion of rocks that helps shape them as opposed to the impacts of rocks hitting one another. Modifying the barrel speed would certainly play a role in maximizing the desired movement, as would the angle of the barrel (see forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/73972/added-slik-angled-tumbler-arsenal). The angle of the barrel is interesting to me because you should also be increasing the surface area of rocks that would be sliding against one another. Changing the barrel speed would increase the time the rocks are sliding against one another—that is the time each rock is rubbing against the rock next to it before tumbling on to the next rock—but would inversely affect the speed at which they are sliding against one another. Effectively, I guess being able to change the angle of the tumbler would be similar to having an adjustable diameter barrel. As for variables, a significant one would be the rate at which the grit breaks down, which would govern how much rough shaping it could do before becoming less effective. There would probably be a different constant for each grit type, with constant being loosely used because that break down constant is likely a variable of the type or hardness of the rock being shaped. And I’m fairly certain that having to wonder about all of these parameters would suck all of the joy out of this hobby for 99% of the people. Maybe more. 🤪 |
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rocket
spending too much on rocks
Quality slabs for quality cabs in 2022
Member since September 2020
Posts: 292
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Post by rocket on Jan 16, 2021 8:22:51 GMT -5
Maybe a brilliant mathematician ( Brian ?) will show up on RTH to derive a formula for rock removal(grams)/time(days) in step 1 coarse grind using a dimensional analysis formula by entering quantities for variables such a barrel rpm, size of SiC grit, diameter of barrel, amount of SiC grit, viscosity of slurry as compared to water, percent barrel fill, ratio of barrel length to barrel diameter, clean out rate, temperature, octagonal verses round barrel, etc etc. Complicated processes with lots of variables are often analyzed for performance by using dimensional analysis. Basically you are entering numbers for each variable and multiplying them together to get a final performance number be it high or low. Example: Now we’re talking jamesp ! I’ve been thinking a lot about your comment that it is the sliding motion of rocks that helps shape them as opposed to the impacts of rocks hitting one another. Modifying the barrel speed would certainly play a role in maximizing the desired movement, as would the angle of the barrel (see forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/73972/added-slik-angled-tumbler-arsenal). The angle of the barrel is interesting to me because you should also be increasing the surface area of rocks that would be sliding against one another. Changing the barrel speed would increase the time the rocks are sliding against one another—that is the time each rock is rubbing against the rock next to it before tumbling on to the next rock—but would inversely affect the speed at which they are sliding against one another. Effectively, I guess being able to change the angle of the tumbler would be similar to having an adjustable diameter barrel. As for variables, a significant one would be the rate at which the grit breaks down, which would govern how much rough shaping it could do before becoming less effective. There would probably be a different constant for each grit type, with constant being loosely used because that break down constant is likely a variable of the type or hardness of the rock being shaped. And I’m fairly certain that having to wonder about all of these parameters would suck all of the joy out of this hobby for 99% of the people. Maybe more. 🤪 I think my head just exploded...Rocket |
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Post by jasoninsd on Jan 16, 2021 12:37:55 GMT -5
Now we’re talking jamesp ! I’ve been thinking a lot about your comment that it is the sliding motion of rocks that helps shape them as opposed to the impacts of rocks hitting one another. Modifying the barrel speed would certainly play a role in maximizing the desired movement, as would the angle of the barrel (see forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/73972/added-slik-angled-tumbler-arsenal). The angle of the barrel is interesting to me because you should also be increasing the surface area of rocks that would be sliding against one another. Changing the barrel speed would increase the time the rocks are sliding against one another—that is the time each rock is rubbing against the rock next to it before tumbling on to the next rock—but would inversely affect the speed at which they are sliding against one another. Effectively, I guess being able to change the angle of the tumbler would be similar to having an adjustable diameter barrel. As for variables, a significant one would be the rate at which the grit breaks down, which would govern how much rough shaping it could do before becoming less effective. There would probably be a different constant for each grit type, with constant being loosely used because that break down constant is likely a variable of the type or hardness of the rock being shaped. And I’m fairly certain that having to wonder about all of these parameters would suck all of the joy out of this hobby for 99% of the people. Maybe more. 🤪 I think my head just exploded...Rocket Keep it together Rocket! Just wait it out for jamesp and Brian to do all the complicated math...and then you and I both can ride their coattails on this one!  Just so you guys know, the answer is 42...according to The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. * Kidding aside, I love seeing people taking this stuff to the "Nth" degree...and being able to read where y'alls thoughts take you! |
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Prov
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2020
Posts: 116
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Post by Prov on Jan 16, 2021 12:41:46 GMT -5
I'm glad to see folks here who take things to scientific levels. I'm not ready (or equipped) to do so right now, but this always intrigues me to watch. And if I get anything out of it, that's even better!
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Post by parfive on Jan 16, 2021 14:59:42 GMT -5
And I’m fairly certain that having to wonder about all of these parameters would suck all of the joy out of this hobby for 99% of the people. Maybe more. 🤪 I think my head just exploded...Rocket Reminds me of when Sammie Clemens threw his tumbler away and went for a walk on the golf course.  |
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rockstock
spending too much on rocks
Member since April 2019
Posts: 472
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Post by rockstock on Jan 16, 2021 15:36:54 GMT -5
I'm not organized or patient enough to follow through with it. I bought a bunch of clipboards to try and document things for tumbling but abandoned it after the first go. May try a white dry erase board for dates started or something, something to improve on . Impatient in a patient hobby lol.
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Post by 1dave on Jan 17, 2021 2:32:04 GMT -5
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and experimenting! 
