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Brian If you don't remember me for anything else please remember me for the use sticky slicky slurry during step 1 coarse grind in the rotary.
The theory is simple and effective.
By both increasing the suction(cohesive forces)and adding lubrication via a slurry additive the grinding forces between the rocks increases the grinding forces between the rocks.
How effective ?
Starting a fresh dose of SiC 30 and colloidal clay slurry having a consistency of a milk shake the SiC 30 can be completely broken down in less than 2 days verses 7 days when starting with clean water. Because the slurry protects the rocks the rotation speed can be doubled/tripled without risk of damaging the rocks.
When speed was tripled(about 80 rpm using 6" I.D. barrel) with slurry additive used, the SiC 30 was completely broken down in 6 to 9 hours. The wear rate on the rocks followed the fast rates of SiC 30 breakdown. However a clean out and recharge of fresh SiC 30 was advisable every 24 hours.
The amp draw of the motor increased substantially due to thicker slurry and higher rotation speed.(best done with a home built tumbler with a bit more powerful motor).
Brian If you don't remember me for anything else please remember me for the use sticky slicky slurry during step 1 coarse grind in the rotary.
The theory is simple and effective.
By both increasing the suction(cohesive forces)and adding lubrication via a slurry additive the grinding forces between the rocks increases the grinding forces between the rocks.
How effective ?
Starting a fresh dose of SiC 30 and colloidal clay slurry having a consistency of a milk shake the SiC 30 can be completely broken down in less than 2 days verses 7 days when starting with clean water. Because the slurry protects the rocks the rotation speed can be doubled/tripled without risk of damaging the rocks.
When speed was tripled(about 80 rpm using 6" I.D. barrel) with slurry additive used, the SiC 30 was completely broken down in 6 to 9 hours. The wear rate on the rocks followed the fast rates of SiC 30 breakdown. However a clean out and recharge of fresh SiC 30 was advisable every 24 hours.
The amp draw of the motor increased substantially due to thicker slurry and higher rotation speed.(best done with a home built tumbler with a bit more powerful motor).
I have definitely noted your use of slurry thickeners, jamesp! From the red Georgia clay to kaolin to sugar, it’s been interesting to read about all of them.
Our slurries have been far to thin on our first few runs. Compared to the more successful tumblers I have seen here, we are not getting anywhere near the thick slurries that others are getting, so that is one of the first things I have noted in my log and will be trying soon.
Brian If you don't remember me for anything else please remember me for the use sticky slicky slurry during step 1 coarse grind in the rotary.
The theory is simple and effective.
By both increasing the suction(cohesive forces)and adding lubrication via a slurry additive the grinding forces between the rocks increases the grinding forces between the rocks.
How effective ?
Starting a fresh dose of SiC 30 and colloidal clay slurry having a consistency of a milk shake the SiC 30 can be completely broken down in less than 2 days verses 7 days when starting with clean water. Because the slurry protects the rocks the rotation speed can be doubled/tripled without risk of damaging the rocks.
When speed was tripled(about 80 rpm using 6" I.D. barrel) with slurry additive used, the SiC 30 was completely broken down in 6 to 9 hours. The wear rate on the rocks followed the fast rates of SiC 30 breakdown. However a clean out and recharge of fresh SiC 30 was advisable every 24 hours.
The amp draw of the motor increased substantially due to thicker slurry and higher rotation speed.(best done with a home built tumbler with a bit more powerful motor).
I want to give a big thanks to all who have read and posted in this thread! As a newcomer here, it’s been a fun thought experiment and I have enjoyed reading all of the responses, tips and feedback.
In my day job, 90% of my colleagues are PhD chemists, engineers and material scientists, and conversations tend to go off the deep end to brainstorm about things that can be done even if the improvements are so incremental that they will never be done. I have long ago realized that such discussions are tedious for most, so thank you for bearing with me and humoring my questions.
I will also note that our Lortone 33B was my Christmas gift to my kids who are 6 and 8. Probably surprising to anyone who has read this far, I have been letting them make all of the decisions for the tumbling. They are choosing the rocks and when to move them to the next step. The only things I have tried to teach them so far is that rocks have all different levels of hardness and what the different grits do to the rocks during tumbling.
The only perfectly shaped and polished rocks I will be seeing for a long time to come are the ones posted by the master tumblers here. Nevertheless, my kids will be making a lot of “perfect” rocks over the next few months that I will cherish forever.
(And their crazy dad will keep his tumbling log to learn from all of the wonderful mistakes until they (hopefully never) get tired of it.)
Brian If you don't remember me for anything else please remember me for the use sticky slicky slurry during step 1 coarse grind in the rotary.
The theory is simple and effective.
By both increasing the suction(cohesive forces)and adding lubrication via a slurry additive the grinding forces between the rocks increases the grinding forces between the rocks.
How effective ?
Starting a fresh dose of SiC 30 and colloidal clay slurry having a consistency of a milk shake the SiC 30 can be completely broken down in less than 2 days verses 7 days when starting with clean water. Because the slurry protects the rocks the rotation speed can be doubled/tripled without risk of damaging the rocks.
When speed was tripled(about 80 rpm using 6" I.D. barrel) with slurry additive used, the SiC 30 was completely broken down in 6 to 9 hours. The wear rate on the rocks followed the fast rates of SiC 30 breakdown. However a clean out and recharge of fresh SiC 30 was advisable every 24 hours.
The amp draw of the motor increased substantially due to thicker slurry and higher rotation speed.(best done with a home built tumbler with a bit more powerful motor).
Amen Brother!
Wow! Jim you just got an "Amen Brother!" from 1Dave. That's about as good as it gets!
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Brian If you don't remember me for anything else please remember me for the use sticky slicky slurry during step 1 coarse grind in the rotary.
The theory is simple and effective.
By both increasing the suction(cohesive forces)and adding lubrication via a slurry additive the grinding forces between the rocks increases the grinding forces between the rocks.
How effective ?
Starting a fresh dose of SiC 30 and colloidal clay slurry having a consistency of a milk shake the SiC 30 can be completely broken down in less than 2 days verses 7 days when starting with clean water. Because the slurry protects the rocks the rotation speed can be doubled/tripled without risk of damaging the rocks.
When speed was tripled(about 80 rpm using 6" I.D. barrel) with slurry additive used, the SiC 30 was completely broken down in 6 to 9 hours. The wear rate on the rocks followed the fast rates of SiC 30 breakdown. However a clean out and recharge of fresh SiC 30 was advisable every 24 hours.
The amp draw of the motor increased substantially due to thicker slurry and higher rotation speed.(best done with a home built tumbler with a bit more powerful motor).
I have definitely noted your use of slurry thickeners, jamesp! From the red Georgia clay to kaolin to sugar, it’s been interesting to read about all of them.
Our slurries have been far to thin on our first few runs. Compared to the more successful tumblers I have seen here, we are not getting anywhere near the thick slurries that others are getting, so that is one of the first things I have noted in my log and will be trying soon.
To give a good idea of how effective a thickened slurry can be consider mixing Portland cement in a wheel barrow:
Poor the gravel into the wheelbarrow. Add clean water. Using a hoe mix the gravel and water to wet the gravel. Start adding Portland and the force required to mix with the hoe goes up like 10 times. Instead of a rattling sound of the gravel in the water you begin to hear a quieter hard grinding sound as the Portland sucks the gravel together.
Same deal in a rotary. The power required to rotate increases due to the increased friction. The sound changes from a rattle in water to a quieter low grinding sound due to continuous rock contact in the sticky thickener. The silicon carbide is broken down many times faster and the rocks shape many times faster. But you have to add silicon carbide more often. Or do clean outs and add fresh SiC and slurry thickener more often. Many people may not want the added hassle of adding more SiC more often but if you want to speed step 1 it requires extra effort.
Instead of doing full clean outs due to an overly thick slurry it is easier just to pour off some of the slurry and add water to thin the existing slurry and add fresh SiC. I do this every 1 to 2 days if pushing step 1.
That 1st pictured slant tumbler was set at too steep a vertical angle and yes the rocks did slip in it 1dave. Liking the list of rag-tag Mad Max tumblers Dave. Walt proved there is no need for balled bearings, wood bearings suited him well. Did you know that nuclear subs and ocean liners use wood bearings for their prop shafts ?
That 1st pictured slant tumbler was set at too steep a vertical angle and yes the rocks did slip in it 1dave .
Liking the list of rag-tag Mad Max tumblers Dave. Walt proved there is no need for balled bearings, wood bearings suited him well. Did you know that nuclear subs and ocean liners use wood bearings for their prop shafts ?
No, I did not know that!
there is hard wood and soft wood. Walt said hard wood was best.
Wheelwrights liked Elm for the hubs. The twisted fibers stood the most wear.
I thought about building something you could just toss a 5 gallon bucket on.
I have definitely noted your use of slurry thickeners, jamesp ! From the red Georgia clay to kaolin to sugar, it’s been interesting to read about all of them.
Our slurries have been far to thin on our first few runs. Compared to the more successful tumblers I have seen here, we are not getting anywhere near the thick slurries that others are getting, so that is one of the first things I have noted in my log and will be trying soon.
To give a good idea of how effective a thickened slurry can be consider mixing Portland cement in a wheel barrow:
Poor the gravel into the wheelbarrow. Add clean water. Using a hoe mix the gravel and water to wet the gravel. Start adding Portland and the force required to mix with the hoe goes up like 10 times. Instead of a rattling sound of the gravel in the water you begin to hear a quieter hard grinding sound as the Portland sucks the gravel together.
Same deal in a rotary. The power required to rotate increases due to the increased friction. The sound changes from a rattle in water to a quieter low grinding sound due to continuous rock contact in the sticky thickener. The silicon carbide is broken down many times faster and the rocks shape many times faster. But you have to add silicon carbide more often. Or do clean outs and add fresh SiC and slurry thickener more often. Many people may not want the added hassle of adding more SiC more often but if you want to speed step 1 it requires extra effort.
Instead of doing full clean outs due to an overly thick slurry it is easier just to pour off some of the slurry and add water to thin the existing slurry and add fresh SiC. I do this every 1 to 2 days if pushing step 1.
Boy, talk about getting hit over the head for the light bulb to come on! This was one of the best analogies I've seen to understand the process going on in the tumbler...
Seriously, so simple of an analogy...yet it really struck a cord with me! Thanks jamesp!!!
Favorite Quotes: "It always seems impossible until it is done." - Nelson Mandela "Life becomes easier when you learn to accept the apology you never got." - Robert Brault "You can't wait until life isn't hard anymore before you decide to be happy." - Nightbirde (RIP 2/19/22)
I have definitely noted your use of slurry thickeners, jamesp! From the red Georgia clay to kaolin to sugar, it’s been interesting to read about all of them.
Our slurries have been far to thin on our first few runs. Compared to the more successful tumblers I have seen here, we are not getting anywhere near the thick slurries that others are getting, so that is one of the first things I have noted in my log and will be trying soon.
To give a good idea of how effective a thickened slurry can be consider mixing Portland cement in a wheel barrow:
Poor the gravel into the wheelbarrow. Add clean water. Using a hoe mix the gravel and water to wet the gravel. Start adding Portland and the force required to mix with the hoe goes up like 10 times. Instead of a rattling sound of the gravel in the water you begin to hear a quieter hard grinding sound as the Portland sucks the gravel together.
Same deal in a rotary. The power required to rotate increases due to the increased friction. The sound changes from a rattle in water to a quieter low grinding sound due to continuous rock contact in the sticky thickener. The silicon carbide is broken down many times faster and the rocks shape many times faster. But you have to add silicon carbide more often. Or do clean outs and add fresh SiC and slurry thickener more often. Many people may not want the added hassle of adding more SiC more often but if you want to speed step 1 it requires extra effort.
Instead of doing full clean outs due to an overly thick slurry it is easier just to pour off some of the slurry and add water to thin the existing slurry and add fresh SiC. I do this every 1 to 2 days if pushing step 1.
That is an excellent example. A thicker slurry makes complete sense to me.
An even more extreme example would be comparing sandpaper to loose grit. The sandpaper is like a slurry that completely immobilizes the grit. It works great for sanding wood because it keeps the grit particles in place and allows them to do their work over the entire length of the pass. A layer of loose grit, even if using a form to make the pass, would still allow for movement of the grit and you would not get the same efficiency.
In my mind, I think of the slurry as a fluid sandpaper that can get in all of the nooks and crannies. Too thin, and there is no resistance to carry the grit before it has a chance to do anything. Too thick and you would have cement with no movement at all. Just right, and you have nicely suspended grit that can be carried along in the liquid phase and have enough resistance to movement that it gets an efficient abrasion for each pass of an adjacent rock.
jasoninsdBrian SiC 30 break down experiment for a fast step 1. It would be nice to have constant SiC 30 injection.
SiC after 9 hours at 30 rpm with clay slurry. After 24 hours at 30 rpm the SiC was gone. Gravity and many clean water purges were used to separate the SiC from the rocks and slurry since SiC is dense. Separation steps - www.flickr.com/photos/67205364@N06/sets/72157677229423944 This experiment surprised me much.
A 6 inch I.D. barrel was used.
SiC 30 break down:
30 rpm/6" barrel/fresh clay slurry/virgin SiC 30/3/4" to 2" agate
The captured SiC 30 was put in a jar and placed on a vibe to separate particle size:
Constant SiC 50 injection using 'time release' crushed fused SiC 50 grinding wheels. I found about 200 pounds of these lead center bearing vintage 6 inch SiC grinding wheels in an industrial junk yard. Purchased them for $100.(most modern grinding wheels are AO because it is much cheaper than SiC). AO wheels useless for shaping. This relates to 'fixed sandpaper' rock tumbling Brian. It takes about 2 to 3 weeks for these chunks to break down. However these chunks will flat eat up a rotary barrel. And your rocks.
After 2 weeks SiC 50 chunks are rounding and so are rocks. First charge. Note this is rhyolite and is softer than agate at about Mohs 6. Agate will not shape this fast.
SiC 50 grinding wheel chunks are rounding off after 2 weeks running at 30 rpm. Note purple/red particles ?
Chunks generated a constant supply of SiC 50 to SiC 500 and smaller particles for 3 weeks for a 'time release' situation.
Constant SiC 50 injection using 'time release' crushed fused SiC 50 grinding wheels. I found about 200 pounds of these lead center bearing vintage 6 inch SiC grinding wheels in an industrial junk yard. Purchased them for $100.(most modern grinding wheels are AO because it is much cheaper than SiC). AO wheels useless for shaping. This relates to 'fixed sandpaper' rock tumbling Brian. It takes about 2 to 3 weeks for these chunks to break down. However these chunks will flat eat up a rotary barrel. And your rocks.
After 2 weeks SiC 50 chunks are rounding and so are rocks. First charge. Note this is rhyolite and is softer than agate at about Mohs 6. Agate will not shape this fast.
SiC 50 grinding wheel chunks are rounding off after 2 weeks running at 30 rpm. Note purple/red particles ?
Chunks generated a constant supply of SiC 50 to SiC 500 and smaller particles for 3 weeks for a 'time release' situation.
Thanks, jamesp! That already answered the next question I was going to ask regarding the ability to use a time-release abrasive. I would guess that you could help reduce some of the barrel wear by using smaller chunks, but then you would be sacrificing some longevity of the abrasive.
jasoninsdBrian SiC 30 break down experiment for a fast step 1. It would be nice to have constant SiC 30 injection.
SiC after 9 hours at 30 rpm with clay slurry. After 24 hours at 30 rpm the SiC was gone. Gravity and many clean water purges were used to separate the SiC from the rocks and slurry since SiC is dense. Separation steps - www.flickr.com/photos/67205364@N06/sets/72157677229423944 This experiment surprised me much.
A 6 inch I.D. barrel was used.
SiC 30 break down:
30 rpm/6" barrel/fresh clay slurry/virgin SiC 30/3/4" to 2" agate
The captured SiC 30 was put in a jar and placed on a vibe to separate particle size:
The loss of volume of SiC 30 after 9 hours:
Those photos showing the breakdown of the grit are excellent! It is impressive how much that grit broke down after such a short time.
Thanks for sharing the results of that experiment!
jasoninsdBrian SiC 30 break down experiment for a fast step 1. It would be nice to have constant SiC 30 injection.
SiC after 9 hours at 30 rpm with clay slurry. After 24 hours at 30 rpm the SiC was gone. Gravity and many clean water purges were used to separate the SiC from the rocks and slurry since SiC is dense. Separation steps - www.flickr.com/photos/67205364@N06/sets/72157677229423944 This experiment surprised me much.
A 6 inch I.D. barrel was used.
SiC 30 break down:
30 rpm/6" barrel/fresh clay slurry/virgin SiC 30/3/4" to 2" agate
The captured SiC 30 was put in a jar and placed on a vibe to separate particle size:
The loss of volume of SiC 30 after 9 hours:
So, the "time release" got me thinking. I don't know that it would necessarily be cost effective to produce (maybe on a massive scale), but what if the SiC was contained in a glass (or similar) sphere? Differing thickness of the glass would allow differing "timed" release of the contained SiC as the glass sphere was ground down by the existing grit/rocks. This would be the same principle as a time-release medicine capsule. Differing thickness spheres could be added to the initial load, so as the thinner thickness broke down and released after (let's just say) two days, the thicker of the two would now be the thickness of the first release and then release after another two days of grinding.
You wouldn't want a sphere the size necessary to contain enough replacement grit for the larger sized barrels, so multiple "smaller" spheres of the same thickness would likely have to be used...
Just a thought...
Favorite Quotes: "It always seems impossible until it is done." - Nelson Mandela "Life becomes easier when you learn to accept the apology you never got." - Robert Brault "You can't wait until life isn't hard anymore before you decide to be happy." - Nightbirde (RIP 2/19/22)
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