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Post by jasoninsd on Jan 13, 2021 9:33:23 GMT -5
So, I know the benefit to a thinner blade is less material loss. However, are there disadvantages to using thinner blades? Is there something to watch out for? Just looking for general thoughts and experiences. The reason I'm asking, is I'm looking at 10" continuous rim sintered blades and there are several different thickness options. I've seen 0.032", 0.040", 0.050" and I'm sure there's probably more than that... Any input is really appreciated.
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Post by manofglass on Jan 13, 2021 10:23:22 GMT -5
A thin blade can get bent much easier then a thicker blade
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Post by parfive on Jan 13, 2021 12:48:54 GMT -5
Oil or water in the saw, Jason?
Thicker kerf . . . oil gets gunked up quicker. Small saw = smaller reservoir, so more frequent oil changes Check w/Duke on that bone. : )
0.032 vs 0.050 56% more gunk 0.040 vs 0.050 25% more
0.050 is perfect in my 14” saw, so too thick for a 10” the way I see it, unless you’re just whacking tumbling rough w/water.
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Post by jasoninsd on Jan 13, 2021 14:26:45 GMT -5
Oil or water in the saw, Jason? Thicker kerf . . . oil gets gunked up quicker. Small saw = smaller reservoir, so more frequent oil changes Check w/Duke on that bone. : ) 0.032 vs 0.050 56% more gunk 0.040 vs 0.050 25% more 0.050 is perfect in my 14” saw, so too thick for a 10” the way I see it, unless you’re just whacking tumbling rough w/water. Water in the saw. Your math totally makes sense on the gunk.. but I'm not using oil... I was wondering about Walt's ( manofglass) concern of being ridgid enough with the 0.032" thickness...
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Post by greig on Jan 13, 2021 14:44:04 GMT -5
One thing I understand is a drop saw needs a thicker blade, but the blade to pick mostly depends upon the material being cut. I will assume agates. ;-)
I have heard good things generally about the 10" BD305 Agate Kutter. But if you want to save a few dollars, get the MK Hot Dog. Apparently, same blade, different name.
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Post by stardiamond on Jan 13, 2021 15:02:56 GMT -5
Smaller kerf more flex. I bought some 8 inch mk303 .032 blades and one of them was thinner and that also caused flex.
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Post by oregon on Jan 13, 2021 15:05:32 GMT -5
yeah, think I put a 0.32 mk 303 in my 10" saw thinking along those lines. It cuts fine, but when I replace it I'll probably get something thicker. Seems like it cuts fairly well, but on occasion when I slide the vise back I'll see the deflection of the blade. I think that if the surface is irregular at the start, the thinner blade has a more likely chance of heading off in a different trajectory.
All speculation. Cutting hard stuff here and I did line everything up with indicators etc. And yes, the less 'gunking of the oil' is noticable.
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Post by jasoninsd on Jan 13, 2021 18:17:40 GMT -5
One thing I understand is a drop saw needs a thicker blade, but the blade to pick mostly depends upon the material being cut. I will assume agates. ;-) I have heard good things generally about the 10" BD305 Agate Kutter. But if you want to save a few dollars, get the MK Hot Dog. Apparently, same blade, different name. Thanks Greig! It didn't even dawn on me that a drop saw would need a thicker blade! I'm glad you brought that up! (And yes...a lot of agates! LOL - Not Fairburns though...Crazy Lace and cousins. ) Smaller kerf more flex. I bought some 8 inch mk303 .032 blades and one of them was thinner and that also caused flex. Thank you. I'm glad you chimed in about the flex! yeah, think I put a 0.32 mk 303 in my 10" saw thinking along those lines. It cuts fine, but when I replace it I'll probably get something thicker. Seems like it cuts fairly well, but on occasion when I slide the vise back I'll see the deflection of the blade. I think that if the surface is irregular at the start, the thinner blade has a more likely chance of heading off in a different trajectory. All speculation. Cutting hard stuff here and I did line everything up with indicators etc. And yes, the less 'gunking of the oil' is noticable. I've been noticing deflection issues with my blade and I think it's a 0.060" from Harbor Freight...it's where I got the saw, so I just picked up whatever blade they had. I'm going to look into the blades Greig mentioned and Walt mentioned one to me awhile back as well.
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gemfeller
Cave Dweller
Member since June 2011
Posts: 4,060
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Post by gemfeller on Jan 13, 2021 18:37:12 GMT -5
yeah, think I put a 0.32 mk 303 in my 10" saw thinking along those lines. It cuts fine, but when I replace it I'll probably get something thicker. Seems like it cuts fairly well, but on occasion when I slide the vise back I'll see the deflection of the blade. I think that if the surface is irregular at the start, the thinner blade has a more likely chance of heading off in a different trajectory. I've made a habit of one thing that really helps avoid blade deflection. When I hear the first "ticking" of the blade on a new cut I disable the feed for a few seconds and let the blade make a clean notch to start. I do this several times until I feel the blade has cut a stable track. This is very important on nodules and other rounded surfaces that might cause early deflection. This is easy to do on my old Lortone since it has a separate switch to turn the feed on and off. That may not be the case with other saws so a work-around might be in order for those who want to do it.
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Post by jasoninsd on Jan 13, 2021 18:50:18 GMT -5
yeah, think I put a 0.32 mk 303 in my 10" saw thinking along those lines. It cuts fine, but when I replace it I'll probably get something thicker. Seems like it cuts fairly well, but on occasion when I slide the vise back I'll see the deflection of the blade. I think that if the surface is irregular at the start, the thinner blade has a more likely chance of heading off in a different trajectory. I've made a habit of one thing that really helps avoid blade deflection. When I hear the first "ticking" of the blade on a new cut I disable the feed for a few seconds and let the blade make a clean notch to start. I do this several times until I feel the blade has cut a stable track. This is very important on nodules and other rounded surfaces that might cause early deflection. This is easy to do on my old Lortone since it has a separate switch to turn the feed on and off. That may not be the case with other saws so a work-around might be in order for those who want to do it. Great tip right there Gemfeller! The saw I've got has a sliding table, so I should be able to do this without killing the power. I think MY issue with deflection is I haven't taken the time to put a vise on the table yet...so I've been gripping the rock like a vise with my right hand while working the saw with the left hand. It works most of the time! LOL - However, when I can feel the slight movement of the rock, it obviously alters the cut...and deflects the intended trajectory.
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Post by holajonathan on Jan 16, 2021 14:07:11 GMT -5
A friend of mine who cuts concrete for a living says that all else equal, the wider the blade the longer it lasts. This didn't make sense to me because a wider blade makes a wider cut, so I would have thought that blades would wear at the same rate regardless of thickness. He thinks it has something to do with the diamonds at the outside edges getting the hottest and fracturing more easily that the diamonds away from the edges. Plus, he says the wider the blade the straighter the cut, and straighter cuts cause less blade wear.
I don't know for certain that his theories are correct, but the guy runs 36" x 0.25" wide blades cuts thousands of feet with them at up to around 15 inches deep. He claims that a 36" x .250" blade will cut twice as long as a 36" x .187", even though it's only 25% thicker.
His formula for cutting concrete: the biggest / widest blade he can get + a Yanmar turbo-diesel powered saw with something like 60 HP and 200 ft./lb of torque + not rushing / forcing the saw faster than it wants to smoothly cut.
I know this is not a formula for cutting lapidary material, but I do believe that wider kerfs do last longer and under-powered saws wear blades faster because of the tendency to force rocks into the blade to try to get the job done.
He has quartered some big chunks of quartz and unakite for me with his 16" Husqvarna gas-powered concrete cut off saw using a 16" MK Diamond segmented granite blade that I gave him. He can make cuts are are nearly as straight and smooth as a slab saw in about 15-20 seconds up to a depth of around 6". If you ever have real big rough that you don't care a whole lot about, find someone with a big wet saw with an engine on it, whether it be a big gas powered masonry saw or a hand-held cut off saw. Getting huge rocks roughly quartered will save you a ton of time and effort trying to slab rough that is too big for your saw. At least that's my experience.
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rockstock
spending too much on rocks
Member since April 2019
Posts: 472
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Post by rockstock on Jan 16, 2021 14:26:59 GMT -5
I think the 16" concrete saw quick cut idea is great for unknown rocks or exploring what's inside then taking the ones that you're happy with further along to an actual rock saw. I got lots and lots that would be awesome to do on.
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Post by jasoninsd on Jan 16, 2021 15:07:51 GMT -5
A friend of mine who cuts concrete for a living says that all else equal, the wider the blade the longer it lasts. This didn't make sense to me because a wider blade makes a wider cut, so I would have thought that blades would wear at the same rate regardless of thickness. He thinks it has something to do with the diamonds at the outside edges getting the hottest and fracturing more easily that the diamonds away from the edges. Plus, he says the wider the blade the straighter the cut, and straighter cuts cause less blade wear. I don't know for certain that his theories are correct, but the guy runs 36" x 0.25" wide blades cuts thousands of feet with them at up to around 15 inches deep. He claims that a 36" x .250" blade will cut twice as long as a 36" x .187", even though it's only 25% thicker. His formula for cutting concrete: the biggest / widest blade he can get + a Yanmar turbo-diesel powered saw with something like 60 HP and 200 ft./lb of torque + not rushing / forcing the saw faster than it wants to smoothly cut. I know this is not a formula for cutting lapidary material, but I do believe that wider kerfs do last longer and under-powered saws wear blades faster because of the tendency to force rocks into the blade to try to get the job done. He has quartered some big chunks of quartz and unakite for me with his 16" Husqvarna gas-powered concrete cut off saw using a 16" MK Diamond segmented granite blade that I gave him. He can make cuts are are nearly as straight and smooth as a slab saw in about 15-20 seconds up to a depth of around 6". If you ever have real big rough that you don't care a whole lot about, find someone with a big wet saw with an engine on it, whether it be a big gas powered masonry saw or a hand-held cut off saw. Getting huge rocks roughly quartered will save you a ton of time and effort trying to slab rough that is too big for your saw. At least that's my experience. How does a person not take the word of someone who does something like this for a living? I absolutely buy into what he's saying. Thanks for saying something about the under-powered saws. That makes total sense as well. I think the 16" concrete saw quick cut idea is great for unknown rocks or exploring what's inside then taking the ones that you're happy with further along to an actual rock saw. I got lots and lots that would be awesome to do on. I agree. It absolutely makes sense to use the concrete saw at times. A person (not intended as you) has to understand when to use dynamite, and when to use kid gloves. LOL
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Post by RickB on Jan 16, 2021 15:43:09 GMT -5
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Post by jasoninsd on Jan 16, 2021 18:52:24 GMT -5
RickB - those were really cool videos! I've seen the wedge method before, but I've never seen the water pressure video. Wicked cool! It made me wonder if a similar method was used to cut the stones at Puma Punku. I can't imagine they could produce that amount of water pressure...but that's the first thing that popped into my head when I watched the video.
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NRG
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since February 2018
Posts: 1,688
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Post by NRG on Jan 16, 2021 23:02:06 GMT -5
A friend of mine who cuts concrete for a living says that all else equal, the wider the blade the longer it lasts. This didn't make sense to me because a wider blade makes a wider cut, so I would have thought that blades would wear at the same rate regardless of thickness. He thinks it has something to do with the diamonds at the outside edges getting the hottest and fracturing more easily that the diamonds away from the edges. Plus, he says the wider the blade the straighter the cut, and straighter cuts cause less blade wear. I don't know for certain that his theories are correct, but the guy runs 36" x 0.25" wide blades cuts thousands of feet with them at up to around 15 inches deep. He claims that a 36" x .250" blade will cut twice as long as a 36" x .187", even though it's only 25% thicker. His formula for cutting concrete: the biggest / widest blade he can get + a Yanmar turbo-diesel powered saw with something like 60 HP and 200 ft./lb of torque + not rushing / forcing the saw faster than it wants to smoothly cut. I know this is not a formula for cutting lapidary material, but I do believe that wider kerfs do last longer and under-powered saws wear blades faster because of the tendency to force rocks into the blade to try to get the job done. He has quartered some big chunks of quartz and unakite for me with his 16" Husqvarna gas-powered concrete cut off saw using a 16" MK Diamond segmented granite blade that I gave him. He can make cuts are are nearly as straight and smooth as a slab saw in about 15-20 seconds up to a depth of around 6". If you ever have real big rough that you don't care a whole lot about, find someone with a big wet saw with an engine on it, whether it be a big gas powered masonry saw or a hand-held cut off saw. Getting huge rocks roughly quartered will save you a ton of time and effort trying to slab rough that is too big for your saw. At least that's my experience. How does a person not take the word of someone who does something like this for a living? I absolutely buy into what he's saying. Thanks for saying something about the under-powered saws. That makes total sense as well. I think the 16" concrete saw quick cut idea is great for unknown rocks or exploring what's inside then taking the ones that you're happy with further along to an actual rock saw. I got lots and lots that would be awesome to do on. I agree. It absolutely makes sense to use the concrete saw at times. A person (not intended as you) has to understand when to use dynamite, and when to use kid gloves. LOL Well, if I'm cutting $15-$100/lb material a 1/4" kerf that removes a quarter pound hurts plenty. For concrete? Nobody cares. Lapidary stone is also about 50+ times harder than concrete.
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