rockrockrock
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since August 2016
Posts: 91
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Post by rockrockrock on Jan 23, 2021 13:15:44 GMT -5
A bizzare question indeed. I will try to keep this short. I own a company that makes high-end guitar picks. Believe it or not, our picks sell from $30-50 each, and we are currently hard at work on a $100 model. One of our most popular lines is made of a strange material called casein plastic. Casein is the world's first bioplastic and was discovered in Germany in 1895. It was used extensively in the last century in the jewelry industry, and to this day is known as the "Queen of Plastics." It is extraordinarily beautiful if done right, almost like a gemstone, and can be dyed any color and look stunning. It has some similarities to Bakelite, at least in appearance, although it is much harder to work with. Casein began to fall out of favor in the early 20th Century with the arrival of celluloid and other moldable plastics, because it cannot be injection-molded and instead is extruded into sheets or rods. You must machine the material to work with it. If you want to read a little history on this strange stuff, here's a brief primer: plastiquarian.com/?page_id=14228Now the bad news. It hates everything. It hates water. It hates heat. It hates sanding. It hates bending or flexing. Miserable stuff, but it happens to make the best guitar pick this side of genuine tortoise shell (now highly illegal). I use other materials that are highly specialized engineering plastics similar in their properties to Delrin, Acrylic, Celluloid, Nylon, etc., and we can deburr and radius the edges very successfully through either rotary tumbling in water, or vibratory tumbling dry. However, the casein picks will warp when tumbled in a vibratory unit and water turns them into mush. Thus my dilemma. I haven't tried to tumble them in a rotary tumbler with oil, as I'm pretty certain the oil will make everything stick together. Any thoughts? Oh, one last question. If I DID want to try this, is there an oil or spirit that might be the least sticky to try? Or perhaps just coat ceramic media with a film of WD-40 and go at it? Thank You! RRR
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Wooferhound
Cave Dweller
Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,428
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Post by Wooferhound on Jan 23, 2021 14:50:10 GMT -5
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reeniebeany
starting to spend too much on rocks
Rotary Only
Member since January 2020
Posts: 125
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Post by reeniebeany on Jan 23, 2021 15:48:45 GMT -5
Very bizarre! Be sure to post up your findings if you try it. Maybe sewing machine oil or other light machine oil?
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rockrockrock
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since August 2016
Posts: 91
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Post by rockrockrock on Jan 23, 2021 16:04:25 GMT -5
Good question, Woofer. The material is not so sensitive to the oils and moisture from the players hands and fingers that it causes it to misshapen. However, the material DOES "spoon out" or "dish out" slightly over time right where the thumb presses into the face of pick. Interestingly, I've been playing genuine tortoise shell picks (now highly illegal) over forty years (these are the world's best picks) and they do almost the identical thing. I've tried dry tumbling endlessly. The material warps, due to the heat from the friction of the grit. Also, in the high-end pick world many guitarists (such as Bluegrass folks) play picks at 2.0 mm (.080") thick, or thicker, so the process takes about three weeks. Then you STILL have to sand them down to sand through the warp. Maddening. I promise to view the post vids later. Thank You, rock rock rock
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rockrockrock
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since August 2016
Posts: 91
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Post by rockrockrock on Jan 23, 2021 16:07:51 GMT -5
Good question, Woofer. The material is not so sensitive to the oils and moisture from the players hands and fingers that it causes it to misshapen. However, the material DOES "spoon out" or "dish out" slightly over time right where the thumb presses into the face of pick. Interestingly, I've been playing genuine tortoise shell picks (now highly illegal) over forty years (these are the world's best picks) and they do almost the identical thing. I've tried dry tumbling endlessly. The material warps, due to the heat from the friction of the grit. Also, in the high-end pick world many guitarists (such as Bluegrass folks) play picks at 2.0 mm (.080") thick, or thicker, so the process takes about three weeks. Then you STILL have to sand them down to sand through the warp. Maddening. I promise to view the post vids later. Thank You, rock rock rock
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rockrockrock
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since August 2016
Posts: 91
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Post by rockrockrock on Jan 23, 2021 16:14:35 GMT -5
Very bizarre! Be sure to post up your findings if you try it. Maybe sewing machine oil or other light machine oil? That's the word! I will indeed. Even if I find the best materials, this may not work, but worth the experiement. The material is fine with any petroleum-based oils, so I just realized I can easily Google and find out the oils with the lowest viscosity, then give it a go. BTW, my company, now in its sixth year, started as a total fluke. I'm actually a full-time, tenured English professor. In 2015 I started experiementing with high-performance plastics to replace my aging TS picks (which grow brittle with age). After much searching, I happened on casein. It is amazing, truly the closest thing to genuine tortoise picks -- and legal. I made a few for myself, shared them with the buds I jam with, whereupon they asked me to make one for them. Dang -- six months later I turn around and I'm in the dang guitar pick business. Coulda knocked me over with a feather. BTW, no sales pitch here, but we're called Charmed Life Guitar Picks. I won't even put our website link here as, again, I'm not promoting. Actually, our lead times run four to six weeks and we've had to close our site four times in the last year (in the middle of a pandemic) just to catch up on demand. Crazy. Thank You! Scott (rockrockrock)
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Post by 1dave on Jan 24, 2021 9:28:07 GMT -5
Perhaps polishing is just for looks? Leave as is for best playing use? You have to be pretty careful handling polished cabs . . . slippery buggers, they are. Curious why polished guitar picks are not a problem. I've been told it is a problem. Any idea how to rough up the part you hold onto without making it look bad? I haven't come up with any thing yet. Sandblasting a circle there might work, but I don't have a sandblaster.
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Post by stephan on Jan 24, 2021 11:01:10 GMT -5
Similarly, I was wondering about a pick that hates bending or flexing.
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Post by rmf on Jan 24, 2021 11:37:36 GMT -5
That is an interesting question. I have never tried tumbling with oil due to the mess it would create and the cost. Also since most rubber tumbling barrels are made for water, would the oil effect the barrel material. If you did tumble with oil using a thin oil (low viscosity) like diesel or wd-40. There is also a fire hazard with oil that water does not have but it could be worth the test. It would be interesting how it turns out. Casein is a major component of cheese. Also, a lot of oil in cheese. So the would be cheddar picks?
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rockrockrock
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since August 2016
Posts: 91
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Post by rockrockrock on Jan 24, 2021 13:35:21 GMT -5
Perhaps polishing is just for looks? Leave as is for best playing use? I've been told it is a problem. Any idea how to rough up the part you hold onto without making it look bad? I haven't come up with any thing yet. Sandblasting a circle there might work, but I don't have a sandblaster. Good point, Dave. Casein picks, when done right, are the most physically beautifully guitar picks in the industry -- when done right. That cosmetic draw, combined with their superior tone and feel, make them very desirable for guitar players. But you're right -- the same material, sanded to about 1500 grit, performs just as well. What's happened over time is we've developed a very healthy blems and seconds business over the years. In fact some months we do more in blem sales than new. The casein material itself is not expensive, so this has really helped our bottom line, and in effect we now have two steady streams of income. Hope this explains it. rrr
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rockrockrock
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since August 2016
Posts: 91
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Post by rockrockrock on Jan 24, 2021 13:37:45 GMT -5
Perhaps polishing is just for looks? Leave as is for best playing use? I've been told it is a problem. Any idea how to rough up the part you hold onto without making it look bad? I haven't come up with any thing yet. Sandblasting a circle there might work, but I don't have a sandblaster. Dave, I just responded, then accidentally deleted the post. Dang. We sell a lot of seconds and blems, which is a good solid business for us, but most people will pay extra for one perfectly polished and buffed out. rrr
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rockrockrock
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since August 2016
Posts: 91
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Post by rockrockrock on Jan 24, 2021 13:41:27 GMT -5
Similarly, I was wondering about a pick that hates bending or flexing. Another good observation. Yes, it's a bit of a problem, except that most casein picks (and players of casein picks) play picks much thicker than a standard pick. The most popular guitar pick in the world is the Fender Medium, at about .73 mm thick. The most popular casein picks tend to be in the 1.50 mm range. But you're right. So we put a big red sticker that says "Do Not Bend!" on the baggie containing the pick. They get the message. rrr
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rockrockrock
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since August 2016
Posts: 91
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Post by rockrockrock on Jan 24, 2021 13:46:23 GMT -5
That is an interesting question. I have never tried tumbling with oil due to the mess it would create and the cost. Also since most rubber tumbling barrels are made for water, would the oil effect the barrel material. If you did tumble with oil using a thin oil (low viscosity) like diesel or wd-40. There is also a fire hazard with oil that water does not have but it could be worth the test. It would be interesting how it turns out. Casein is a major component of cheese. Also, a lot of oil in cheese. So the would be cheddar picks? Cheddar picks. I love it. I might have to try that. Actually, yes, casein, as a dairy protein derivative, has been used for millenia (sp?), mainly in paint. In fact I recently found an article reporting casein found in paint cavings dating back 49,000 (!!!) years. gurneyjourney.blogspot.com/2015/07/is-casein-oldest-paint.htmlYes on the flammability. I'm aware of that. I would tumble these outdoors for testing. We live is SoCal, so weather is generally not a problem. Thanks to you all for this lively discussion. rrr
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Wooferhound
Cave Dweller
Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,428
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Post by Wooferhound on Jan 24, 2021 15:56:32 GMT -5
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Post by oregon on Jan 24, 2021 16:46:16 GMT -5
That's the word! I will indeed. Even if I find the best materials, this may not work, but worth the experiement. The material is fine with any petroleum-based oils, so I just realized I can easily Google and find out the oils with the lowest viscosity, then give it a go.
I suggest you wander over to the chemistry dept and make a new friend. Seriously, this polymer is a protein, quite different than the bulk of plastic hydrocarbons. Without looking it up, I imagine the formaldehyde crosslinks as well as denatures the casein protein to form galalith. I'd also venture that the resulting 'plastic' still retains a bit of water, and the osmotic strength of what ever solution you put it in is probably important. I'd take a guess that you might find that some other protein solvents behave better than oils even though the galalith is no longer technically a protein. Glycerin, poly ethylene glycol,sugar, or maybe a high salt concentration keep it from absorbing water if you figure out the right concentrations.
2c
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rockrockrock
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since August 2016
Posts: 91
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Post by rockrockrock on Jan 24, 2021 17:13:41 GMT -5
That's the word! I will indeed. Even if I find the best materials, this may not work, but worth the experiement. The material is fine with any petroleum-based oils, so I just realized I can easily Google and find out the oils with the lowest viscosity, then give it a go.
I suggest you wander over to the chemistry dept and make a new friend. Seriously, this polymer is a protein, quite different than the bulk of plastic hydrocarbons. Without looking it up, I imagine the formaldehyde crosslinks as well as denatures the casein protein to form galalith. I'd also venture that the resulting 'plastic' still retains a bit of water, and the osmotic strength of what ever solution you put it in is probably important. I'd take a guess that you might find that some other protein solvents behave better than oils even though the galalith is no longer technically a protein. Glycerin, poly ethylene glycol,sugar, or maybe a high salt concentration keep it from absorbing water if you figure out the right concentrations. Oregon, great suggestions, and I thank you for them.
Thanks Again, RRR
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rockrockrock
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since August 2016
Posts: 91
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Post by rockrockrock on Jan 24, 2021 17:29:37 GMT -5
Woofer, yes, I saw the stone picks. Thanks for the links. I'm an academic by training, and I love research, so yes, I'm familiar with people making stone guitar picks. I suppose I'll sound a little full of myself, but in the high-end market guitar pick I probably know more about the materials used to make picks than anyone in the industry, and that comprises thousands of people. Every material, even casein, has its pluses and minuses. To be direct, stone does not make a guitar pick, and virtually none of the top players play them. Right out of the chute, they have two huge drawbacks: 1) They are far too heavy; and 2) They produce a horrible "click pick" when striking the strings, a total non-starter for a serious acoustic guitar player. People also make picks out of quarters and various metals: same problem. In addition to casein, we make picks out of several engineering thermoplastics, specifically PEEK Ketone and the most expensive plastic on the face of the planet, DuPont Vespel polyimide. These two materials have the advantage of being almost indestructible, but to many ears (mine, but also many world-class players) they don't sound as good as casein. TUMBLING WITH WALNUT SHELL: Yes, I've been doing this for years, and also with corn cob, but so far our success has only been about about 10K grit rating, in the final buff and polish stage. Here's my question: In those finer grits, we do tumble dry vibratory, but we use a small amt of mineral oil to bind the grit to the cob or shell. I have tried numerous times to tumble dry with those media, adding a couple tablespoons of, say, 220 grit powder, but the grit just descends to the bottom of the tumbler and sits there. Are you saying I might be able to bind these 220 granules to the cob or shell in the same manner, with mineral oil? If so, that sounds like an experiment worth conducting, as I haven't tried that before. My sense was that a 220 granule would be to heavy to bind. Would love to hear more about this. Thanks so much, Woofer. RRR
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Post by 1dave on Jan 24, 2021 17:38:53 GMT -5
Does frequency enter the equation?
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rockrockrock
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since August 2016
Posts: 91
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Post by rockrockrock on Jan 24, 2021 17:49:52 GMT -5
Does frequency enter the equation? Dave, hi again. Could you please clarify your question a little more? When you say "frequency" do you mean how often a guitarist plays the pick, or are you perhaps referring to how aggressive the vibe is on the tumble? Forgive me if I'm a little slow on the uptake today. RRR
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Post by 1dave on Jan 25, 2021 0:53:51 GMT -5
Does frequency enter the equation? Dave, hi again. Could you please clarify your question a little more? When you say "frequency" do you mean how often a guitarist plays the pick, or are you perhaps referring to how aggressive the vibe is on the tumble? Forgive me if I'm a little slow on the uptake today. RRR No, I was thinking about tumbling - specifically PICKS in a Lotto Vibro-tumbler immersed in something like talcum powder.
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