Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Mar 11, 2021 9:41:52 GMT -5
Howdy folks, Went into my library and came up with a little info on sedimentary agates like Dryheads, Fairburns, and TeePees. Clark says Tee Pees and Fairburns are from different formations but from what I've read they do evolve from similar environments. Some authors state both TeePees and Fairburns come from the Minnelusa Limestone Formation. The TeePees have a tan colored chert matrix surrounding the agate and chert usually develops as nodules in limestone. Clark states Fairburns eroded from a sedimentary matrix. This would still seem to be limestone or dolomite as nodules and veins of agate often occur in such environments. When I dug Dryheads, years ago, the nodules definitely occurred in a hard, dark brown, high silica limestone. Authors say this is the Embar Limestone Formation but is contemporary to the Minnelusa. Hard stuff . Had to go through about four feet of it before reaching the nodule bed. The matrix surrounding the agate in Dryheads is usually a dark brown chert. There were though, some off types of Dryhaeds that had a lighter colored matrix and often those showed colors different from the usual oranges and reds of regular Dryheads. So, it seems to me that what we have here are three very similar environments all yielding very similar fortification agates that differ only in color variations most likely due the the particular mineral salts in the silica that filled the voids in each locale. Each of those varieties does have pretty distinctive color variations though. Pretty easy to tell them apart once you've seen a bunch of them.
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Post by miket on Mar 11, 2021 10:34:20 GMT -5
Thanks Mel, very interesting to read. I appreciate you taking the time to post this! I've never dug for Dryheads, but I can tell you that the chert matrix on the Teepees is some pretty hard stuff! As far as the Fairburns go, I've never found them to be in a "standard" matrix (as jasoninsd stated). Sometimes I've been fortunate to find them with no matrix at all but usually they are in some sort of host rock. Which I guess would actually be considered a matrix. I have all three that I'll try and get some closeups of today and post to this thread if I can find similar patterns- if you don't mind?
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Post by jasoninsd on Mar 11, 2021 10:41:43 GMT -5
Mel - thank you for taking the time to dig through the books and post this! This is good information! I am still amazed at the similarities between Teepee Canyon Agates and Dryhead Agates. The fortification colors are strikingly similar, whereas the fortification colors in Fairburn Agates are so varied. I realize this occurs due to the types of minerals involved during formation...but to have such similar minerals present for the Teepees and Dryheads is pretty fascinating. I still think there's something I'm missing though. Both Teepees and Dryheads have to me "mined" out of their environmet - whereas Fairburns are already "roaming freely". If Fairburns are so similar to the other two, why wouldn't they still need to be mined? And why is there such a variation with the "host rock" in Fairburns, whereas both Teepees and Dryheads are found with the same matrix respectively?
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Post by miket on Mar 11, 2021 11:08:38 GMT -5
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USMC15
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Post by USMC15 on Mar 11, 2021 11:10:48 GMT -5
Yes, I find this fascinating. I will learn more on rock identification when I get into the fields. Agates do amaze me and their beauty surpasses most rocks.
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Mar 11, 2021 17:32:17 GMT -5
Roger Clark , in his first book stated Fairburns have been found in situ in host rock in the black hills. The matrix of Fairburns has often been referred to as jasper but to me, chert matrix, like TeePees and Dryheads, makes more sense as chert arises from sedimentary formations whereas jasper is more in igneous deposits. It was proposed that TeePees, also being from Minnelusa Limestone, are actually just a variety of Fairburn that is in situ. If you look at the pics in Clark's book, boy some of the Fairburns do bear a strong resemblance the Tee Pees.
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stefan
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Post by stefan on Mar 13, 2021 19:00:39 GMT -5
Great info! Reminds me of digging (hard rock mining) for Herkimer Diamonds (quartz) Host rock is Dolomite and will reduce a strong able body person to tears after a day of swinging a sledgehammer hammer! I brought home 100 lbs of host rock on my last trip out there and it took me almost a year to break it all up (working for about an hour at a time just about every Saturday evening)
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Post by hummingbirdstones2 on Mar 13, 2021 23:01:32 GMT -5
Okay, I'm "un-schooled" in the finer points of these agates. Have seen them, but know next to nothing about them.
We have Teepee Cyn rough and a split Dryhead specimen, but that's it. I would guess Teepee, Fairburn, and then Dryhead for the three photos.
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Post by miket on Mar 14, 2021 4:58:54 GMT -5
Okay, I'm "un-schooled" in the finer points of these agates. Have seen them, but know next to nothing about them.
We have Teepee Cyn rough and a split Dryhead specimen, but that's it. I would guess Teepee, Fairburn, and then Dryhead for the three photos.
Close, Vince. Fairburn, Teepee, Dryhead. I tried to pick a few with similar colors. And I'm un-schooled in all three, also. Plus there are so many other banded agates that look like these that I don't know how people tell them apart sometimes. I guess some people can even tell where a Fairburn was found by it's coloration,...but that's not me. 🙂
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Post by stephan on Mar 21, 2021 19:30:44 GMT -5
Great info and pics. It seems like these agates share some similarities with crazy lace, when it comes to their formation.
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Post by stephan on Mar 22, 2021 22:28:57 GMT -5
Thanks for the informative post Sabre52. I do have a question. In the Thunderegg thread, I believe that 1dave stated that fortification agates form at high pressure/temp, and that under more normal conditions leveling lines form (I can’t find the post now, so I hope I don’t have it backwards). If that is the case, what is the mechanism by which fortification agates form in sedimentary agates? I would imagine that those conditions favor leveling lines.
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Mar 23, 2021 8:12:58 GMT -5
I think that is backwards Stephan. I believe agates form at low pressure and temperatures and they form quite fast. ( fast being hundreds of years of course) Regarding the waterline type formations, that is an interesting question and I'd have to do some serious reading to try and answer that one. I don't recall seeing a lot of waterline formations in sedimentary fortification agates like Dryheads etc, but they are quite common in t-eggs and gas pocket type nodules like Brazilians, Bots, Queenies etc found in basalt. And yes, crazy lace is found in limestone or dolomite so is sedimentary in nature.
OK read several theories with lots of experts arguing over agate formation. Seems as though one theory states waterline agates occur in volcanics because "vibration" makes those layers settle first and as it diminishes the other layers form around the edge. * scratching head*. OK if they say so. Theories say alkaline conditions are required to carry silica into voids from overlaying volcanic ash deposits. Perhaps we don't see waterline layers in sedimentary agate because the cooling action found in volcanics is not present in sedimentary layers so no vibrations to make initial silica settle to the bottom of the nodule thus making the layers form continuously around the edge of the cavity being filled.
Or , maybe I'm confused after reading all these theories and have boiled the information down all wrong *L*. Lenz's agate books go into agate formation in excessive detail if any of you want to find one and give it a read. I just prefer chemistry made purdy rocks for us to find.
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Post by 1dave on Mar 23, 2021 9:59:59 GMT -5
Thanks for the informative post Sabre52. I do have a question. In the Thunderegg thread, I believe that 1dave stated that fortification agates form at high pressure/temp, and that under more normal conditions leveling lines form (I can’t find the post now, so I hope I don’t have it backwards). If that is the case, what is the mechanism by which fortification agates form in sedimentary agates? I would imagine that those conditions favor leveling lines. I have to recant. My younger brothers worked for Texas Instruments back in the days when transistors were being invented and gave me access to their texts on growing quartz crystals, so I KNEW quartz formed at high temperatures. Last year I found out about that Australian guy who was talking about silica gel forming at low temperatures during earthquakes, flowing with ground waters and dragging gold along as it formed "rotten quartz." forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/post/1133807/threadThere are quite a few PDF's out now about how agate is formed by earthquake generated silica gel becoming opal, tridymite, and opal cristobalite particles that flow into cavities. IF the flow fills the cavity, the molecules attach everywhere - Fortification. IF the flow is shallow, the molecules settle to the bottom. - Waterline. forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/post/1141640/thread
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Post by 1dave on Mar 23, 2021 10:33:57 GMT -5
Oh, each new filling can re-dissolve some of the previous crystals.
Many years ago I dug into a wet agate seam that fell apart in my hands. I dug a trench and let it dry and it hardened. That experience left me puzzled for many years.
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wpotterw
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Post by wpotterw on Mar 23, 2021 11:25:23 GMT -5
Thanks for the informative post Sabre52 . I do have a question. In the Thunderegg thread, I believe that 1dave stated that fortification agates form at high pressure/temp, and that under more normal conditions leveling lines form (I can’t find the post now, so I hope I don’t have it backwards). If that is the case, what is the mechanism by which fortification agates form in sedimentary agates? I would imagine that those conditions favor leveling lines. I have to recant. My younger brothers worked for Texas Instruments back in the days when transistors were being invented and gave me access to their texts on growing quartz crystals, so I KNEW quartz formed at high temperatures. Last year I found out about that Australian guy who was talking about silica gel forming at low temperatures during earthquakes, flowing with ground waters and dragging gold along as it formed "rotten quartz." forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/post/1133807/threadThere are quite a few PDF's out now about how agate is formed by earthquake generated silica gel becoming opal, tridymite, and opal cristobalite particles that flow into cavities. IF the flow fills the cavity, the molecules attach everywhere - Fortification. IF the flow is shallow, the molecules settle to the bottom. - Waterline. forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/post/1141640/threadCheck out this book - www.ebay.com/itm/Genesis-and-Classification-of-Agates-and-Jaspers-a-New-Theory-book-in-english-/321639752169 This guy has a name for everything and access to some of the coolest agates and jaspers in the world
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Post by stephan on Mar 23, 2021 13:09:27 GMT -5
Oh, each new filling can re-dissolve some of the previous crystals. Many years ago I dug into a wet agate seam that fell apart in my hands. I dug a trench and let it dry and it hardened. That experience left me puzzled for many years. A wet agate seam? Wow! That has to be a once-in-a-lifetime experience. Educational and sad to have it fall apart, all at the same time. Thanks for clarifying. The full vs. partial filling makes 100% sense. So seam agates with lacy, but not fortification agate could (maybe?) be formed similar to leveling lines, but with something like ground motion to perturb them when they are mostly, but not entirely solidified.... Interesting stuff. You'll have to excuse me. I think I have an extra copy of the "Why" chromosome.
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Mar 23, 2021 13:12:56 GMT -5
Great information Dave! I had a similar experience with digging poppy jasper one time. Buried wet stuff looked OK till the pick hit it and then it was almost spongy and fibrous. Never thought to let it dry, just chucked it out, but spongy jasper, that was just weird. It was like the pattern and fibers formed but silica was either leached out of did not permeate the material.
Dogtooth crazy lace is especially interesting as the agate replaces dogtooth aragonite in that alkaline limestone environment making perfect pseudomorphs after the crystals and of course crazy lace is often full of pseudomorphs after acicular crystals forming those nice sagenite sprays and eyes.
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Post by 1dave on Mar 23, 2021 13:26:34 GMT -5
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