Brian
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since July 2020
Posts: 1,512
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Post by Brian on Apr 30, 2021 10:27:34 GMT -5
Interesting article Robin What little I could peruse this busy morn Quick thought Perhaps some stones Have a higher chance To undercut with finer grits> In example the finer grits have a tendency to rip out looser micro grains in the stone ? time to ride Good thought Ed.  I have experienced the "undercutting" on cabs...but I really don't believe this is an undercutting issue. The scratches are linear - they're following the spinning of the disk...I can change the direction of the scratches by turning the cab 90 degrees. That's how I knew "something" in the disk itself was causing the scratching... That last statement about being able to control the scratches by turning it 90 degrees implies that it is something in the Eastwind disk causing the scratches, and not simply exposing prior scratches. The only thing that made sense about their response is that their disks are more aggressive than the Hi-Tech. I’ve used enough different brands and types of sandpaper that I believe there is a difference and one brand’s 400 grit is not necessarily the same as another brand’s 400 grit. They could use different screening processes, adhere the grit differently, or use more or less aggressive grit, any of which could make a difference. How random are the deep scratches? If they are not uniform, that sounds more like contamination. |
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Post by hummingbirdstones on Apr 30, 2021 10:31:42 GMT -5
If those scratches are following the disc rotation, then yeah it's not subsurface damage. Sounds like a rogue diamond on there. For some reason (which I can't remember and probably didn't understand when I read it), diamond has an affinity to those erasers. Try that and see if it helps. If you can isolate where on the lap the scratches are happening on the stone you'll know where to concentrate your efforts.
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Post by mohs on Apr 30, 2021 10:32:38 GMT -5
that intense jase
your way ahead of me in the data gathering department
seems like ya narrowed it down to the wheel structure
not technique or the stone
science !
altho as that article stated
devising experiments to determine what's going on with polishing
is notoriously difficult...
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Post by hummingbirdstones on Apr 30, 2021 10:40:24 GMT -5
I actually use a dish drainer for storage, so each of the disks are not touching each other (like plates in the dish drainer)... When you store those discs in the dish drainer, are you putting them in plastic ziploc bags? They need to be in bags. Anything flying around in the air could land on them and contaminate them if they're exposed when you're not using them. Of course, always let them fully dry before you put them in the bags otherwise they'll get moldy.  |
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Post by jasoninsd on Apr 30, 2021 11:20:32 GMT -5
I actually use a dish drainer for storage, so each of the disks are not touching each other (like plates in the dish drainer)... When you store those discs in the dish drainer, are you putting them in plastic ziploc bags? They need to be in bags. Anything flying around in the air could land on them and contaminate them if they're exposed when you're not using them. Of course, always let them fully dry before you put them in the bags otherwise they'll get moldy. Nope. I sure am not. Perhaps we're narrowing this down! LOL I was using the dish drainer because I was moving so quickly between disks, I thought it would allow them time to dry and would be separated enough not to cross contaminate each other. I didn't think about flying debris... I've washed them thoroughly, and now have them segregated. My wife is grabbing that eraser for me on her trip to Wally world, so I'll be able to work them later and see if it was simply a cross contamination issue, or if there is something imbedded into the disk... I'll start storing everything in ziplock bags...but I'll have to figure out how to keep things segregated before putting them in the bags while they're not dry. |
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Post by rockjunquie on Apr 30, 2021 11:25:37 GMT -5
When you store those discs in the dish drainer, are you putting them in plastic ziploc bags? They need to be in bags. Anything flying around in the air could land on them and contaminate them if they're exposed when you're not using them. Of course, always let them fully dry before you put them in the bags otherwise they'll get moldy. Nope. I sure am not. Perhaps we're narrowing this down! LOL I was using the dish drainer because I was moving so quickly between disks, I thought it would allow them time to dry and would be separated enough not to cross contaminate each other. I didn't think about flying debris... I've washed them thoroughly, and now have them segregated. My wife is grabbing that eraser for me on her trip to Wally world, so I'll be able to work them later and see if it was simply a cross contamination issue, or if there is something imbedded into the disk... I'll start storing everything in ziplock bags...but I'll have to figure out how to keep things segregated before putting them in the bags while they're not dry.
I store in zipper (not zip lock) bags, too. But, I leave the top open so they can get air.
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Post by hummingbirdstones on Apr 30, 2021 19:29:06 GMT -5
I usually spin them dry and then put them on top of my Genie or surrounding area in the sun. Then pop them in their respective bags when they're dry. I just said Ziploc because that's what I use, but I don't seal the tops on the bags, either. I have them in a box that fits the size quite well in order and they go back there as soon as they're dry. They live under the table when I'm not using them. 
ETA: Put them in the dish rack while they dry. If they are near where you're working, make sure they're facing away from you.
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Post by jasoninsd on May 1, 2021 0:03:58 GMT -5
Good thought Ed. I have experienced the "undercutting" on cabs...but I really don't believe this is an undercutting issue. The scratches are linear - they're following the spinning of the disk...I can change the direction of the scratches by turning the cab 90 degrees. That's how I knew "something" in the disk itself was causing the scratching... That last statement about being able to control the scratches by turning it 90 degrees implies that it is something in the Eastwind disk causing the scratches, and not simply exposing prior scratches. The only thing that made sense about their response is that their disks are more aggressive than the Hi-Tech. I’ve used enough different brands and types of sandpaper that I believe there is a difference and one brand’s 400 grit is not necessarily the same as another brand’s 400 grit. They could use different screening processes, adhere the grit differently, or use more or less aggressive grit, any of which could make a difference. How random are the deep scratches? If they are not uniform, that sounds more like contamination. Brian, I'm so sorry. I don't know how I missed your post this morning. I know there can be differences in the grits of sandpaper, same as in these disks. I guess my point was, I couldn't see there being THAT much variation between a 500 grit for one manufacturer and an 8000 grit for another. With them saying their disks are "more aggressive", I just couldn't see that it being over 7500 grit worth of difference. (If that makes sense...) They're uniform... If those scratches are following the disc rotation, then yeah it's not subsurface damage. Sounds like a rogue diamond on there. For some reason (which I can't remember and probably didn't understand when I read it), diamond has an affinity to those erasers. Try that and see if it helps. If you can isolate where on the lap the scratches are happening on the stone you'll know where to concentrate your efforts. I cleaned them...very thoroughly with Dawn dish soap and a scrub brush. I ran the eraser over the surface like Vince said to do...and the 8000 still scratched the Thunderegg I was working today... I usually spin them dry and then put them on top of my Genie or surrounding area in the sun. Then pop them in their respective bags when they're dry. I just said Ziploc because that's what I use, but I don't seal the tops on the bags, either. I have them in a box that fits the size quite well in order and they go back there as soon as they're dry. They live under the table when I'm not using them.
ETA: Put them in the dish rack while they dry. If they are near where you're working, make sure they're facing away from you.
I will definitely be putting the disks in bags from now on. I just wasn't expecting there to be a cross-contamination issue with the disks. I know the importance with the different grits in tumbling, but just assumed there wouldn't be any issues with escaping diamonds off the disks going onto another one... As I stated above, I tried to clean these up to see if there was any cross-contamination, but the same scratches appeared today. I don't know how this could be anything other than rogue diamonds on the disks now... |
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stefan
Cave Dweller 
Member since January 2005
Posts: 14,113
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Post by stefan on May 1, 2021 5:55:28 GMT -5
100% bad disks. IF you were missing stuff, or whatever, the 800 grit pad would have been stripped of all it's diamond by now. I'm guessing the scratches are all uniform. so if you say missed scratches from the previous grit 1200, 3000?) You go to run on the 8000 and those missed scratches would be wise enough to grab the diamonds on the 8000 and year them right out of the resin. You would see little flares (sparks) as the diamond chipped and tore out of the resin. Heck you may even smell the resin melting slightly as the diamonds tore out. Plain and simple is these pads are a lot courser than advertised. My guess would be you have a 3000 grit instead of 8000 and a 8000 instead of a 14000. It may be even courser but there is no way you should see scratches after 14000.
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Post by rockjunquie on May 1, 2021 6:16:25 GMT -5
Dang Jason. After all that- all I can say is it's not exactly a ringing endorsement for Eastwing correction Eastwind.
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Post by jasoninsd on May 1, 2021 8:50:51 GMT -5
100% bad disks. IF you were missing stuff, or whatever, the 800 grit pad would have been stripped of all it's diamond by now. I'm guessing the scratches are all uniform. so if you say missed scratches from the previous grit 1200, 3000?) You go to run on the 8000 and those missed scratches would be wise enough to grab the diamonds on the 8000 and year them right out of the resin. You would see little flares (sparks) as the diamond chipped and tore out of the resin. Heck you may even smell the resin melting slightly as the diamonds tore out. Plain and simple is these pads are a lot courser than advertised. My guess would be you have a 3000 grit instead of 8000 and a 8000 instead of a 14000. It may be even courser but there is no way you should see scratches after 14000. Thanks for chiming in. We all know I'm far from an expert about all this stuff...but...I really don't think they're the wrong grits. The scratches are far enough apart (say 0.5-1mm) for me to think it's more of a clumped diamond issue that isn't getting taken care of while dressing these disks. They definitely feel like they should be 8000 and 14,000 grits when I run my fingers over the wet surface - there's absolutely no coarse feeling at all - they're very smooth to the touch. Dang Jason. After all that- all I can say is it's not exactly a ringing endorsement for Eastwing. I'm hoping I can hold off anyone's ill-feelings for another couple days... Sorry I didn't post this last night, but it had been a long day and my mind wasn't in the mood for anymore negatives last night. I hope everyone can forgive me for not getting this info out sooner. Yesterday afternoon, I called the "Joe" that was mentioned in the email. He didn't answer, so I left a message. Joe is not with Eastwind. He is a cab maker in Delaware who Eastwind has dealt with and talks to him about cab making issues. When I had spoke to Lisa from Eastwind late last week, she had said they would replace the disks, but she wanted to talk to "their" lapidary guy before sending out the replacements. I received an email from Lisa the following Monday and in it was the excerpt I put in the thread earlier. Along with that information, she had said it was suggested that I should use ALL Eastwind disks rather that some from Hi-Tech then switching to theirs - and if I chose to do that, they would give me an exceptional deal on the purchase. However, I didn't want to do that as my Hi-Tech disks are relatively new - and I have an entire set of backup disks already purchased for when these disks go bad. So, it would be another chunk of money to get their disks - and a ton of money for non-used disks from Hi-Tech. It also seemed in the email that they weren't going to replace the disks as they were going off what Joe's recommendation as to what the problem was...so that's when I decided to start this thread, so as to get some of MY lapidary people's opinions before I pushed this further. Fast forward again to yesterday evening. Joe did call me back later in the evening last night. A very pleasant individual to talk with who said he's had 25-30 years experience in cabmaking. He started to say he thought the issue was "missed" scratches...I stopped him there and assured him I did know 100% they were not missed. He was okay with that and seemed to believe that I knew that much at least. Then he started to say he thought the issue was moving from the Hi-Tech Disks which had a "low density" concentration of diamonds to Eastwind Disks which were "high density". I told him about the statement from Robin in which she has used the same combination of disks without issues. He did admit at this point that he's never used a flat lap for any cab making and it's all been on an expanding drum cab machine. So, after justifying my stance on all of his thoughts on what could be the problem, he said maybe they are just disks with bad spots of diamonds. He said he thought Eastwind would replace them as they stand behind their product. I told him it sounded like they weren't going to do that per their conversation with him, and I asked him if he would be willing to tell them his recommendation now of replacing the disks. He said he definitely would do that. Again, a very pleasant conversation and he even said to call him or text him anytime in the future with any type of lapidary questions. So, I will be sending Eastwind an email this weekend with the results of this thread along with the results of the conversation with "Joe" and we'll see if they will stand behind their product and replace the disks based upon the recommendation of "their" lapidary guy - I have an idea they will. I will let everyone know the outcome of the communication with Eastwind, as I don't want anyone to be thinking ill of a company that may have just had a couple bad disks slip through QA - especially if they're willing to replace them with good disks. I also want to thank EVERYONE who was willing to chime in with thoughts; suggestions, and ideas on this whole matter. It means a lot to me that you all were willing to offer advice and thoughts on what could possibly be the issue - and potential solutions. I really needed to know if I was doing something wrong, or if it was the disks. Plus, I definitely learned several new things out of this thread, so it was definitely worth posting about this (better storage, cleaning steps, white erasers!). Again, thank you all - and I will update after I get the response from Eastwind! |
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Post by rockjunquie on May 1, 2021 8:58:00 GMT -5
II hope they hook you up because it sounds like a classic case of contamination... somehow. Sounds like the issue was on their end. Sorry you had to go through so much trouble, but like you said- you learned something so it's not all bad. |
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Post by hummingbirdstones on May 1, 2021 9:15:26 GMT -5
Well hell's bells. 
One last thing to try: Get a pen knife or something similar and very carefully and lightly hold it over the disc while it's spinning on the slowest speed. If there is anything caught in it, you should be able to hear it click slightly when the blade runs over it. Hopefully the blade will pull it out. Vince has also used this method in the past to remove contamination.
If that doesn't work, then I'm out of ideas. I'd call Eastwind back and tell them they're defective and ask them to replace them.
One more question: Is it just the 8000 that is doing this? If so, go directly from the 3000 to the 14000 and see what happens. I would really like to see a picture of the scratches on a stone the 8000 is making.
I'm so sorry you are going through this crap, Jason.
ETA: I didn't see your last post until after I posted this, but you can still try it if you want. (no coffee!)
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Post by jasoninsd on May 1, 2021 9:52:09 GMT -5
II hope they hook you up because it sounds like a classic case of contamination... somehow. Sounds like the issue was on their end. Sorry you had to go through so much trouble, but like you said- you learned something so it's not all bad. Thanks Tela! Everything happens for a reason...both good and what we perceive as "bad".  Well hell's bells.
One last thing to try: Get a pen knife or something similar and very carefully and lightly hold it over the disc while it's spinning on the slowest speed. If there is anything caught in it, you should be able to hear it click slightly when the blade runs over it. Hopefully the blade will pull it out. Vince has also used this method in the past to remove contamination.
If that doesn't work, then I'm out of ideas. I'd call Eastwind back and tell them they're defective and ask them to replace them.
One more question: Is it just the 8000 that is doing this? If so, go directly from the 3000 to the 14000 and see what happens. I would really like to see a picture of the scratches on a stone the 8000 is making.
I'm so sorry you are going through this crap, Jason.
ETA: I didn't see your last post until after I posted this, but you can still try it if you want. (no coffee!)
Thanks Robin! That's definitely a trick I'm glad you told me about. I'm going to hold off doing anything else to these disks until I find out what Eastwind is going to do. I have gotten the scratches with the 14,000 - however, I haven't used that one as much as the 8000 because I'd see the scratches right away with the 8000 and wouldn't proceed any further. I was going to take pics yesterday when this happened again, but I was to the point of really being disappointed with all the cleaning and erasing not working, that I put the cab right back on the 500 disk to remove the scratches and called it quits for the day. If I get a chance later today, I might put it back on the 8000 just to scratch it up again and take pics...but no promises...I hate the whole one step forward and three steps back kind of thing! LOL Mmmmm...coffee!!! (Make that sound like Homer saying donuts! LOL) |
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Post by hummingbirdstones on May 1, 2021 10:02:07 GMT -5
II hope they hook you up because it sounds like a classic case of contamination... somehow. Sounds like the issue was on their end. Sorry you had to go through so much trouble, but like you said- you learned something so it's not all bad. Thanks Tela! Everything happens for a reason...both good and what we perceive as "bad". Well hell's bells.
One last thing to try: Get a pen knife or something similar and very carefully and lightly hold it over the disc while it's spinning on the slowest speed. If there is anything caught in it, you should be able to hear it click slightly when the blade runs over it. Hopefully the blade will pull it out. Vince has also used this method in the past to remove contamination.
If that doesn't work, then I'm out of ideas. I'd call Eastwind back and tell them they're defective and ask them to replace them.
One more question: Is it just the 8000 that is doing this? If so, go directly from the 3000 to the 14000 and see what happens. I would really like to see a picture of the scratches on a stone the 8000 is making.
I'm so sorry you are going through this crap, Jason.
ETA: I didn't see your last post until after I posted this, but you can still try it if you want. (no coffee!)
Thanks Robin! That's definitely a trick I'm glad you told me about. I'm going to hold off doing anything else to these disks until I find out what Eastwind is going to do. I have gotten the scratches with the 14,000 - however, I haven't used that one as much as the 8000 because I'd see the scratches right away with the 8000 and wouldn't proceed any further. I was going to take pics yesterday when this happened again, but I was to the point of really being disappointed with all the cleaning and erasing not working, that I put the cab right back on the 500 disk to remove the scratches and called it quits for the day. If I get a chance later today, I might put it back on the 8000 just to scratch it up again and take pics...but no promises...I hate the whole one step forward and three steps back kind of thing! LOL Mmmmm...coffee!!! (Make that sound like Homer saying donuts! LOL) No worries, Jason. Don't scratch it up again for me and make more work for you!  |
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Post by jasoninsd on May 1, 2021 10:08:29 GMT -5
Thanks Tela! Everything happens for a reason...both good and what we perceive as "bad". Thanks Robin! That's definitely a trick I'm glad you told me about. I'm going to hold off doing anything else to these disks until I find out what Eastwind is going to do. I have gotten the scratches with the 14,000 - however, I haven't used that one as much as the 8000 because I'd see the scratches right away with the 8000 and wouldn't proceed any further. I was going to take pics yesterday when this happened again, but I was to the point of really being disappointed with all the cleaning and erasing not working, that I put the cab right back on the 500 disk to remove the scratches and called it quits for the day. If I get a chance later today, I might put it back on the 8000 just to scratch it up again and take pics...but no promises...I hate the whole one step forward and three steps back kind of thing! LOL Mmmmm...coffee!!! (Make that sound like Homer saying donuts! LOL) No worries, Jason. Don't scratch it up again for me and make more work for you!  Okay, thank god! I would have if you had said you really needed to see it...but I wouldn't have done it with any love! LOL  |
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Post by jasoninsd on May 1, 2021 10:15:03 GMT -5
Your smoothing discs were new also? How many cabs did you break in the discs with? How many cabs do you get from a disc before it’s worn out? I got the smoothing disks in November when I first started making cabs. I had no idea the "life expectancy" of disks, so I just got the back-up disks at the same time. The original disks are nowhere near getting worn out...heck, they're probably barely getting broken in at this point. LOL I don't have an exact count anymore, but I probably have only made a little over 100 cabs at this point... |
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Post by hummingbirdstones2 on May 1, 2021 10:24:43 GMT -5
jasoninsd - I'm gonna' PM you my phone number. Not only for this, but also for future scrapyard engineering projects... .
EASTWIND LAPS - I've used them for about 15 years now, and like them much better than other types for the materials I cut.
That said, about 3 months ago I had a problem just like this. It was during the time I was cutting the large black Lightning Ridge opal in the following thread:
As you can see in the final photos of that opal, I was able to fix my scratching problem - that opal was finished on the Eastwinds. Seems like Jason's laps have something different going on with them. Pretty sure I carried some contaminants onto mine by not wiping a cab after the previous steps.
Mine showed single scratches (multiplied by the number of revolutions turned) after running a polished test cab on the lap at a relatively slow speed. That told me I probably carried a chunk of something onto the lap and contaminated it that way.
It's really good that Eastwind is standing behind their laps, even if you did have to be "persistent" to get it done. I've worn out a number of them over the years, and have been making a list of grits so I can order more replacements now. I'd be really bummed if I couldn't buy Eastwinds.
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Post by hummingbirdstones2 on May 1, 2021 10:28:33 GMT -5
Forgot to mention this - I'm sure it's been said by other people in many posts.
Some materials just don't "like" a particular grit. It's okay to skip the 8K or the 14K to test that out if a cab is showing scratches.
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Post by jasoninsd on May 1, 2021 10:36:16 GMT -5
I got the smoothing disks in November when I first started making cabs. I had no idea the "life expectancy" of disks, so I just got the back-up disks at the same time. The original disks are nowhere near getting worn out...heck, they're probably barely getting broken in at this point. LOL I don't have an exact count anymore, but I probably have only made a little over 100 cabs at this point... How many cabs did you try to break in the new discs 8 and 14k? I didn't try to break it in with too many cabs...I got too irritated with the scratches. However, I originally ran a Brazilian agate and a Blackskin agate over the surfaces to try and break them in. When that didn't work, I finally got a dressing stick and ran that over the surface, dressing it per the instructions that came with the stick... jasoninsd - I'm gonna' PM you my phone number. Not only for this, but also for future scrapyard engineering projects... .
EASTWIND LAPS - I've used them for about 15 years now, and like them much better than other types for the materials I cut.
That said, about 3 months ago I had a problem just like this. It was during the time I was cutting the large black Lightning Ridge opal in the following thread:
As you can see in the final photos of that opal, I was able to fix my scratching problem - that opal was finished on the Eastwinds. Seems like Jason's laps have something different going on with them. Pretty sure I carried some contaminants onto mine by not wiping a cab after the previous steps.
Mine showed single scratches (multiplied by the number of revolutions turned) after running a polished test cab on the lap at a relatively slow speed. That told me I probably carried a chunk of something onto the lap and contaminated it that way.
It's really good that Eastwind is standing behind their laps, even if you did have to be "persistent" to get it done. I've worn out a number of them over the years, and have been making a list of grits so I can order more replacements now. I'd be really bummed if I couldn't buy Eastwinds.
Thanks Vince! I almost PM'd you only about all this, but figured it would be a good thread topic...so I went the "public" route. I'm glad I did as there's been a ton of great participation. Like I said, I don't want anyone to take an ill-stance toward Eastwind...and I know you'd be very careful not to do that unnecessarily. I belive they're going to stand behind these and then it will be a happy ending to all this. Because I'm relatively new at this, I was reluctant to think it was the disks and not just something I was doing wrong. However, I just can't wrap my head around anything I could be doing wrong...and to me at least, it makes sense that the disks are contaminated with a clumped diamond that I can't seem to find or get rid of... |
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