saxplayer
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since March 2018
Posts: 1,327
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Post by saxplayer on May 26, 2021 22:09:50 GMT -5
I'll start by saying I really admire the ingenuity that is going into this. I have a mini-sonic as well as a few lot-o's and the thing I dislike the most about the mini-sonic is the variable speed and the thing I like the most about the lot-o is its ability to polish everything I throw at it without any tinkering. Maybe I got lucky with all of mine and maybe there are issues on some being produced right now? I think if you go back and look at the last eight years every winner of the world rock tumbling contest has used an unmodified lot-o. In my opinion variable speed just adds an endless amount of options of how to run each type of rock and each stage of the batch. Way too much work for me. The only adjustment I make is one time a day with a few squirts of water. My main lot-o has been running 12 years non stop and my recipe has not changed at all in the last 8-10 years. I think your design is great for a lot-o that needs adjusted but I would certainly hope you could get it to a final sweet spot that produces great repeatable results without needing to tinker anymore. Chuck I agree with your general statement Chuck. I am curious to see if I tinker with mine slightly to increase it's action - and leave it alone forever - if it improves the action enough to prevent slowing and chipping/spalling that I think comes from them chattering. I am extremely vigilant with watching action / spritzing with water etc. You've been an invaluble source of information and advice along with Randy here over my 3 or so years into this hobby and I couldn't appreciate your tips more! I'm jealous of your lot-o - hoping to get mine tinkered to work as well - or should I say as consistently.
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Post by Rockindad on May 27, 2021 9:12:43 GMT -5
I think the key will be to find the sweet spot, but still not make it too rough to cause bruising / spalling. That has been an issue for me as well and another reason I got the mini-sonic. I have run 2 batches through the mini-sonic now without hardly any spalling/dmg. My lot-o seems to always take my perfect rocks and make a small amount of them imperfect - despite making a fantastic shine. So far I have had no bruising or spalling with my lot-o. Just some caking on the bottom of the barrel in the 220 stage. Instead of a “caking”, I would classify what we had as more of a concretion on the bottom third of the barrel. Theory is that there was not enough vibration to circulate the load but enough to settle out the moisture and grit. Cleaning out these messes was a pain and some of the glass that got trapped was broken- subject to a lighter amount of vibration, but trapped in a relatively solid mass.
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irlcjrohr
starting to spend too much on rocks
If it does not melt, polish it.
Member since April 2020
Posts: 123
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Post by irlcjrohr on May 27, 2021 9:57:29 GMT -5
So far I have had no bruising or spalling with my lot-o. Just some caking on the bottom of the barrel in the 220 stage. Instead of a “caking”, I would classify what we had as more of a concretion on the bottom third of the barrel. Theory is that there was not enough vibration to circulate the load but enough to settle out the moisture and grit. Cleaning out these messes was a pain and some of the glass that got trapped was broken- subject to a lighter amount of vibration, but trapped in a relatively solid mass. Yes, concretion is a better disctiption of what I am seeing. Thank you.
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irlcjrohr
starting to spend too much on rocks
If it does not melt, polish it.
Member since April 2020
Posts: 123
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Post by irlcjrohr on May 27, 2021 10:02:04 GMT -5
So far I have had no bruising or spalling with my lot-o. Just some caking on the bottom of the barrel in the 220 stage. I'm jealous then! I spend an incredible amount of time on my tumbles in prep work, flaw removal etc. Almost any photo (albeit to say, of my recent most 20 or so tumbles - not my originals) of my finished tumbles that have any flaws, are courtesy of my lot-o. I can't beat the shine, but I can't elimiate spalls and chipping. It doesn't matter the mix, size variation or amount of ceramics or small perfectly round LSAs that I use to fill - it still happens. I think it is because of the poor tuning as delineated in this thread. I know what I'm doing - and I have talked to the other master tumblers here as well over the past years - and no matter if I copy their recipies identically - I continue to get problem rocks. I'm going to modify my lot-o and see what happens. I know it's the lot-o because I can get 90% of the shine with my mini-sonic despite not using it more than 3 loads now - and I have had ZERO flaws, chips or spalls. From what Rockindad posted and responding to my questions, I think my lot-o is set to be less aggressive in the tumble. That is causing other issues of concretions on the bottom of the barrel in the first stages.
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Post by Rockindad on May 27, 2021 10:48:06 GMT -5
I'll start by saying I really admire the ingenuity that is going into this. I have a mini-sonic as well as a few lot-o's and the thing I dislike the most about the mini-sonic is the variable speed and the thing I like the most about the lot-o is its ability to polish everything I throw at it without any tinkering. Maybe I got lucky with all of mine and maybe there are issues on some being produced right now? I think if you go back and look at the last eight years every winner of the world rock tumbling contest has used an unmodified lot-o. In my opinion variable speed just adds an endless amount of options of how to run each type of rock and each stage of the batch. Way too much work for me. The only adjustment I make is one time a day with a few squirts of water. My main lot-o has been running 12 years non stop and my recipe has not changed at all in the last 8-10 years. I think your design is great for a lot-o that needs adjusted but I would certainly hope you could get it to a final sweet spot that produces great repeatable results without needing to tinker anymore. Chuck Thanks for the input Chuck, different opinions welcome for sure. Honestly this was borne out of necessity, not a desire to modify a brand new product. Thought we would have had a couple of finished batches by now. The difference in how it is running now is huge. We spent over a week trying to figure it out without tinkering with the machine itself, figuring it must be something we were doing. I’ve always taken to heart: “A poor craftsman blames his tools” so really look at my own skills/methods first. Interesting take on the mini-sonic as the variable speed is the second thing that intrigues me about that machine (the first being how it works in general- no motor, weights, etc.). I have given thought about the variable feature as in “where does it end?” Seems like it could be too much of a good thing. As we have no desire to have to adjust the Lot-O for every stage or material it would be great to find a single spot that would work for every material and stage. Maybe we already had it before we moved it slightly when starting the 500AO? Anything more than moving the dowel a bit for polish or a softer matter would be considered a burden for us. A couple of weeks ago I asked A.J. What his favorite part of the hobby was. Unsurprisingly he said he liked the final clean outs and seeing the end product for the first time. We then had a discussion about how much work goes into getting to that point. Told him to always be on the lookout for how to streamline the work that has to be done, in essence how can we maximize the fun stuff and minimize the not so fun stuff while still getting the results we desire.
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pizzano
Cave Dweller
Member since February 2018
Posts: 1,390
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Post by pizzano on May 27, 2021 13:18:03 GMT -5
The following Thread, served a few folks with tuning issues, very well.....: forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/88524/lot-polish-stage-issueThanks to jugglerguy for digging it up........! Also, if memory serves, there seemed to be like/similar issues with the Lot-O during production run periods from about late 2017 thru early 2020, maybe beyond. Apparently, not only was the quality of the manufacturing (QA/QC) workmanship suspect, but the quality of the materials being applied (motors/springs/plastics) seemed to be less stout/reliable/rigid and electrical components seemed to be fragile.......guess that can be expected when mass production to keep up with demand is sourced out to overseas parties without regard for historical reputation and quality attributes........all the while, the price new for that particular machine started rising (retail) anywhere from $50.00 to almost $200.00...... back, prior to 2017 one could by new for $169.00 on sale at many Lapidary outlets........I believe, even The Rock Shed had them priced under $200.00.......not always a positive case for the proverbial "you get what you pay for"........not at least in this case...!
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ericabelle
spending too much on rocks
Instagram acct: @erica_shoots_everything
Member since April 2021
Posts: 482
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Post by ericabelle on May 27, 2021 14:47:33 GMT -5
Rockindad , this is brilliant - I hope it works out for you. I had just posted in your other thread that they should really make this machine more adjustment-friendly; then I popped over here and saw your new thread. You are way ahead of me!
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ericabelle
spending too much on rocks
Instagram acct: @erica_shoots_everything
Member since April 2021
Posts: 482
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Post by ericabelle on May 27, 2021 15:22:53 GMT -5
I've read several reports of rocks getting dings and dents in the Lot-O; so I guess it's not my imagination after all that some of my rocks have new imperfections. Has anyone tried adding Metamucil (psyllium fiber)? Would that help?
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Post by Rockindad on May 27, 2021 16:59:55 GMT -5
The following Thread, served a few folks with tuning issues, very well.....: forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/88524/lot-polish-stage-issueThanks to jugglerguy for digging it up........! Also, if memory serves, there seemed to be like/similar issues with the Lot-O during production run periods from about late 2017 thru early 2020, maybe beyond. Apparently, not only was the quality of the manufacturing (QA/QC) workmanship suspect, but the quality of the materials being applied (motors/springs/plastics) seemed to be less stout/reliable/rigid and electrical components seemed to be fragile.......guess that can be expected when mass production to keep up with demand is sourced out to overseas parties without regard for historical reputation and quality attributes........all the while, the price new for that particular machine started rising (retail) anywhere from $50.00 to almost $200.00...... back, prior to 2017 one could by new for $169.00 on sale at many Lapidary outlets........I believe, even The Rock Shed had them priced under $200.00.......not always a positive case for the proverbial "you get what you pay for"........not at least in this case...! Just posted a long-winded response to Rob in the other thread so I won't repeat it here. I am supposed to be getting a call from Tom Calway (Inventor/Producer of the Lot-O) early next week and am hoping to have a respectful and open conversation with him. I mentioned the conversation I had with the lady at Belt Inc./Lot-O today, while it was polite on both ends it was clear she had plenty of canned answers and my call was not unique.
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Post by Rockindad on May 27, 2021 17:14:48 GMT -5
I've read several reports of rocks getting dings and dents in the Lot-O; so I guess it's not my imagination after all that some of my rocks have new imperfections. Has anyone tried adding Metamucil (psyllium fiber)? Would that help? I'll just say that if some of the machines are tuned to be too passive, then having some that are too aggressive certainly seems possible. Have used psyllium in the UV-10 and can't say I am convinced it is better than anything else. Don't get me wrong, it definitely thickens things up (use sparingly) but it takes a while to develop. Sugar, borax, liquid soap, etc. seem to develop much faster and if you are looking for protection the sooner the better.
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Post by Rockindad on May 29, 2021 15:11:28 GMT -5
Moved into polish today after 4 days in 500AO- was still running well, only spritzed with water a couple of times. Moved the dowel back towards the motor another 1/8" =/-. Have definitely found an acceptable range, will try to find the optimal (hopefully single) location for the dowel in the next week.
Going to start over with a batch in 120/220SiC in a few days. Will post a couple of videos to show the difference between the factory position and when the dowel is moved.
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ericabelle
spending too much on rocks
Instagram acct: @erica_shoots_everything
Member since April 2021
Posts: 482
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Post by ericabelle on May 29, 2021 18:54:05 GMT -5
Moved into polish today after 4 days in 500AO- was still running well, only spritzed with water a couple of times. Moved the dowel back towards the motor another 1/8" =/-. Have definitely found an acceptable range, will try to find the optimal (hopefully single) location for the dowel in the next week. Going to start over with a batch in 120/220SiC in a few days. Will post a couple of videos to show the difference between the factory position and when the dowel is moved. Glad your invention is working out! I've had my (second) batch in 500AO for two days now, and I've had to spritz it several times. The rocks were still moving, but slower, and they looked a bit "sticky" so that is why I have sprayed them several times over the past couple days. What do you think that means? They are moving too aggressively? I do have three small rocks that I think are granite, so maybe they are grinding down a bit? I also wanted to ask you how you tumble your glass in the vibe - do you start with 500AO or just treat them like a normal mohs 7 rock? Thanks for the help!
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Post by Rockindad on May 30, 2021 8:29:29 GMT -5
Moved into polish today after 4 days in 500AO- was still running well, only spritzed with water a couple of times. Moved the dowel back towards the motor another 1/8" =/-. Have definitely found an acceptable range, will try to find the optimal (hopefully single) location for the dowel in the next week. Going to start over with a batch in 120/220SiC in a few days. Will post a couple of videos to show the difference between the factory position and when the dowel is moved. Glad your invention is working out! I've had my (second) batch in 500AO for two days now, and I've had to spritz it several times. The rocks were still moving, but slower, and they looked a bit "sticky" so that is why I have sprayed them several times over the past couple days. What do you think that means? They are moving too aggressively? I do have three small rocks that I think are granite, so maybe they are grinding down a bit? Having to spritz once in a while is not a bad thing, better than trying to remove water. If you added borax (or similar), it will continue to thicken a bit over the run and you may have to add some moisture. At 500 you are still removing a small amount of material, so that will thicken the slurry as well, the softer parts of the granite are likely part of the equation as well.I also wanted to ask you how you tumble your glass in the vibe - do you start with 500AO or just treat them like a normal mohs 7 rock? Thanks for the help! Glass gets shaped in rotary first. In the vibe we still run it in 120/220 or 500SiC to make sure any leftover surface scratches from rotary are removed. Then 500AO and AO polish. Occasionally we will add a 1000AO stage if the results after the 500AO are not good enough. The biggest difference between running glass and more durable materials is the slurry. We have experimented with borax, sugar, many soaps, psyllium...............all have their merits and drawbacks. Note that this has all been done in a Thumler's UV-10 which is a much more aggressive machine than the Lot-O. Actually our first "real" batch in the Lot-O is going to be glass that will be started in a few days. Due to the gentler nature of the Lot-O I am anticipating a lesser need for a thick and cushiony slurry.
To really explore glass look up the many threads by @jamep. He has combined art and science to create some amazing results.
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pizzano
Cave Dweller
Member since February 2018
Posts: 1,390
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Post by pizzano on May 30, 2021 12:51:47 GMT -5
"Thumler's UV-10 which is a much more aggressive machine than the Lot-O".
I believe if one took a survey of both experienced Lot-O and bowl type vibe tumblers, comparing APPLES to APPLES............this exercise has been performed in the past by quite a few here, to include myself......with various brands, sizes, and length of service of bowl type vibes and Lot-O's.......under very controlled and monitored environments....!
Exact same.....:
Type of material to be tumbled Capacity, (proven max efficiency) of device (say 4.5 to 5lbs or at least 3/4 full) like a single barrel Lot-O.......single barrel capacity cannot not be compared to a UV-10 Size and shapes of stone material to be tumbled Type, size and shapes of media (ceramic, pea gravel, plastic beads, ect. Type, brand and size of grinding/polishing compounds used at each stage (adjusted amounts due to the slurry development being different for each machine) Amount of liquid (water) required to establish and maintain a good slurry (adjusted amounts due to the slurry development being different for each machine) Type and amount of additives (soaps, cleaners, sugar), adjusted amounts as per need being different for each machine
What the majority of us, who have performed this comparison, have come to experience, the following...........The Lot-O is a much more aggressive and efficient machine at all stages of the tumbling process........due to these factors....given an adequately tuned Lot-O.....:
Time.......every stage of the process takes less time to achieve (for even the most picky), great results. Depending on ones experience level, no more than three stages of the complete process can become routine. Consumption.......every stage of the process requires less media, grinding/polishing compounds, liquid (water) and solvents. Baby-Sitting.......bowl vibes need constant attention, just the nature of that process. Less after stage material cleaning/scrubbing compound removal......at every stage. Material size deviations are less critical in a bowl vibe......the Lot-O prefers continuity. Cost......even though today this has changed some, Lot-O's have always been more expensive than bowl vibes. Lot-O's (historically) have been more reliable/predictable and about the same maintenance management as bowl vibes. Bowl vibes can achieve the same level of perfection as the Lot-O......just takes more time, experience, material and patience.....a far cry from that compared to rotary.
Conclusion....based on many knowledgeable opinions and experiences here at RTH and local clubs.....:
If one arrives at more than a casual desire to tumble process stones to the utmost of that stones ability to shine......the Lot-O is the machine of choice.....thus it's reason for demand, out-of-stock and expense....!
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Post by Rockindad on May 30, 2021 21:15:18 GMT -5
There are a few things in this post that I disagree with. My observations are based on running a Thumler's UV-10 and a single Lot-O side by side within inches of each other, not watching videos, seeing a friends for a bit, reading about it, etc. As far as other bowl-type vibes (Raytech, Tagit, Harbor Freight, Lyman, etc.) I would not comment on any others as I do not have any experience with them. I would not assume all bowl-type tumblers perform the same though. My comments in yellow.
"Thumler's UV-10 which is a much more aggressive machine than the Lot-O".I believe if one took a survey of both experienced Lot-O and bowl type vibe tumblers, comparing APPLES to APPLES............this exercise has been performed in the past by quite a few here, to include myself......with various brands, sizes, and length of service of bowl type vibes and Lot-O's.......under very controlled and monitored environments....! If you know of threads where these exercises have been performed by quite a few here please share. Only interested in threads where the user actually has and uses both machines, not supposition. I had planned to put together a thread comparing the UV-10 and the Lot-O, may not bother if it already exists. Most of what has come up in my searches are "which one should I choose?" threads where the responses are primarily from people who have one or the other. I know TheRock has both machines and has stated in the past that he preferred the UV-10 as he thought the Lot-O was more finicky. Not sure how often he comes around these parts anymore but he ran a lot of rock. After working with the Lot-O for a little while now I do not even know if an apples to apples comparison is possible. I suppose you would have to use the Lot-O as the baseline for the size/shapes of materials that are used, but that would seemingly be ignoring a strength of the UV-10- the ability to run larger/longer/irregular shaped pieces.Exact same.....: Type of material to be tumbled Capacity, (proven max efficiency) of device (say 4.5 to 5lbs or at least 3/4 full) like a single barrel Lot-O.......single barrel capacity cannot not be compared to a UV-10 Size and shapes of stone material to be tumbled Type, size and shapes of media (ceramic, pea gravel, plastic beads, ect. Type, brand and size of grinding/polishing compounds used at each stage (adjusted amounts due to the slurry development being different for each machine) Amount of liquid (water) required to establish and maintain a good slurry (adjusted amounts due to the slurry development being different for each machine) Type and amount of additives (soaps, cleaners, sugar), adjusted amounts as per need being different for each machine What the majority of us, who have performed this comparison, have come to experience, the following...........The Lot-O is a much more aggressive and efficient machine at all stages of the tumbling process........due to these factors....given an adequately tuned Lot-O.....: Again, talking about the UV-10, the Lot-O is not even close to the aggressiveness of it. With how our Lot-O is set up now it is very easy to move the tuning bar wherever you want it. At its setting for maximum vibrations in the barrel it is still relatively passive compared to the UV-10. By aggressiveness I am talking about speed of movement which equals increased abrasions-stone to stone, stone to barrel, stone to media, etc. Efficiency (as in grit breakdown) is a different quality and the Lot-O seems to have a lot of it. Curious that a machine so much less aggressive can be just as efficient, maybe more. I do not think the action in a Lot-O is so different than a rotary barrel- most of the action is end over end and the pieces rub against each other with a downward pressure.Time.......every stage of the process takes less time to achieve (for even the most picky), great results. Depending on ones experience level, no more than three stages of the complete process can become routine. Consumption.......every stage of the process requires less media, grinding/polishing compounds, liquid (water) and solvents. Baby-Sitting.......bowl vibes need constant attention, just the nature of that process. I would disagree with this completely. The UV-10 is largely set it and forget it. Even in the 120/220SiC stage we only check it once every twelve hours at most, usually once a day. Can get away with less in later stages. For a run to stop you really need to be way off base with your slurry, wet or dry. Less after stage material cleaning/scrubbing compound removal......at every stage. Material size deviations are less critical in a bowl vibe......the Lot-O prefers continuity. Cost......even though today this has changed some, Lot-O's have always been more expensive than bowl vibes. Only if you are going pound for pound. The Lot-O is cheaper than the UV-10 at The Rock Shed ($222.00 vs. $245.00) and Kingsley North ($239.95 vs. $299.00) if you can even get either one, both are in short supply.Lot-O's (historically) have been more reliable/predictable and about the same maintenance management as bowl vibes. Hmmm, I don't know about that. Not exactly a rarity to come across threads from people having issues with their Lot-O's. Not even talking about my own experience as I am only one person with one of each machine.Bowl vibes can achieve the same level of perfection as the Lot-O......just takes more time, experience, material and patience.....a far cry from that compared to rotary. Conclusion....based on many knowledgeable opinions and experiences here at RTH and local clubs.....: If one arrives at more than a casual desire to tumble process stones to the utmost of that stones ability to shine...... the Lot-O is the machine of choice.....thus it's reason for demand, out-of-stock and expense....! Depends what you want to do. We currently have a lot of material running in our rotaries that will probably not be of suitable size for the Lot-O. We have largely gotten away from using crushed rock and break down our own tumbling rough as we prefer larger finished stones. We will have to rethink/resize this a bit for the Lot-O or just run 1-3 per batch.
As for us a lot is to be determined on how we use the two machines. Some initial thoughts were to use the Lot-O more for pendants or softer materials, maybe we will split batches by size.
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ericabelle
spending too much on rocks
Instagram acct: @erica_shoots_everything
Member since April 2021
Posts: 482
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Post by ericabelle on May 31, 2021 12:44:51 GMT -5
Thanks for the info, Rockindad , I'll keep accumulating river glass; and eventually I'll get to try tumbling it! And that is very good to know that the Borax will keep getting thicker and thicker - I thought I was doing something wrong!
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Post by Rockindad on May 31, 2021 16:19:44 GMT -5
Successfully finished the polish stage on the test batch. Time to start running for real. Took the break in the action to move the Lot-O off of the workbench and mount it to the stack of concrete blocks we glued together yesterday. Also streamlined the design of the adjustable dowel system a bit. Note the location of the tuning bar compared to what it was set at (the blue line is from Lot-O) when we received it. It made a huge difference. For reference the all-thread is 3/8" diameter (the same as the dowel that was used). We are going to try using this location for the entire run of this batch.
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