LazerFlash
Cave Dweller 
The more they over-think the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the toilet.
Member since September 2021
Posts: 550
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Post by LazerFlash on Oct 13, 2021 21:38:17 GMT -5
I'm a little confused about using a cushioning material in stage 1. I've read several of the threads on the topic, (mostly started by trying to understand the difference between using plastic vs ceramic and when). I seem to see opinions on both sides of the coin. So, my question is do more of you folks use a filler in the first stage? Is it based upon material, like obsidian? Or, just general preference? Or, am I missing something altogether?
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Post by perkins17 on Oct 13, 2021 21:42:33 GMT -5
I'm a little confused about using a cushioning material in stage 1. I've read several of the threads on the topic, (mostly started by trying to understand the difference between using plastic vs ceramic and when). I seem to see opinions on both sides of the coin. So, my question is do more of you folks use a filler in the first stage? Is it based upon material, like obsidian? Or, just general preference? Or, am I missing something altogether?
I don't unless it is for obsidian. In my opinion, it seems wasteful to use filler in the first stage. It just grinds it down. Soft, easily fractured material MIGHT have the need for ceramics. I am not a professional and this is just how I do it. I don't really use ceramics in a vibratory because I don't lose material. Good luck and happy tumbling! 😃 |
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Post by knave on Oct 13, 2021 21:59:58 GMT -5
Important to have a mix of Small’s in with the rocks. IMO. So you have more points of contact. These Small’s don’t need to be ceramics. They can be tumble material.
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LazerFlash
Cave Dweller
The more they over-think the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the toilet.
Member since September 2021
Posts: 550
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Post by LazerFlash on Oct 13, 2021 22:11:55 GMT -5
Important to have a mix of Small’s in with the rocks. IMO. So you have more points of contact. These Small’s don’t need to be ceramics. They can be tumble material. |
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Post by knave on Oct 13, 2021 23:34:39 GMT -5
For rough really any gravel would work but softer stuff will muck it up faster. I mean you don’t have to have tiny stuff but more a mix of sizes from small grape on up.
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Post by knave on Oct 13, 2021 23:40:34 GMT -5
Remember the rotaries do not use a grinding action.
Every impact leaves a tiny ding in the rock. Bigger grit, bigger dent or chip.
With the right material, you can start with 60 grit and on last clean out, let it run an extra week or 2, and go right to prepolish. If it’s just a few large eggs in there, it’s not as efficient with the grinding, shaping, and also the grit won’t break down properly.
Keep your rejects and tiny pieces of quartz.
Ask on here for some tiny saw scraps. They will ship them to you for cost of shipping.
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Post by jasoninsd on Oct 13, 2021 23:53:57 GMT -5
I've used the gravel out of my driveway as "filler" for stage one in the rotary... If you don't have a gravel driveway...check your neighbors driveway!  |
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Post by Peruano on Oct 14, 2021 7:09:52 GMT -5
In my view and admitting to be a primarily vibe used, filler has several potential functions.
1. To increase the volume/weight to the necessary level.
2. To provide moving material of a variety of sizes to reach all surfaces.
3. To carry grit to all surfaces.
4. To disperse the grit from aggregating in one level where it is less effective.
It must be a be "not too big" and "not to small"; actually I like a mix of sizes (usually scrap from the trim saw, pretumbled quartz pieces and yes never plastic which floats and hence does a good job of not accomplishing No. 2, 3, and 4 above as well as potentially carrying grit from any previous usage.
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RedWingTumbler
having dreams about rocks
Member since April 2021
Posts: 65
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Post by RedWingTumbler on Oct 14, 2021 8:19:28 GMT -5
This is an excellent article for describing when & why to use ceramic media. rocktumbler.com/tips/using-the-right-tumbling-media/ When I have plenty of little pieces of the same type of rock that I'm tumbling, I will use those in the coarse stage. If I don't have any scrap rocks of the same hardness, I will use ceramics in coarse (preferably new ceramic pieces that haven't yet been tumbled). Ceramics are extremely durable, so they last through many tumbles, but they are also very light, so they are not a danger to more fragile rocks. They are also very hard & smooth, so they don't carry grit from one stage to the next, as long as you rinse them off. The linked article describes using a classifier sieve to add tumbled stones to your media bucket. While this has worked for me with Mohs 7 rocks, like agates & jasper, I don't recommend it for rocks that are prone to fracture, as fractured rocks can cause trouble down the line. When I'm tumbling softer rocks, like sodalite, or fragile rocks, like feldspar, I will make sure my barrel starts out with some ceramics (about 10%) in coarse. This will increase to almost 50% by the polish stage, as I really don't want those rocks hitting each other. |
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dirtybill
off to a rocking start
Member since August 2021
Posts: 13
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Post by dirtybill on Oct 14, 2021 11:38:47 GMT -5
I use them whenever I have rocks prone to fracture, amethyst being one. I also mix in pea gravel for volume. More solid rocks, such as agates and jasper's, just the pea gravel, and may start adding the ceramics in medium or fine, then shift to plastic pellets for polishing and burnish stages.
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ingawh
starting to spend too much on rocks
The rock wants to shine, I just help it get there
Member since February 2011
Posts: 194
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Post by ingawh on Oct 14, 2021 13:19:15 GMT -5
I think I'm the one who first posted about using "aquarium gravel," so I'll take a moment to elaborate. Both Petco and PetSmart generally carry a kind of naturally rounded, predominantly quartz/jasper gravel. I tend to presort, but you don't really have to, unless you are doing a soft stone like obsidian, then (at least after the first stage) I go for the best, rounded stuff, as shown in this photo of my "gravel" that has gone through a polish stage with obsidian. I almost always use this filler, even at stage one, and even on harder stones, because I seldom have enough smalls otherwise to balance the load, and I hate opening the barrel to a bunch of smashed-up rough. If you only have medium and smallish stones, it may not be necessary, but I often have at least one large rock, which helps to move the grinding process along more quickly. The filler maximizes the surface area of each stone coming in contact with the grit, while cushioning against heavy blows by the larger rocks. Hope that helps, and happy tumbling!  |
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Benathema
has rocks in the head
God chased me down and made sure I knew He was real June 20, 2022. I've been on a Divine Mission.
Member since November 2019
Posts: 703
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Post by Benathema on Oct 14, 2021 18:15:39 GMT -5
I'm kind of at a crossroads right now with the cost-benefit of my filler quartz. Free to me, in principle, since I found it on the ground. However, it needs to be shaped just like normal rough, and be sorted through.
I had made it a point this summer to bolster up my supply of filler for stage 2+, and I think I almost burned myself out doing it. My barrels had a big stone in them being shaped, and I was filling them exclusively with the quartz. So this takes time, electricity, grit, and space in the barrel, which all come with a fairly measurable overhead expense. I'm not entirely certain if it is actually cheaper than just buying bulk ceramics.
It depends where you start, though. If your quartz is already rounded and tough, this is easier. My 5gal bucket from CO contains everything from clear, smokey, milky, magnetite inclusions, and some just junky looking massive quartz. Some of it is tough as nails and will take a beating without blinking. Some of it likes to grenade and takes a few weeks of coarse to get past that. Some of these end up getting set aside because they're too nice to just be filler material.
Ideally I'd have a supply of cheap boring agates as filler. I had a failed polish run recently that really perplexed me. Same recipe, different day. I've become a bit suspicious of the quartz and how it can fragment out of the blue in later stages. I had to reset everything and opted to fill exclusively with ceramics to try to eliminate that variable. We'll see.
I'd rather any "filler" I use in coarse to be rocks that I'm actually interested in. The big stones can really do a number on them, but they can always be ran separately afterwards. Thickening agents in coarse could provide the cushioning you need, rather than special filler material.
2¢
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lapis60
having dreams about rocks
Member since July 2021
Posts: 65
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Post by lapis60 on Oct 14, 2021 19:19:49 GMT -5
I use ceramic filler in stage one instead of adding more rough. It seems to work better for me.I change out the ceramic filler in the polishing stage just to make sure of no contamination and also dedicate barrels just for polishing.
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tjs77tsa
off to a rocking start
Member since October 2021
Posts: 17
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Post by tjs77tsa on Oct 14, 2021 23:34:14 GMT -5
I have only been tumbling for about a month and a half so I'm far from knowledgeable but I went to the local home improvement store and bought a big bag of what they called river pebbles for under $3 and have been using them for filler as my rocks get smaller in the first stage they were reasonably smooth to start with and it seems to be working well.
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Post by HankRocks on Oct 15, 2021 3:21:00 GMT -5
I suppose it depends on what one considers "filler" . For me I always try and run normal batches with a mixture of different sizes. No exact ratio of sizes, just a blend that feels right. I also consider added slurry a filler as it increases grit distribution and thus the grinding in the first stage and smoothing/protection in the latter stages.
For Obsidian, crystal quartz, slabs and preforms, and Tiger Eye runs I always run Coarse with a bit more smalls than a normal, I want some cushioning to go along with the grinding. As these rocks advance to subsequent stages I add previously polished smalls to make up any volume loss. It's interesting to me that there is even a bit of volume loss in the 600 SiC stage. For polishing the batch is moving from a Model B rotary to a UV-18 and requires an additional 3 pounds of polished smalls. Have even taken to adding extra polish to the polish stage, maybe 13 or 14 tablespoons of Tin Oxide. Since I save and re-use polish it's not very expensive. That and I lucked into a lifetime supply of Tin Oxide(52 pounds).
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Post by fernwood on Oct 15, 2021 5:16:29 GMT -5
What I use, depends on what is being tumbled. I use cushioning materials for fracture prone rocks.
I have the following for different circumstances.
Well tumbled aquarium gravel.
Plastic pellets.
Ceramic media.
All of the above are stage specific, as in I only use them for stage 1.
Most of the time no cushioning is needed. For rocks like Jaspers, some agates and fossils.
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Post by knave on Oct 15, 2021 7:28:50 GMT -5
I suppose it depends on what one considers "filler" . For me I always try and run normal batches with a mixture of different sizes. No exact ratio of sizes, just a blend that feels right. I also consider added slurry a filler as it increases grit distribution and thus the grinding in the first stage and smoothing/protection in the latter stages. For Obsidian, crystal quartz, slabs and preforms, and Tiger Eye runs I always run Coarse with a bit more smalls than a normal, I want some cushioning to go along with the grinding. As these rocks advance to subsequent stages I add previously polished smalls to make up any volume loss. It's interesting to me that there is even a bit of volume loss in the 600 SiC stage. For polishing the batch is moving from a Model B rotary to a UV-18 and requires an additional 3 pounds of polished smalls. Have even taken to adding extra polish to the polish stage, maybe 13 or 14 tablespoons of Tin Oxide. Since I save and re-use polish it's not very expensive. That and I lucked into a lifetime supply of Tin Oxide(52 pounds). This is great. So many ways to make a rock shine. I’ve been using 1/4 teaspoon of polish in my Loto. |
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LazerFlash
Cave Dweller
The more they over-think the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the toilet.
Member since September 2021
Posts: 550
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Post by LazerFlash on Oct 17, 2021 13:49:30 GMT -5
My wife picked up these two bags on a recent shopping trip, before I had a chance to share the advice on this thread with her. I'm thinking of just returning the 5 pound bag of small aquarium gravel, but I'm wondering about perhaps using the white stones (from Dollar Tree) in a test Stage 1 tumble. Thoughts?
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ingawh
starting to spend too much on rocks
The rock wants to shine, I just help it get there
Member since February 2011
Posts: 194
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Post by ingawh on Oct 17, 2021 23:40:40 GMT -5
My wife picked up these two bags on a recent shopping trip, before I had a chance to share the advice on this thread with her. I'm thinking of just returning the 5 pound bag of small aquarium gravel, but I'm wondering about perhaps using the white stones (from Dollar Tree) in a test Stage 1 tumble. Thoughts?
The rough white aquarium gravel is probably best exchanged for the rounded kind I pictured above, if they have that. I'm guessing the dollar store stuff is a pretty soft stone, like maybe marble...? I've actually been curious to see what I could do with a bag of rocks like the larger ones in your photo. I've been able to get pretty shapes by tumbling marble chips (f that's what it is) but it's tricky to coax what I'd actually call a shine in a tumbler, as it's only a 3 mohs. If you just want it as filler at stage one, it might work, but if it is super soft, it could also just grind away and thicken up your slurry pretty fast. That's not always a bad thing, depending on what else you're working on. Soft stones like that in later stages, however, can dull the shine of the harder stones. Final thoughts: I'm all about experimenting. For the larger stuff from the dollar store, I say - For a buck, what the heck - give it a whirl and see what happens and report back. I might try it, depending on what you find out.  Best wishes! |
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Post by Starguy on Oct 18, 2021 8:39:46 GMT -5
I’ve got a bucket full of small Lake Superior Agates that I use as filler. They’re not all the greatest LSAs but sometimes they turn out cool looking. Like Evan knave said, the important thing is to have a mix of sizes. In the rotary. I don’t have a vibe so I can’t speak to that. |
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