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Post by Rockindad on Oct 30, 2021 18:04:20 GMT -5
A subject that has been brought up a number of times recently and in the past is the use of a coarser Aluminum Oxide vs. using a traditional recipe, particularly in a vibe. I have my opinions and have no interest in trying to convince anyone to change their methods but will share what we found. This has been talked about before and results with pictures have been shown using 80AO, 220AO, etc. but I am not aware of a thread where two different batches of the same material were directly compared. Over the the summer we decided to run a couple of batches of Obsidian in our Lot-O to compare two different methods. All of this material was shaped together using SiC in rotaries first. From there we pulled enough rocks for two separate batches. The first batch was run using only 80 grit Aluminum Oxide and Borax for four days in the Lot-O. At this point it was cleaned, nothing else. We do not burnish as we have seen no difference when trying it before. The second batch was done using what appears to be the most common (plus/minus) recipe that I have seen on the forum: 48 hours in 120/220 SiC 48 hours in 500 AO & Borax 48 hours in 1000AO & Borax The original plan was to polish each batch separately and then show the results here side by side. After getting both batches to this stage I thought it would be interesting to show them BEFORE polishing them. Then it hit me, why not have some fun with this!?! Lets have a contest. Tomorrow I will start a contest thread in the appropriate place (Link Below). I will post 12-15 photos of individual stones and you will have to decide what batch each stone belongs to. I'm thinking this would run for a week to let as many people get a crack at it as possible. At that point I will reveal the answers and everyone can judge for themselves. Prize for whoever gets the most correct will be a SFRB of whatever you prefer: slabs, tumbling material, combination of both, etc. Link to the Contest: forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/97004/spot-obsidian-contest-ways?page=1&scrollTo=1189398
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Post by knave on Oct 30, 2021 18:07:59 GMT -5
What media do you run with the obsidian? ETA is it the dark Aluminum Oxide?
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Post by Rockindad on Oct 30, 2021 18:26:58 GMT -5
What media do you run with the obsidian? ETA is it the dark Aluminum Oxide? The 80AO we have now is pure white. The 500 is very dark grey and the 1000 is light grey. Have also had brown in the past, all seems to work the same. The media we have now is a mixture of ceramics and aquarium gravel, it all got mixed up awhile back and have not had the will to sort it out. We used to use ceramics exclusively with nice results but had a hard time getting them for a little bit so we started using the gravel. Have done plenty of batches with only gravel as well, I see the same results as ceramics, thus no desire to separate them.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,555
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Post by jamesp on Oct 30, 2021 20:06:55 GMT -5
These rocks were done with only SiC 30 in the rotary and AO 22 in the vibe Rockindad. The AO 22 had to run just over a week though. Borax if memory serves. The media was small tumbles and pea gravel for the larger rocks. The AO 22 is sitting on an 1/4" lined index card to show it's size before being used. A surprise - at clean out the AO 22 had not spent but it was smaller and rounded. (look for AO 80 particles after a run) These are some of the highest polishes I ever accomplished. www.flickr.com/photos/67205364@N06/albums/72157681139306525/with/31889916965/1.5 pound agate from rockpickerforever Jean. Rio purple moss Military grade AO 22 on 1/4" ruled index card
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Post by Son Of Beach on Oct 30, 2021 20:11:50 GMT -5
These rocks were done with only SiC 30 in the rotary and AO 22 in the vibe Rockindad . The AO 22 had to run just over a week though. Borax if memory serves. The media was small tumbles and pea gravel for the larger rocks. The AO 22 is sitting on an 1/4" lined index card to show it's size before being used. A surprise - at clean out the AO 22 had not spent but it was smaller and rounded. (look for AO 80 particles after a run) These are some of the highest polishes I ever accomplished. www.flickr.com/photos/67205364@N06/albums/72157681139306525/with/31889916965/1.5 pound agate from rockpickerforever Jean. Rio purple moss Military grade AO 22 on 1/4" ruled index card Holy moly that shine
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Post by Rockindad on Nov 3, 2021 17:44:57 GMT -5
These rocks were done with only SiC 30 in the rotary and AO 22 in the vibe Rockindad . The AO 22 had to run just over a week though. Borax if memory serves. The media was small tumbles and pea gravel for the larger rocks. The AO 22 is sitting on an 1/4" lined index card to show it's size before being used. A surprise - at clean out the AO 22 had not spent but it was smaller and rounded. (look for AO 80 particles after a run) These are some of the highest polishes I ever accomplished. I looked back at our log for the obsidian and in reality it only ran for 3 1/2 days (started in the evening, cleaned out in the morning). We have since been letting batches run for 5 days and it has made a huge difference. Have not noticed any sizable particles left over, probably because we are already starting at 80. As a side note, as much as you like it in your custom hopper and I do in the Lot-O, I really didn’t like it in the polyethylene bowl of the UV-10. It scored the inside of the bowl badly and apparently the AO broke down rapid enough that it did not smooth the walls out. In all fairness the use of 80 grit goes against what the manufacturer recommends. Still considering getting a virgin bowl and using it for nothing but this experiment. It may just be a case where the rubber hopper of the Lot-O and the steel of your setup are superior for this application.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,555
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Post by jamesp on Nov 4, 2021 7:20:23 GMT -5
Your Lotto must be dialed in better than mine. I never could get it to run AO 80 with any pre-polishing or polishing success. AO 220 no problem. And the Lotto seems to give a higher polish on glass than the Sonic. I have heard other members say their Lotto does not perform well. Some will move the dowels to improve success. Suggesting that they may have different capabilities from machine to machine. Could be the abrasive or slurry differences, who knows...
The original cast aluminum Vibrasonic hopper is blue Urethane lined and will run SiC 30 without making blue particles. Manufacturer says SiC 80 is ok to run. Tough material. However I ran a batch with SiC impregnated super dense Zirconium ceramic media(density 6.9 as opposed to aluminum oxide ceramics at 3.8) and it ate into the Urethane in a hurry. Ha, Zirconium media is used to abrade hard metals and can bend delicate metal parts in industrial vibes. Density of ceramic media plays a big role in vibratory tumblers in industry. Zirconium is the heaviest. The steel hopper is just that - steel, and steel is slow to wear even though it is so soft but very tough. A fine line between toughness and hardness(ie super hard Monatana agate verses a rubber vibe liner), neither wears fast.
The AO 22 experiment solved many questions about aluminum oxide. It proved AO to be the ultimate finishing abrasive even with larger particles like A0 22 A0 46 and AO 22 run in a vibe/slurry adjusted for it. I acquired most of the different AO's, crazy ceramic media's and other abrasives because my neighbor was a salesman for Washington Mills. I traded rocks for his son to tumble for his abrasive samples for military and industrial use lol. Not to mention his broad experience in abrasive applications.
Rock on. Watching with enthusiasm.
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Post by Rockindad on Nov 4, 2021 18:40:51 GMT -5
Your Lotto must be dialed in better than mine. I never could get it to run AO 80 with any pre-polishing or polishing success. AO 220 no problem. And the Lotto seems to give a higher polish on glass than the Sonic. I have heard other members say their Lotto does not perform well. Some will move the dowels to improve success. Suggesting that they may have different capabilities from machine to machine. Could be the abrasive or slurry differences, who knows... The original cast aluminum Vibrasonic hopper is blue Urethane lined and will run SiC 30 without making blue particles. Manufacturer says SiC 80 is ok to run. Tough material. However I ran a batch with SiC impregnated super dense Zirconium ceramic media(density 6.9 as opposed to aluminum oxide ceramics at 3.8) and it ate into the Urethane in a hurry. Ha, Zirconium media is used to abrade hard metals and can bend delicate metal parts in industrial vibes. Density of ceramic media plays a big role in vibratory tumblers in industry. Zirconium is the heaviest. The steel hopper is just that - steel, and steel is slow to wear even though it is so soft but very tough. A fine line between toughness and hardness(ie super hard Monatana agate verses a rubber vibe liner), neither wears fast. The AO 22 experiment solved many questions about aluminum oxide. It proved AO to be the ultimate finishing abrasive even with larger particles like A0 22 A0 46 and AO 22 run in a vibe/slurry adjusted for it. I acquired most of the different AO's, crazy ceramic media's and other abrasives because my neighbor was a salesman for Washington Mills. I traded rocks for his son to tumble for his abrasive samples for military and industrial use lol. Not to mention his broad experience in abrasive applications. Rock on. Watching with enthusiasm. We did the dowel adjustment to death: forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/post/1166762/threadTurns out that was only half the issue. A lot of people seem to complain about their loads bogging down after 12-24 hours, particularly when using SiC. We ran into the same thing even after getting the action "perfect" by adjusting the dowel. I will have to post a more detailed thread about what I found but to keep it short: we now put an 1 1/2" block underneath the barrel which prevents it from sinking into the frame. This lets it cradle the barrel, not strangle it. Has made a big difference and it feels very dialed in at this point. Not sure why it was necessary as we don't have another Lot-O to compare it to. Slop in the sheet metal fabrication? This could result in a slightly larger cradle, allowing the barrel to settle into the frame to the point of being counterproductive. Our barrels also seem a bit different as they do not have the pronounced dimple that there are probably thousands of posts on the forum discussing how to fill. They may be lighter/heavier? Tried putting in a call to them during the summer and was told the owner would call back..............still waiting.
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Wooferhound
Cave Dweller
Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,432
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Post by Wooferhound on Nov 5, 2021 4:01:05 GMT -5
but I am not aware of a thread where two different batches of the same material were directly compared. I did this test in a QT66 Rotary . . .
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,555
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Post by jamesp on Nov 5, 2021 4:46:40 GMT -5
It is all about vibration Rockindad. It takes little changes to grossly change vibratory behavior. What you are saying about preventing the barrel from changing position can have drastic effects on the out put. No surprise. And trying to analyze the output is chasing wind unless one is a high powered vibratory analysis engineer. Rest assured the Lotto was well engineered but the manufacturer built it with budget materials and construction techniques. I think the linear springs are nothing more than banding straps. Nothing wrong with banding straps, they are near indestructible but they may vary in metallurgical specs. Congrats on your victory because my Lotto gets constipated in a quickness when running SiC 220 or thick sugar slurry.
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Post by Rockindad on Nov 5, 2021 16:39:01 GMT -5
It is all about vibration Rockindad . It takes little changes to grossly change vibratory behavior. What you are saying about preventing the barrel from changing position can have drastic effects on the out put. No surprise. And trying to analyze the output is chasing wind unless one is a high powered vibratory analysis engineer. Rest assured the Lotto was well engineered but the manufacturer built it with budget materials and construction techniques. I think the linear springs are nothing more than banding straps. Nothing wrong with banding straps, they are near indestructible but they may vary in metallurgical specs. Congrats on your victory because my Lotto gets constipated in a quickness when running SiC 220 or thick sugar slurry. 1. The springs definitely seem like banding straps. I'm going to have to go into the shop at work and find our banding setup and shear a bunch- lifetime supply. 2. So many variables in this particular design. I admit that so far we have spent a lot more time experimenting with the Lot-O than actually finishing batches. I lost A.J.'s interest when I ran the same batch through 120/220SiC 25-30 times trying to figure out the bogging down issue. Can't blame him but it became an obsession for me. 3. Even though our machine is probably tuned as well as it could be now it still does not like really thick or sticky slurries. A lot of soap can be added but that can retard the process by eliminating too much friction.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,555
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Post by jamesp on Nov 6, 2021 6:52:09 GMT -5
It is all about vibration Rockindad . It takes little changes to grossly change vibratory behavior. What you are saying about preventing the barrel from changing position can have drastic effects on the out put. No surprise. And trying to analyze the output is chasing wind unless one is a high powered vibratory analysis engineer. Rest assured the Lotto was well engineered but the manufacturer built it with budget materials and construction techniques. I think the linear springs are nothing more than banding straps. Nothing wrong with banding straps, they are near indestructible but they may vary in metallurgical specs. Congrats on your victory because my Lotto gets constipated in a quickness when running SiC 220 or thick sugar slurry. 1. The springs definitely seem like banding straps. I'm going to have to go into the shop at work and find our banding setup and shear a bunch- lifetime supply. 2. So many variables in this particular design. I admit that so far we have spent a lot more time experimenting with the Lot-O than actually finishing batches. I lost A.J.'s interest when I ran the same batch through 120/220SiC 25-30 times trying to figure out the bogging down issue. Can't blame him but it became an obsession for me. 3. Even though our machine is probably tuned as well as it could be now it still does not like really thick or sticky slurries. A lot of soap can be added but that can retard the process by eliminating too much friction. Some folks can be obsessive about experimenting. I too have that curse lol. It is a great curse. Pick you mission statement and drive forward ! The Lotto is a sophisticated vibe design unlike any vibe for lapidary or industrial apps. It's linkage path or 'kinematic movement' is fancy but real effective. Since I picked up a used Vibrasonic for a song I chose to use it for my experiment base. It is a solid built like a tank and has precision adjustable offset balance weights on a rotating shaft parallel to the perfectly cylindrical hopper. A really simple vibratory design. It has a flat top to easily attach a variety of store bought hoppers or home built hoppers. The lower the hopper 'cylinder' the shorter the vibration travel - like bouncing on the center of a diving board verses the end of the diving board. And the heavier the hopper the more numb or gentle the vibration. Both those factors created a gentler vibration for softer materials, in my case glass was the target. It was obvious, lowering the hopper closer to the offset weight shaft and adding weight to it shortened the vibration amplitude. The Vibrasonic can handle 8 to 50 pound hoppers by altering the offset weights. It easily handled the heavier hopper. If the offsets weight were set at maximum offset of 5(out of 1 to 5) with a smaller 8 pound hopper it would pulverize and bruise agates terribly. Anyway, that was my story and it did not take long to figure out what the solution was but performed lots of experiments to arrive at that conclusion. Someone needs to pursue the Lotto design built with higher quality materials. Perhaps a larger capacity hopper and an easily adjustable vibration system. The egg shaped hopper creates good mixing unlike an elongated cylinder hopper where heavy rocks can separate to one side and little rocks can travel to the other side. I solved that by shortening the length of the cylinder hopper and welding a divider in the center for better mixing. That was a great move. Link below was where I last left tumbling experiments. Check out adjustable 2500 to 7000rpm DC motor powered Lot-O in progress(abandoned for time being). Also a cheap hand held vibration measuring device, hard pink aluminum oxide, silica purified kaolin clay for possible polish slurry. Shortened Vibrasonic hopper with divider for better mixing and tumble polishing two large rocks at same time. www.flickr.com/photos/67205364@N06/sets/72157720122587427
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Post by Rockindad on Nov 6, 2021 17:07:33 GMT -5
1. The springs definitely seem like banding straps. I'm going to have to go into the shop at work and find our banding setup and shear a bunch- lifetime supply. 2. So many variables in this particular design. I admit that so far we have spent a lot more time experimenting with the Lot-O than actually finishing batches. I lost A.J.'s interest when I ran the same batch through 120/220SiC 25-30 times trying to figure out the bogging down issue. Can't blame him but it became an obsession for me. 3. Even though our machine is probably tuned as well as it could be now it still does not like really thick or sticky slurries. A lot of soap can be added but that can retard the process by eliminating too much friction. Some folks can be obsessive about experimenting. I too have that curse lol. It is a great curse. Pick you mission statement and drive forward ! The Lotto is a sophisticated vibe design unlike any vibe for lapidary or industrial apps. It's linkage path or 'kinematic movement' is fancy but real effective. Since I picked up a used Vibrasonic for a song I chose to use it for my experiment base. It is a solid built like a tank and has precision adjustable offset balance weights on a rotating shaft parallel to the perfectly cylindrical hopper. A really simple vibratory design. It has a flat top to easily attach a variety of store bought hoppers or home built hoppers. The lower the hopper 'cylinder' the shorter the vibration travel - like bouncing on the center of a diving board verses the end of the diving board. And the heavier the hopper the more numb or gentle the vibration. Both those factors created a gentler vibration for softer materials, in my case glass was the target. It was obvious, lowering the hopper closer to the offset weight shaft and adding weight to it shortened the vibration amplitude. The Vibrasonic can handle 8 to 50 pound hoppers by altering the offset weights. It easily handled the heavier hopper. If the offsets weight were set at maximum offset of 5(out of 1 to 5) with a smaller 8 pound hopper it would pulverize and bruise agates terribly. Anyway, that was my story and it did not take long to figure out what the solution was but performed lots of experiments to arrive at that conclusion. Someone needs to pursue the Lotto design built with higher quality materials. Perhaps a larger capacity hopper and an easily adjustable vibration system. The egg shaped hopper creates good mixing unlike an elongated cylinder hopper where heavy rocks can separate to one side and little rocks can travel to the other side. I solved that by shortening the length of the cylinder hopper and welding a divider in the center for better mixing. That was a great move. Link below was where I last left tumbling experiments. Check out adjustable 2500 to 7000rpm DC motor powered Lot-O in progress(abandoned for time being). Also a cheap hand held vibration measuring device, hard pink aluminum oxide, silica purified kaolin clay for possible polish slurry. Shortened Vibrasonic hopper with divider for better mixing and tumble polishing two large rocks at same time. www.flickr.com/photos/67205364@N06/sets/72157720122587427I've collected a couple of old treadmills for experimenting with- DC motor/speed control all in one. Was thinking about messing around with one of the vibes, maybe even using the parts to create a single rotary setup. So many ideas, so little time.............
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Wooferhound
Cave Dweller
Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,432
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Post by Wooferhound on Nov 6, 2021 23:07:41 GMT -5
Search YouTube for - Treadmill Tumbler - A treadmill has almost everything needed to make a DIY tumbler
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