Wooferhound
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Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,423
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Post by Wooferhound on Jan 11, 2022 7:21:39 GMT -5
Jamesp came up with the idea to use Bass Shakers (Butt Kickers) to make a Vibe Tumbler and Shake some Rocks It has been discussed a good bit now and the conversation can be found starting a few posts down on this page ... forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/92403/2900rpm-7500rpm-lot-hubs-arrived?page=6So Jamesp wants to make a Rock Tumbler using Woofers ... I must be involved with these experiments ! I have a LARGE number of speakers so I have dragged out an Odd 15 inch woofer to start my tests with. I've got 2 of these that I can sacrifice to the Rock Gods and the other one looks much better. They have a 2 inch Voice coil to attach a mount to and are rated about 125 watts each. The plan is to . . . -- cut out the paper Cone so it won't be so loud, also reducing air backpressure making it all more efficient. -- Glue an aluminum Mount to the voicecoil that I can bolt various Test Barrels to -- create a Spring system to keep the weight of the rocks and barrel from Bottoming Out the Voicecoil structure -- then the fun begins, making different barrels and mounting them different ways to get the rocks to tumble properly The simplest way to make a woofer vibrate is to attach a 6 to 12 volt AC transformer to the woofer, this will vibrate the system at a fixed 60 Hertz at a fixed amplitude depending on the voltage. The best way to Drive the system is to use a Function Generator (Oscillator) and an audio amplifier. This allows you to vary the: Frequency, Amplitude and Waveshape (sine, triangle, square, sawtooth) Jamesp had even suggested that tumbles could be made to Music as the input to the woofer, so you could tumble polish rocks to the Rolling Stones and it would all start to make since. I wonder if a Batch of quartz rocks would have a Value Added if they were tumbled to the music of Pink Floyd with a video showing the process?
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Post by fernwood on Jan 11, 2022 7:36:37 GMT -5
This sounds like a fun project.
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quartzilla
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Member since April 2020
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Post by quartzilla on Jan 11, 2022 8:02:43 GMT -5
I just put popcorn in the microwave!
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Post by hummingbirdstones on Jan 11, 2022 9:55:38 GMT -5
I'm so excited to see this experiment unfold!
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Post by Rockoonz on Jan 11, 2022 11:02:06 GMT -5
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
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Post by jamesp on Jan 11, 2022 11:20:03 GMT -5
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Brian
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since July 2020
Posts: 1,506
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Post by Brian on Jan 11, 2022 11:24:13 GMT -5
I’ve been reading the other thread with high expectations for something interesting to come of this experiment. I can’t wait to see what results you are able to get.
I’m curious as to what your guesses are for the type of movement you may get. Much of it will come down to the design of the bowl you decide to use, but I also wonder if something other than the traditional vibe tumbler movement may yield just as impressive results.
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Post by greig on Jan 11, 2022 12:05:20 GMT -5
"For those about to rock, we salut you." AC/DC
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victor1941
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since November 2011
Posts: 1,978
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Post by victor1941 on Jan 11, 2022 12:06:43 GMT -5
Pink Floyd would want Rose Quartz!
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Jan 11, 2022 12:14:37 GMT -5
I’ve been reading the other thread with high expectations for something interesting to come of this experiment. I can’t wait to see what results you are able to get. I’m curious as to what your guesses are for the type of movement you may get. Much of it will come down to the design of the bowl you decide to use, but I also wonder if something other than the traditional vibe tumbler movement may yield just as impressive results. The hopper will likely have to be a cylinder hopper(like a Vibrasonic) rather than a donut hopper Brain. The third type is a egg hopper like the Lot-O uses. It would be best to have a flat surface to mount for a flush mount. Some ideas Wooferhound to toss in the mix: 2 gallon poly tank storage gas container with opening cut and perhaps tilted in some fashion(hanging from a rope ??) Clark brand off road motorcycle tank with opening cut ? - I have one to donate if needed. TOUGH Plastic lawn mower gas tanks ? Small pump sprayer tanks ? Medium Mini-sonic hoppers(expensive for a prototype !) any other ideas ?
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Post by fernwood on Jan 11, 2022 12:37:46 GMT -5
Any songs by Queen would be appropriate.
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Post by oregon on Jan 11, 2022 13:10:26 GMT -5
if you don't want to worry about bowl design, I have a heavy duty plunger that I use in my lotto, drop in replacement with a slightly larger opening. hmmm, used to carry them at Home Depot, but I don't see it online any more.... www.plumbingsupply.com/professionalplungers.html But can't one of you just bolt a butt kicker right to the top flange of the lotto?
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Wooferhound
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Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,423
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Post by Wooferhound on Jan 12, 2022 0:44:33 GMT -5
I’ve been reading the other thread with high expectations for something interesting to come of this experiment. I can’t wait to see what results you are able to get. I’m curious as to what your guesses are for the type of movement you may get. Much of it will come down to the design of the bowl you decide to use, but I also wonder if something other than the traditional vibe tumbler movement may yield just as impressive results. My plan right now is to make a 3 pound barrel out of PVC pipe with an Endcap.
The Cap will have multiple attach points so I can see the differences caused by all the points.
Will be looking for whatever creates the most Vibration and Rolling Action.
I honestly don't know what to expect. I know that loudspeakers are actually very powerful, but will it vibrate a barrel and rocks weighing 4 or 5 pounds or more.
The immediate problem is Time. This week I am doing Stagehand for ... Shen Yun , 2 nights Drifters , Coasters and Platters Reba McEntire As well as the Space Museum 3 days this week
Expect results slowly but this is my next project.
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Post by jasoninsd on Jan 12, 2022 5:48:14 GMT -5
Wooferhound - This really is a pretty cool project...and I'm pretty curious to go along for the ride to see the results! Thanks for taking this on and taking the time to post the results! It sounds like you've got a busy week...and those are some amazing artists you're working with!
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Jan 12, 2022 8:21:53 GMT -5
if you don't want to worry about bowl design, I have a heavy duty plunger that I use in my lotto, drop in replacement with a slightly larger opening. hmmm, used to carry them at Home Depot, but I don't see it online any more.... www.plumbingsupply.com/professionalplungers.html But can't one of you just bolt a butt kicker right to the top flange of the lotto? This is some valuable collaborative information. Serious oregon ? And this plunger head works in a Lot-O ? Amazing. That might be the trick ! Is the handle wood or fiberglass ? Does the handle screw into the plunger head ? Is the inside of the plunger head smooth with no gussets or sharp corners molded into it to trap rocks ? Wooferhound, this is the best hopper idea I can imagine so far. Because I am stumped applying a linear vibration generator to a cylinder or rectangular shape. But that's just me. You may have this solved with your PVC pipe with end cap set up. Check out this chair post mounted buttkicker Wooferhound. Consider mounting speaker to handle of oregon's plunger like this buttkicker set up below. That way there would be no attachment screws drilled into the hopper.... The speaker could be mounted off to the side. A base could be made by drilling a hole in a 2 x 12 board to stick end of handle in hole for a support. Wood base set on a foam pad instead of PIA springs for vibration shock absorber. Unscrew hopper to do a cleanout. Or the plunger head mounted in a steel can and a pipe welded to the bottom of the can and welded to a steel base at bottom end of pipe. Then weld a plate perpendicular to pipe to mount speaker/buttkicker to. I tinkered with vibe hoppers Tim and had a difficult time coming up with a hopper design. I gave up and copied the Vibrasonic hopper but that was easy, the Vibrasonic has a parallel off-balance spinning shaft bolted to the bottom of a flat spring loaded table. Simply mount hopper to flat table and shift it a bit off center of table where the vibration was already being generated in an oval motion. Speakers and butt kickers are 100% linear vibration unlike motors with off-balance except Mini-sonics. That presents a new set of challenges in mounting the generator geometrically to transmit vibes to the hopper. Sharp corners create problems in most hoppers, can't have any dead spots. I believe the Mini-Sonic is solenoid motivated. Something like this Tim. This will likely be my first prototype. I'll weld the structure out of 3/4" water pipe for post, 1/8" plate for buttkicker side pipe mount and base, 5" or 6" thin wall pipe for plunger head container(scrap iron). If it works with a basic 60hz transformer here I will make you one if you want to try it out with your more advance signal generators and amps. Probably shorter and with a bigger base plate:
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Brian
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since July 2020
Posts: 1,506
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Post by Brian on Jan 12, 2022 9:57:44 GMT -5
Wooferhound, this is the best hopper idea I can imagine so far. Because I am stumped applying a linear vibration generator to a cylinder or rectangular shape. But that's just me. You may have this solved with your PVC pipe with end cap set up. This is where my brain has gotten stuck while thinking by about this endeavor. It seems to me that the shape of the hopper is going to be key in getting the right motion using the proposed vibration generator. The biggest difference I see between this proposal and vibe tumblers is the direction of the vibrations. An offset weight vibration generator produces a “messy” movement compared to a speaker. The spinning weight is pushing and pulling the hopper in two directions along a plane. It is moving up/down/in/out, which provides more circular motion to the hopper. The sound generator is going to be a “cleaner” movement along a single axis. It is going to either push in/out or up/down. That will cause the rocks to chatter against one another but not necessarily provide suitable movement for grinding or polishing. The above thoughts ignore the shape of the hopper and how that shape influences the movement. Surfaces that are not parallel or perpendicular to the linear driving force should help create additional movement. The rounded surface of the plunger may also help. I keep thinking that standing waves could be a problem even with an irregular hopper. One solution may be to add a second driver to add movement along a second axis. This could provide some interesting tuning opportunities by varying the waveform or amplitude of one driver while keeping the other constant. For example, a stronger generator on the bottom providing up/down movement with a weaker generator on the side to push things side to side may kickstart some good movement. Standing waves could also be broken up by applying a small secondary force out of sync with the primary generator. It may also be possible to avoid standing waves or add additional direction to the movement by using a floppy mount. Thinking of the lot-o, the springs are fairly rigid which keeps movement of the hopper more predictable. Looser springs would lose some of the intensity from the driver but allow for more varied/random movement of the hopper. Just some random, rambling thoughts… Edit: I got a little too wrapped up in my thoughts before reading to the end of your post jamesp. The offset mount may be enough to account for the linear action of the generator, but I wonder if it would be enough if the structure is too rigid. Without the elliptical motion of the offset weights, the major forces are still going to be along a single axis.
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
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Post by jamesp on Jan 12, 2022 10:49:18 GMT -5
Your thoughts describe the big problem of designing a successful vibe brian. There has to be 100% rolling/mixing action of the rocks to break down ALL abrasives. Being a welder I and can quickly alter the geometry. I will 'offset' the linear vibrator mounting base out and away from the center post until the leverage increases(or shorten to decrease) the needed amount of offset vibration forces(hopefully lol). Increase/decrease center post length or even offset the connecting point of the center post to the bottom of the hopper container. Or mount the center post to the side of the hopper container. Hell, ya got to start somewhere. PS quartz designed and built a vibe with a pivot point. I wish he would post that fine machine here. It is concise simple and easy to make adjustments to.
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Post by oregon on Jan 12, 2022 11:57:30 GMT -5
Serious oregon ? And this plunger head works in a Lot-O ? Amazing. That might be the trick ! Is the handle wood or fiberglass ? Does the handle screw into the plunger head ? Is the inside of the plunger head smooth with no gussets or sharp corners molded into it to trap rocks ? Yeah, mine is threaded, rubber as heavy duty as the lotto barrel or heavier. I picked this up new for a buck, but at the time home depot carried the same plunger. Not surprising if they no longer carry them, they were about triple the price of the cheapo plastic version. good smooth bowl. But besides bowl shape, I think you both are right to worry about constraining the vibe motion, or transforming a linear motion to a 'circular' rolling one. So my impression is that a counterweight on a rotating shaft produces a circular motion, The Vibrasonic hoppers are free to vibrate in a circular motion more so than the Lotto which is more constrained to be a rocking motion. Just grab them and try to move them by hand. The minisonics might be a better model, they start with a linear motion? must be a picture with the cover removed somewhere.
I can't think of any reason that 3000 rpm (50hz) would be the optimum tumbling frequency, so It'll be fun to see how this progresses.
Still, can't you do this as experiment 1...
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Jan 12, 2022 14:36:48 GMT -5
Serious oregon ? And this plunger head works in a Lot-O ? Amazing. That might be the trick ! Is the handle wood or fiberglass ? Does the handle screw into the plunger head ? Is the inside of the plunger head smooth with no gussets or sharp corners molded into it to trap rocks ? Yeah, mine is threaded, rubber as heavy duty as the lotto barrel or heavier. I picked this up new for a buck, but at the time home depot carried the same plunger. Not surprising if they no longer carry them, they were about triple the price of the cheapo plastic version. good smooth bowl. But besides bowl shape, I think you both are right to worry about constraining the vibe motion, or transforming a linear motion to a 'circular' rolling one. So my impression is that a counterweight on a rotating shaft produces a circular motion, The Vibrasonic hoppers are free to vibrate in a circular motion more so than the Lotto which is more constrained to be a rocking motion. Just grab them and try to move them by hand. The minisonics might be a better model, they start with a linear motion? must be a picture with the cover removed somewhere.
I can't think of any reason that 3000 rpm (50hz) would be the optimum tumbling frequency, so It'll be fun to see how this progresses.
Still, can't you do this as experiment 1... Well the plunger hopper killed it. That hit like a brick. Love it. Collaboration at it's finest and thanks for that input oregon. And the details. Between you me and the wall I don't much care for the Lot-O spring and pressboard mounting system. I have had 2 broken springs on mine. Other than that the Lot-O is great and it is a shame they don't come out with an 8 pound single unit with higher quality construction. Not certain but I believe the Mini-Sonic is a linear AC 60hz solenoid off set some how. I did mount Mini-Sonic tubs on a Vibrasonic and they worked great with the circular vibration motion. All the Vibrasonic, Mini-Sonic and my hand builts had a cylinder shape to the bottom section with a rectangular access opening on top. So the rock motion rotates in a perfect circle. Pretty much a 2 dimensions motion - circles of rotation. Mini-Sonic build on a Vibrasonic including a larger hand welded hopper for big rocks: www.flickr.com/photos/67205364@N06/albums/72157691385722155
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Post by oregon on Jan 12, 2022 23:02:43 GMT -5
here are the guts of a mini sonic, forgotten the whole thing was mounted on another set of springs, wonder what that does. But the linear motion is near the middle (the tension in the middle is adjusted to change the action (spring force as well as the electro magnet?) But flexible mounts on either end , so you can see how the rocking motion is achieved. I think those rubber mounts with bolts embedded in them are readily available. I know I changed some out on a chain saw last fall and they weren't that expensive.
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