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Post by Bob on Jul 11, 2022 16:42:14 GMT -5
I rotate with some 6lbs, 12lbs, 20lbs barrels and one 40lb barrel. Years ago, I found out the published teaspoon measurements of grit were pretty close, for those barrels, to 1/2 cup, 1 cup, 2 cups, and 4 cups, respectively. So that's what I've been doing and it works. It seems to result in a barrel needing recharging about once/week, and about 5-6 days in the heat of summer for the big barrel. And it's quick and easy as I just store a metal measuring cup in each grit container.
I've been doing the same thing with polishes. Most of my polish runs have been in the 6 and 12lb barrels with 1/2 and 1 cup of polish, respectively. I've done maybe 1, or 2, polish runs in the 20lb barrel with 2 cups. I'm about 2 months away from doing my first polish run in the 40lb barrel and had planned on using 4 cups, because of a rather large piece of chert or jasper.
So no matter the polish, that has so far been working okay. I also reuse my polish after decanting off the clear water and drying it and have noticed no deterioration in results. For the last 3-4 years, it was 90% alum ox, before that 90% cerium ox, that I used. The rest has been now and then uses of chromium and tin oxides.
The cer ox has a consistency of--thin pancake batter--and is slimy in the hand and so it in and of itself surely must cushion some. The alum ox is like skim milk but yet it works. I can't remember about chromium oxide because I've done so little of it. The the big comparison test being posted by me here in a separate thread is almost over, and tin ox seems to be doing so well it in, I've been experimenting with it more in various polish runs in the last couple of months.
It's weird stuff. It's super heavy, and although it may look at look like alum ox when you pick it up, there is no confusing the two because tin is so dang heavy. The watery mix of it seems even thinner to me than alum ox! It would say it looks like white water instead of thin milk. Surely there is zero cushioning of any kind from the polish slurry itself. So I use the plastic beads.
The shine produced by tin ox is sometimes kind of weird to me and I've struggled to find a way to explain what I mean by that. If all the rocks are plain jane tight and simple, no weird surfaces, like is the case with perfect jaspers and agates coming out of 1,000 SC, the tin ox shine is about as good as I've ever seen. But, if the rocks have non-perfect surfaces, then tin ox seems to shine the rocks in a way that almost emphasizes those imperfections. I'm not talking about pits or open cracks, but a varying surface. I've tried so hard to think of an analogy and maybe have thought of one.
If you bought a can of gloss spray lacquer, which makes a very thin layer compared to say, a brush on varnish in a can, then the rocks are going to be shiny on all their perfect surface regions, but that spray lacquer will not coat over any imperfect surfaces---you will be able to tell the difference in the regions on that rock. But, if you dipped a rock like that in the thick varnish, then it would probably make a total clear coat look, unlike the thin spray lacquer. Tin ox seems weird to me in the shine it produces in that way. Does anyone have similar experiences with tin ox? Maybe I'm saying it seems to be the the least forgiving polish for any surface variations on rocks.
Does anyone know if I say doubled the amount of tin oxide in the polish run, which would almost certainly make a bit of thicker slurry, if there would be any downsides such as less polishing action?
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Post by rmf on Jul 12, 2022 4:05:18 GMT -5
Bob Thanks for sharing your experimental data. Tin Oxide(SnO) is one of the best polishes since Lapidary SnO tends to be 99.9% Ultra High purity tin oxide. Over 85% particle size distribution 1 micron or less, and 58% is .37 micron. Cerium Oxide 85% purity, optically graded cerium, is excellent for polishing glass. Cerium Oxide 3.5 MICRON SIZE Cerium-R Oxide 1.2 MICRON SIZE Covington's Gold Label Polish #1 99% pure micro alumina polishing powder. Approximate size 2 - 3 microns Covington's Gold Label Polish #2 99% pure micro alumina polishing powder. Approximate size .5 microns Based on the micron sizes Cerium Oxide is around 8000 grit and Tin is around 100000 grit. Aluminum Oxide is literally any grit size you want you just have to ask. Tin is so expensive that most have quit tumbling with it but it is an excellent polish. Now you can find an Al2O3 polish of just about any mesh size you need, you just need to find what works. I don't know about too much polish since you are saving and reusing. I highly recommend but that takes time. that is why using Al2O3 polishes once and throw away is so popular. I would say any amount of polish that does not cause problems is OK if you can afford it. SnO can leave a film be sure to add a drop of soap to the polish.
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Post by HankRocks on Jul 12, 2022 6:46:17 GMT -5
Bob I have always used more polish than suggested. For me it serves as a slurry. Started doing this with AlO polish and have continued since my Tin Oxide windfall. I also save polish so expense has never been an issue. The only real polish loss I have is with the Vibe Lap, way too much trouble to reclaim that. Sorry but I don't measure the polish as I add it, for the UV-18 it's usually around 13 or 14 heaping spoonfuls. Would say that unless you start restricting the movement in the Barrel/Hopper you really cannot have too much polish. Henry
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Post by Bob on Jul 12, 2022 10:56:31 GMT -5
"...I don't know about too much polish since you are saving and reusing. I highly recommend but that takes time. that is why using Al2O3 polishes once and throw away is so popular. I would say any amount of polish that does not cause problems is OK if you can afford it. SnO can leave a film be sure to add a drop of soap to the polish." I realize a point you are implying might be that more polish could be better, but that the general idea is to use the least possible to do the job in order to decrease cost since everybody throws the polish slurry away. This raises another question which is does the amount of polish used affect the time needed to reach the desired shine? That would take experimentation. In any event, your comment plus some others help me to want to try using a bit more tin to increase the slurry thickness and see how it goes. A week ago, my contest rocks were done and for the first time I used tin. 1 week in first batch of polish, another week in second batch of polish used only for 2nd week, and then a day of burnish. The rocks were very shiny to be sure, but the overall surface wasn't as pretty as I'm used to. So I am running through all that one more time to see if makes any difference. When I used cerium in 2014-2017, I found that two 10 day runs were needed. That's one reason I switched to alum, because I could get the same results as cer in only two 1 week runs. Maybe tin needs more time like cerium does. Several people have asked me how I recycle the polish, which to them seems a royal pain but to me seems so easy. I will quickly explain. I open the barrel and pour out the floating plastic pellets and slurry through a strainer into a clean plastic container. The pellets are so easy to separate. I rinse the rocks still in the barrel 2, 3 or 4 times until water has so little polish in it not worth saving. For a 12lb barrel, this usually results in enough polish slurry rinse to almost fill two 1 gallon ice cream plastic tubs. I let them sit undisturbed. With cer, it takes overnight. With tin, just a few hours until settled down. Then I pour off clear water which works well if you tilt the container slowly and make no fast movement. Then I put them at an angle in a salad bowl or any bowl to tilt at 45 degrees. After more settling, decant off some more clear water the next day or two. Then into a clean, stainless steel oven pan that is about 12x18" or so, I pour the thick remaining slurry. I add a bit of water to container to swish around and get almost all of it. The slurry in the pan is now pretty thick, but sometimes it has a small amount of water over it which doesn't matter. This would dry on it's own, but I don't want dust in the air getting into it. I turn on the oven to 350 degrees, put the pan in there, then turn off the oven so as not to accidentally forget about it and burn the polish if such a thing could happen. This takes 2 or 3 or 4 times until the polish is dry and cracked up like a dry lake bed. Then I take a newspaper, slam the pan upside down on it, and put the dry caked polish back in storage to use again. It's not difficult or time consuming and it saves a lot of money. When making the new polish run with it, I put the polish in bottom of barrel, then pour in enough water to cover it and start soaking the dried polish to softness before adding rocks. I have noticed that tin reacts to this soak much slower than other polishes and the caked polish doesn't dissolve very quickly.
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Post by Bob on Jul 22, 2022 15:38:44 GMT -5
Well, I had my first week done yesterday with twice as much as usual tin oxide. I used almost a full cup instead of 1/2 cup in a 6lb rubber barrel that had about 1/2 rocks and 1/2 plastic pellets. It had a mixture of things in it, including feldspar including moonstone, lapis, dalmatian stone, and some obsidian. I forget to check if the polish slurry felt thicker in my fingers. The shine was fine, and it might be just a little bit better than usual, but not certain. However, the largest piece of obsidian had a very slightly pitted surface. It was a bit smaller than a lemon, and the largest obsidian I've ever tried to polish. There is a small chance this pitting occurred during an overnight of soap burnish, I forgot to check to be certain.
By the way all the obsidian was shiny, but not as good as the perfect shine I know can be obtained. The moonstone, although not a perfect shine, looked about as good as ever and was beautiful.
It blows me away how heavy tin ox is. Only 1 hour after pouring off the slurry in a transparent plastic container, it was nearly done settling and the water could be poured off. This morning, I noticed only a small amount of additional settling has occurred. It seems to settle more than twice as fast as alum ox, and maybe four or more times as fast as cerium oxide. That is handy!
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Mark K
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Post by Mark K on Jul 22, 2022 20:45:20 GMT -5
I also had a polish windfall so I use a lot of it and often save it and use again. If, that is I don't forget to cover it so it does not get contaminated.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jul 22, 2022 22:29:13 GMT -5
I think I use less than most use. (Rock Shed AO) A tablespoon for 8 pounds in a vibe. 4 tablespoons took 3 times longer to do the same job as 1 tablespoon. It's as if it just takes longer for the vibe to break down the excess. Some Lot-O menus may use a small amounts too.
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hoolligan1938
spending too much on rocks
Member since January 2022
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Post by hoolligan1938 on Jul 23, 2022 17:53:17 GMT -5
I'm here to tell you "yes" on using too much polish. Just to see what would happen, I used excess polish and knew it was too much but wanted to see if it worked faster or smoother. Well, when checking the barrel two days after starting I got a real surprise. It, the polish, was stuck all over the inside of the barrel and the lid. The stones had it caked on them sticking some stones together. This resulted in my having to scrub each stone with a stiff bristle brush but even then, there are some small lines filled with white polish. The barrel is now tumbling with some large ceramic filler and some scrap rock just to see if I can loosen the hard polish stuck on the barrel and lid. So yes! You can use too much polish. By the way, I was using some plastic pellets I had in the first tumble of polish that got so hard. I'll not use those things again, it will be small ceramic filler from here out.
Jim
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Post by HankRocks on Jul 23, 2022 18:15:31 GMT -5
I'm here to tell you "yes" on using too much polish. Just to see what would happen, I used excess polish and knew it was too much but wanted to see if it worked faster or smoother. Well, when checking the barrel two days after starting I got a real surprise. It, the polish, was stuck all over the inside of the barrel and the lid. The stones had it caked on them sticking some stones together. This resulted in my having to scrub each stone with a stiff bristle brush but even then, there are some small lines filled with white polish. The barrel is now tumbling with some large ceramic filler and some scrap rock just to see if I can loosen the hard polish stuck on the barrel and lid. So yes! You can use too much polish. By the way, I was using some plastic pellets I had in the first tumble of polish that got so hard. I'll not use those things again, it will be small ceramic filler from here out. Jim just curious, what type and size of barrel and how much polish did you use?
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Post by Bob on Jul 23, 2022 19:38:15 GMT -5
It's hard for me to see that happening with normal water levels. I put dry polish in first. Then some water to just cover it. Then the rocks. Some plastic beads on top and maybe had put some beads in before all rocks had been added. Then at end water.
Is there any chance you added polish last and it soaked up a lot of the water before you sealed it up?
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hoolligan1938
spending too much on rocks
Member since January 2022
Posts: 253
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Post by hoolligan1938 on Jul 24, 2022 9:51:48 GMT -5
I used a Lortone 3 lb. barrel on the Lortone tumbler. I believe I put three heaping tbs. of Raytech polish, about twice what I normally use. Was just curious. Not a good idea. I normally put in some small ceramic medium, the stones, fill water to about two thirds full and then add the polish. I then seal it up and shake it good, by hand, before tumbling. It works fine with about half the polish I used in the experiment. I think it was just too much polish.
Jim
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ericabelle
spending too much on rocks
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Post by ericabelle on Aug 29, 2022 19:26:49 GMT -5
This is all so interesting, thanks for starting this thread, Bob . I had originally thought I could put as much polish in as I wanted to, but it makes sense that it's just so fine and easily clumped and packed together, like powdered sugar, that it would be working against the goal to put a lot in.
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markb
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Post by markb on Sept 9, 2022 13:49:07 GMT -5
I think I use less than most use. (Rock Shed AO) A tablespoon for 8 pounds in a vibe. 4 tablespoons took 3 times longer to do the same job as 1 tablespoon. It's as if it just takes longer for the vibe to break down the excess. Some Lot-O menus may use a small amounts too. jamesp Jim, what kind of rocks are you typically tumbling when you only use 1 Tbs of AO polish for 8 lbs in a vibe? Or, do you find that the type of rock doesn't matter? I'm currently using 2.5-3 Tbs for my 10 lb UT-10 vibe, but was told earlier on before I got to this site that only 1 tsp was needed for a 3 lb rotary, regardless of what anybody else said. markb
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
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Post by jamesp on Sept 10, 2022 12:24:48 GMT -5
I think I use less than most use. (Rock Shed AO) A tablespoon for 8 pounds in a vibe. 4 tablespoons took 3 times longer to do the same job as 1 tablespoon. It's as if it just takes longer for the vibe to break down the excess. Some Lot-O menus may use a small amounts too. jamesp Jim, what kind of rocks are you typically tumbling when you only use 1 Tbs of AO polish for 8 lbs in a vibe? Or, do you find that the type of rock doesn't matter? I'm currently using 2.5-3 Tbs for my 10 lb UT-10 vibe, but was told earlier on before I got to this site that only 1 tsp was needed for a 3 lb rotary, regardless of what anybody else said. markb Talking vibes yes I use one tablespoon(15cc) of(fresh) Rock Shed Alum Ox polish per 8 pounds of agate or glass. It does matter, Mohs 5 glass does not break abrasive down as fast as Mohs 7 rocks. For example silicon carbide 30 or 60 can last a week easily doing glass, but no way when tumbling Mohs 7. I believe the 4 pound Lot-O also uses a small dose of polish if memory serves. Check out 50 year old Vibrasonic instructions, they say use 2/3 tablespoon(10cc) polish(alum ox, cer ox or tin ox) per pound of rock ! Too much. It took longer to get a polish when that dose was used. Must be the break down/rounding off process, that process must take longer with so much(new)polish for each batch perhaps. Consider that people re-use alum ox polish - Telling that it lasts a long time. Small dose goes a long way. Small abrasives are likely to stay original size than larger abrasive particles. I don't reuse polish because the particles are somewhat sharp at the beginning and smooth by the end of the batch. The fresh polish is sharp and removes more at start IMO. Better have a good pre-polish if re-using polish. Now rotaries do best with larger doses... Vibrasonic instructs, I'll include both pages for steps 1 thru 4 for what it's worth.
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