Justin
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since April 2022
Posts: 76
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Post by Justin on Jul 28, 2022 8:19:58 GMT -5
*****How long are y’all’s dops? I tried 5-6” dops and they kept hitting the subsequent wheels when trying to sand the girdle so I now use 1-1.5” dops, but I see other people who have long dops and I don’t understand how. ******* does it matter if your stone if off center on the dop or if your dop is not perfectly plumb? **** cerium oxide, tin oxide, diamond paste, Zam… which ones for which stones? when people keep talking about leather wheels with cerium, do they mean those huge wheels on a separate machine that I see people using or do they mean a wheel that you put on your horizontal cabber? Is it Ill-advised to use cerium on the soft back polishing pad that comes with the cabking…. Cause… hahah that’s what I’ve been doing 😅 ****is it really worth it to use 14k and 50k wheels? I really want to try them out but that seems like a big investment after recently dropping money on a cabking. **** how hard is it to build a cabbing machine?…. Say, if you wanted a two wheel system that has a 14k and 50k wheel on either side. 😇 *** where do I get motors that are used for wet rated tasks, such as: building a dual horizontal arbor, or for a 10” trim-saw. **** why does my dop-pot not completely melt the wax? I have to use a butane torch to melt the top. I’m beginning to think it’s because my basement is always around 62 degrees **** HOW DID LIVEOAK MAKE THAT LEAF?  I read where she said she cut out the preform on a bandsaw, I still don’t understand how she domed the stem OR how she got that perfect center line down the middle of the leaf! does that mean people are making all these hearts that I’m seeing on a cab machine too?? I thought they were preformed and then vibe tumbled. *** are nova wheels really not usable in sequence with standard cabking wheels? Cabking makes their own version of NOVA called diamondreZ and they (cabking) say that it’s ok to use diamond rez with the other (standard cabking) wheels. *** are nova REALLY that much better than the diamondreZ from cabking? *** how is Tommy cabbing without a dop? Is that a common practice? shew…. Ok. So that’s 1 round of questions. I’ll stop there for now. Sorry. Y’all are the only people I have to talk with about my interest so I’m sure there will be more to follow, but these should suffice for now 🤣 |
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Post by hummingbirdstones on Jul 28, 2022 9:53:51 GMT -5
*****How long are y’all’s dops? I tried 5-6” dops and they kept hitting the subsequent wheels when trying to sand the girdle so I now use 1-1.5” dops, but I see other people who have long dops and I don’t understand how. ******* does it matter if your stone if off center on the dop or if your dop is not perfectly plumb? **** cerium oxide, tin oxide, diamond paste, Zam… which ones for which stones? when people keep talking about leather wheels with cerium, do they mean those huge wheels on a separate machine that I see people using or do they mean a wheel that you put on your horizontal cabber? Is it Ill-advised to use cerium on the soft back polishing pad that comes with the cabking…. Cause… hahah that’s what I’ve been doing 😅 ****is it really worth it to use 14k and 50k wheels? I really want to try them out but that seems like a big investment after recently dropping money on a cabking. **** how hard is it to build a cabbing machine?…. Say, if you wanted a two wheel system that has a 14k and 50k wheel on either side. 😇 *** where do I get motors that are used for wet rated tasks, such as: building a dual horizontal arbor, or for a 10” trim-saw. **** why does my dop-pot not completely melt the wax? I have to use a butane torch to melt the top. I’m beginning to think it’s because my basement is always around 62 degrees **** HOW DID LIVEOAK MAKE THAT LEAF? I read where she said she cut out the preform on a bandsaw, I still don’t understand how she domed the stem OR how she got that perfect center line down the middle of the leaf! does that mean people are making all these hearts that I’m seeing on a cab machine too?? I thought they were preformed and then vibe tumbled. *** are nova wheels really not usable in sequence with standard cabking wheels? Cabking makes their own version of NOVA called diamondreZ and they (cabking) say that it’s ok to use diamond rez with the other (standard cabking) wheels. *** are nova REALLY that much better than the diamondreZ from cabking? *** how is Tommy cabbing without a dop? Is that a common practice? shew…. Ok. So that’s 1 round of questions. I’ll stop there for now. Sorry. Y’all are the only people I have to talk with about my interest so I’m sure there will be more to follow, but these should suffice for now 🤣 LOL! I'll try to answer a few of them for you. 1. Dop sticks can be whatever size you are comfortable with. I prefer shorter ones, myself. I like holding the dop closer to the stone for more control. The only thing I can think of for people using really long dops is that they have lots of space between the wheels. 2. It does make a difference having your stone centered and level on the dop as best you can. Having a lop sided stone dopped up would make it extremely difficult to get a stone that's not cut all wonky. It doesn't have to be absolutely perfect, but as close as you can get it is best. 3. My preferred polish is cerium. My husband's is tin. Either work very well on most stones, but there are times when something won't polish the way you want and then you try other options. Zam is usually reserved for use on softer stones like Turquoise. It's something you just kind of pick up over time with experience. Diamond paste will polish anything the same as the same grit diamond wheels. Which polish for which stone can be found in different books or an internet search. John Sinkakas' Gemstone and Mineral Data Book is one of them. 4. Leather wheels for Cerium - leather discs can be found or made for basically whatever type of machine you polish on. Flat lap, bull wheel, and yes, your end disc on your Cab King. That's exactly what that end disc is for.  5. In my opinion, 14K is absolutely necessary for a polish. I use both 14 and 50K as well as Cerium. 50K isn't necessary in a lot of cases. Do you not have a 14K on your Cab King? What size wheel sequence do you have? 6. Your dop pot is not melting your wax all the way because it's not getting hot enough or you have old wax in there (or even some bad wax). When you heat dop wax you lose some of the shellac every time you heat it up. You should never keep your dop pot on after you've finished dopping your stones. It just cooks the wax and ruins it. 7. liveoak will have to answer those questions for you, but I'm assuming she used a diamond bur to carve the leaf veins in the stone. 8. Yes, some people cab hearts on on a cabbing machine. It's not easy, but it can be done. Some folks will use a Dremel and diamond burs to carve them and then polish in a vibe. 9. Yes, you can use whatever brand diamond resin wheels on your machine that you want to. I prefer DP wheels, but it's a personal preference thing. 10. Yes, people cab without dop sticks all the time. I used to until my fingers starting getting arthritis and it became too painful. Dang, now I'm tired!  Hope that helps! |
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Justin
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since April 2022
Posts: 76
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Post by Justin on Jul 28, 2022 10:10:07 GMT -5
I make cabs to be bezel set in most cases. You want a slight angle to the girdle so that the base has a slightly bigger footprint than the face of the cab. This slight angle should allow for your dop stick to remain clear of the other wheels while sanding/polishing the girdle, which can be an unnecessary step since the bezel of your jewelry piece will cover up that girdle anyhow. So many questions lol, this should be a very informative thread. that’s a great start!! Thank you!!! |
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Post by liveoak on Jul 28, 2022 10:15:43 GMT -5
WOW Robin @ hummingbirdstones that was a very informative answer !
Have to add in about my leaf,
As you saw, I cut it out on my home brewed diamond band saw, and I completely did it on my 6" KN cabber.
Honestly I had wanted to carve veins in it & it frustrated me, so only now, a couple of months later, am I starting to set up a carving station.
The stem was tricky, but on the outer edge of the 6" wheels I was able to shape & polish it.
On the vertical end lap for your cabber, I found a great source for leather discs with the 1/4 X 20 screw , I also started using Battstik , with these leather discs, they come in cerium & tin, chrome, etc . They work as described & really don't make a mess.
Patty
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Justin
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since April 2022
Posts: 76
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Post by Justin on Jul 28, 2022 10:21:28 GMT -5
. Do you not have a 14K on your Cab King? What size wheel sequence do you have? 6. Your dop pot is not melting your wax all the way because it's not getting hot enough or you have old wax in there (or even some bad wax). When you heat dop wax you lose some of the shellac every time you heat it up. You should never keep your dop pot on after you've finished dopping your stones. It just cooks the wax and ruins it. so my sequence of wheels is 80, 220, 280, 600, 1,200, 3,000. That is the only setup that I have seen cabking offer, and it’s a 6” wheel. I would say that it absolutely what is going on with my dop!! In the instruction booklet (I ordered my dop pot off the cabking website same time as my machine) it said you can keep your dop pot on as long as you want the wax to stay ready to use…. So I took that to mean I could leave it on all day. Clearly, that was my mistake. I was very eager in the first 2 weeks of getting my cabking and pretty much left it on non-stop, except for when I went to bed. thank you for your answers! They have been very helpful 😃 |
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Justin
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since April 2022
Posts: 76
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Post by Justin on Jul 28, 2022 10:26:35 GMT -5
On the vertical end lap for your cabber, I found a great source for leather discs with the 1/4 X 20 screw , I also started using Battstik , with these leather discs, they come in cerium & tin, chrome, etc . They work as described & really don't make a mess.
Patty
Thank you!! I’m going to order some to try out. I’m pretty excited about it now! and again, your leaf…. *chefs kiss* was just absolutely stunning. Also found the information between aventurine and green chalcedony of great interest! |
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Post by liveoak on Jul 28, 2022 10:51:10 GMT -5
Thank you Justin- the leaf was fun.
I also am just starting out really, I got my cabber just before Christmas.
I guess that's 6 months now, but in my life, not too many hours on it since I also have to work for a living ( frown )
Just thought that I'd add that I have the same sequence of wheels as you ( and same size), so besides the leather discs for the end lap, I also purchased
diamond flat discs in 8,000, 14,000 & 50,000 so I was sure to have plenty to experiment with.
Honestly I haven't tried the 50,000 but once or twice, but I will say using the 8,000 after the 3000 6" wheel definitely showed a difference in the polish I got with the cerium.
I'll have to find the exact source & post the links later, if you're interested. I can't remember if I got the diamond laps from Kingsley North or Cutting Edge Supply, or Johnson Brothers.
Patty
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Post by hummingbirdstones on Jul 28, 2022 11:48:29 GMT -5
so my sequence of wheels is 80, 220, 280, 600, 1,200, 3,000. That is the only setup that I have seen cabking offer, and it’s a 6” wheel. Duh, of course you do! I was having not enough coffee brain fog on that one. We have our 8,000, 14K and 50K on another shaft that we switch out. |
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rockbrain
Cave Dweller 
Member since January 2022
Posts: 3,179
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Post by rockbrain on Jul 28, 2022 15:08:36 GMT -5
Only time a long dop stick should hit the adjacent wheel is if you're trying to do something on the back of the stone. I'm mostly self taught and it may very well not be the best way to do it, but I finish the front of my stone, remove it from the dop, then hold by hand to put a bevel on the back and clean it up a bit.
It's not real difficult to do a cab by hand but your nails will definitely suffer for it! The larger the cab the easier it is. Do a couple that way and you'll see you have a lot more control with the stick.
I've cabbed a few hearts and do it on a cab machine. Sometimes I put coarser grit belts on my expanding drum do do the cleavage. That's the toughest part to get right.
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Post by Pat on Jul 28, 2022 16:07:00 GMT -5
Soooo, dops or fingers. I tried dops first; too many steps. Then I tried fingers; much easier, so I've been using fingers ever since. No accidents. Good luck!
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Post by stardiamond on Jul 28, 2022 19:54:28 GMT -5
I use a hybrid approach; dop and fingers. I started out with fingers which was ok except for the abrasions. Working once a week there was time to heal. I work mainly with my fingers and use the dop when they would be too close to the wheels. My dops are about 2 inches. I get maximum control with the hybrid approach.
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Post by liveoak on Jul 28, 2022 20:06:05 GMT -5
Dop or not
I have to add in my limited experience,
I've had an undopped cab slip out of my fingers & slam against the bottom tray & break. Curse -
Learned my lesson.
But to each his own. YMMV
Patty
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Justin
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since April 2022
Posts: 76
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Post by Justin on Jul 29, 2022 8:06:09 GMT -5
Dop or not
I have to add in my limited experience,
I've had an undopped cab slip out of my fingers & slam against the bottom tray & break. Curse -
Learned my lesson.
But to each his own. YMMV
Patty
I too had that happen last night when I tried it! 🤣 Maybe I should be making bigger cabs! |
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Justin
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since April 2022
Posts: 76
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Post by Justin on Jul 29, 2022 8:13:53 GMT -5
Only time a long dop stick should hit the adjacent wheel is if you're trying to do something on the back of the stone. I'm mostly self taught and it may very well not be the best way to do it, but I finish the front of my stone, remove it from the dop, then hold by hand to put a bevel on the back and clean it up a bit. It's not real difficult to do a cab by hand but your nails will definitely suffer for it! The larger the cab the easier it is. Do a couple that way and you'll see you have a lot more control with the stick. I've cabbed a few hearts and do it on a cab machine. Sometimes I put coarser grit belts on my expanding drum do do the cleavage. That's the toughest part to get right. Yea, someone else mentioned yesterday that the girdle Doesn’t need to be 90 degrees and that insight made all the difference. It suddenly made so much sense (and to quote hummingbird) DUH on my part! Ocourse it shouldn’t be 90 degrees, that’s why all my wire wraps have had to have an extra wire since I started wrapping my own cabs 😂 the girdle isn’t slanted and therefore the stone doesn’t sit right in the wire. Also, it makes sense why other peoples dops aren’t hitting the wheels!! I tried last night to do a cab without a dop and much like liveoak, BLAM!!! right into the tray lol. Plus, I’m a massage therapist as my full time job so my fingers are of the utmost importance in my career. For that reason, I think I will be sticking with the dop. Thank you for your response! Everyone has been incredibly helpful! |
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Post by liveoak on Jul 29, 2022 8:59:21 GMT -5
Just to follow up, these are the 6" diamond I was talking about that I use on my vertical end lap. I found the cheapest price at Arrowhead, but most people sell them.
So, not a cheap add on , but I told myself that it will last a long time.
Patty
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Post by Rockoonz on Jul 29, 2022 10:05:12 GMT -5
*****How long are y’all’s dops? 3-4" long, mine are made from aluminum rod with a lathe. I use cheap HF epoxy mostly, and heat the aluminum with a torch to remove the finished cabs.******* does it matter if your stone if off center on the dop or if your dop is not perfectly plumb? Depends on the shape. For a round I want perfectly centered, for a teardrop I want about 2/3 towards the big end. Absolutely 90 degrees is important to me, as the dop is a point of reference for me to see the angles as I shape the cab**** cerium oxide, tin oxide, diamond paste, Zam… which ones for which stones? I just use diamond to 3000 for everything but a few finicky materials. I have a RR slow wheel with cerium on leather, and plan to put together a polisher with multiple heads for things like Chromium for jade and cerium on wool carpet for obsidian, maybe zam on a rag wheel for copper ore materials. The cerium pad on the end of a genie or other cabber is fine.****is it really worth it to use 14k and 50k wheels? I really want to try them out but that seems like a big investment after recently dropping money on a cabking. No, and yes. Most materials are good at 3000 if you take the time to make sure every step is completed before you move on, and for most silica based stones cerium might coax a little more wet look out of them. Biggest mistake with cerium is too much cerium and too much water. You should let it dry out enough to get a little grabby and warm up the rock, and once your leather is charged you should rarely add more. Some people add a very small amount to the water they initially wet the leather with.**** how hard is it to build a cabbing machine?…. Say, if you wanted a two wheel system that has a 14k and 50k wheel on either side. 😇 That's a tough question. It really depends on your experience with tools, availability of tools, and general mechanical aptitude. It's real easy to build something that will frustrate you every time you use it, harder to make something on par with factory machines. Since I retired and no longer have access to a full on tool and die shop I have to consider how I build anything.*** where do I get motors that are used for wet rated tasks, such as: building a dual horizontal arbor, or for a 10” trim-saw. I mostly buy off of Amazon, I can find you links for what I have found. I also watch CL and FB marketplace. I look for TEFC, farm duty, and wash down motors for wet use, no sense taking chances.**** why does my dop-pot not completely melt the wax? I have to use a butane torch to melt the top. I’m beginning to think it’s because my basement is always around 62 degrees That is why I use epoxy and sometimes double stick tape, NEVER wax.**** HOW DID LIVEOAK MAKE THAT LEAF? I have a flex shaft and all the related stuff for carving, and great respect for those who manage it on a cabber.*** are nova wheels really not usable in sequence with standard cabking wheels? Cabking makes their own version of NOVA called diamondreZ and they (cabking) say that it’s ok to use diamond rez with the other (standard cabking) wheels. I have only used DP soft wheels and Baltic soft wheels, they are pretty interchangable. Well, also diamond belts on expandos, which can be nice for finer grits for those with less bench space.*** are nova REALLY that much better than the diamondreZ from cabking? N o idea, haven't used. I am pretty happy with tha Johnson Bros textured 80 grit wheel on a separate machine for shaping before I move on to the genie*** how is Tommy cabbing without a dop? Is that a common practice? I do the perimeter work to shape all my cabs without a dop, almost 100%. If I am making one average sized cab I will sometimes finish it dopless, and some of the cabbed/carved focal beads are not dopped. Most of the time I work with batches, and will dop a dozen or more at once after they are shaped around the perimiter and before they are domed. Dops speed up the process enough for me to prefer them, and cold water dulls the pain of a grinding wheel removing a fingernail.shew…. Ok. So that’s 1 round of questions. I’ll stop there for now. Sorry. Y’all are the only people I have to talk with about my interest so I’m sure there will be more to follow, but these should suffice for now 🤣 Hope this helps, most of my answers are probably duplicates, and most the people who have already responded are better at it than I. FYI I am going to order the shaft for a home built cabber today. Assembly won't begin until cooler weather this fall, after the shop roof, and it won't be 2 wheels, but stay tuned. I will take photos when I get it started. |
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Post by rmf on Jul 29, 2022 10:43:58 GMT -5
justin I really like most of hummingbirdstones answers but would differ on a few points. I do not think that 14,000 and 50,000 are necessary for most cabs. This is my opinion. Here is why, In the old days when 99% of the cabbers were using SiC (Silicon Carbide) grinding wheels and belts the standard cab was polished similar to: 80-100 grit coarse wheel, 100 grit sanding belt, 220 grit sanding belt, 400 grit belt and last 600 grit sanding belt. Then on to polish which was Tin or Cerium oxides. Now we have diamond and if you go to 1200 grit it is much smaller than the 600 grit was and the 3000 grit is smaller yet followed by 8000 grit. This is where I typically stop and use conventional polishes like tin or cerium. Unless you are doing a ruby or are faceting a flat surface or possibly polishing a fire agate (special use cases) then your eye can't really tell the differences after 8000 grit. Of course with magnification and various stone properties like the special use cases listed there has to be experimentation. Polishes: I like Tin oxide because you are polishing with product that is about equal to 100,000. Where Cerium Oxide is typically about 8500 grit. I also like to add about 3 heaped tbl spoons of Linde A to a pound of Tin Oxide. Dops: I have moved off typical dop wax to minerken dops. This is because I have not had good luck with commercial dop pots. They do not get the dop wax hot enough or the stones hot enough and they kept popping off. I got to spending so much time redoping. Ken's Dops are expensive but he has been willing to tweek things to my liking. They are a dop with a 1/4 dia shaft and a head of various diameters made of aluminum and about 1.5 inches long. These dops then insert into a handle that I requested to be 4.5 inches long x 1/2" or 5/8" diameter. His original dop handles were Aluminum but I requested stainless and he uses stainless set screws. He has also made me some for larger stones that have 1 inch diameter handles and the dops have 3/8 in shafts and up to 1 inch diameter pads. These attach with cyano acrylic. At the end of the day the way you get a polish is less important than the polish you get. do what works for your hand size, grinder size and config.
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Post by hummingbirdstones on Jul 29, 2022 11:42:57 GMT -5
justin I really like most of hummingbirdstones answers but would differ on a few points. I do not think that 14,000 and 50,000 are necessary for most cabs. This is my opinion. Here is why, In the old days when 99% of the cabbers were using SiC (Silicon Carbide) grinding wheels and belts the standard cab was polished similar to: 80-100 grit coarse wheel, 100 grit sanding belt, 220 grit sanding belt, 400 grit belt and last 600 grit sanding belt. Then on to polish which was Tin or Cerium oxides. Now we have diamond and if you go to 1200 grit it is much smaller than the 600 grit was and the 3000 grit is smaller yet followed by 8000 grit. This is where I typically stop and use conventional polishes like tin or cerium. Unless you are doing a ruby or are faceting a flat surface or possibly polishing a fire agate (special use cases) then your eye can't really tell the differences after 8000 grit. Of course with magnification and various stone properties like the special use cases listed there has to be experimentation. Polishes: I like Tin oxide because you are polishing with product that is about equal to 100,000. Where Cerium Oxide is typically about 8500 grit. I also like to add about 3 heaped tbl spoons of Linde A to a pound of Tin Oxide. Dops: I have moved off typical dop wax to minerken dops. This is because I have not had good luck with commercial dop pots. They do not get the dop wax hot enough or the stones hot enough and they kept popping off. I got to spending so much time redoping. Ken's Dops are expensive but he has been willing to tweek things to my liking. They are a dop with a 1/4 dia shaft and a head of various diameters made of aluminum and about 1.5 inches long. These dops then insert into a handle that I requested to be 4.5 inches long x 1/2" or 5/8" diameter. His original dop handles were Aluminum but I requested stainless and he uses stainless set screws. He has also made me some for larger stones that have 1 inch diameter handles and the dops have 3/8 in shafts and up to 1 inch diameter pads. These attach with cyano acrylic. At the end of the day the way you get a polish is less important than the polish you get. do what works for your hand size, grinder size and config. Just to clarify, I use Super Cerium which which has a micron size between .7 - 1.2. So basically 14,000 or over. The other thing to remember is that oxides have some other stuff going on when you use them to polish stones. Plastic deformation or some such scientific thing that is way above my pay grade. It used to be called the Bielby Layer (which actually applied to metal) and folks still fight about it. All I know is it works and it scientifically does exist (can be seen under electron microscopes), so I really don't care about the "theory" per se. |
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Post by drocknut on Jul 29, 2022 13:52:29 GMT -5
I make cabs to be bezel set in most cases. You want a slight angle to the girdle so that the base has a slightly bigger footprint than the face of the cab. This slight angle should allow for your dop stick to remain clear of the other wheels while sanding/polishing the girdle, which can be an unnecessary step since the bezel of your jewelry piece will cover up that girdle anyhow. So many questions lol, this should be a very informative thread. Just FYI, polishing the girdle is necessary if the cab is used for wire wrapping because the wire doesn't always cover up the girdle. Same goes for polishing the backs of cabs. |
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Hope that helps!
