chassroc
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Rocks are abundant when you have rocktumblinghobby pals
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Post by chassroc on Dec 20, 2012 8:52:37 GMT -5
We certainly need a reasonable discussion about reasonable gun control in this country. For a civilized country, we have an inordinate amount of gun killings. We also have more guns per capita than any country outside of the Congo and Syria and we're not sure about Syria.
The discussion right now is about assault rifles/high volume ammo clips and the fact that the rapid discharge speed and capacity make it possible to do horrific damage very quickly, In the latest slaughter, 27 little children and their school teachers were shot between 3 and 11 times each in 2 or 3 minutes time. This is not acceptable in our society. We can and must do better and stop the trend we are seeing.
We have seen the feeble excuses on other threads, to wit, "in China a man attacked school children with a knife. Horrific yes, fatal no. No one, let alone 27 innocents, died from the knife attack. Death is final and fatal. This is the end as Jim would sing. It may have been his friend, but he and most of the rest of us would like a say in how we go. We have seen the usual cliches of Guns dont kill people, people kill people. Do you really think that without the assault weapon, all these innocents would be dead?
It is time to act
Charlie
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Dec 20, 2012 10:38:55 GMT -5
You're entitled to your opinion Charlie but there are plenty of gun laws on the books if folks would enforce them properly, heck even here in Texas. The main issue as I see it is the failure of mental health services, school security, proper back ground checking, improper storage of firearms and ammo, constant exposure to violence in the media, and of course parenting that in this country has gone away beyond crappy in many instances. Most folks I know have so called assault weapons ( a definition by the way which fits pretty near any gun). Heck, most folks I know pack concealed pistols with high volume mags. They don't go into schools and shoot kids. It's the human monsters that kill, and they will kill whatever the weapon used. Again, I doubt you've ever had an instance when you needed a gun in private life so you are really in no position to judge whether folks need one or not. Again, firearms are used in self defense situations more than 500,000 times a year in the US. You really need to join the NRA Charlie so you can read the armed citizen column and read some of those stories. For many seniors especially, the firearm is the only protection against younger stronger criminals, that is effective.
People with guns kill people, people with knives and bombs and cars kill people, people with scalpels in hospitals kill people. People kill people regardless of the tool used. It ain't an excuse or a cliche, it's plain truth which you refuse to accept A proficient shooter of any modern gun can shoot and reload any gun quickly enough to kill large numbers of people by the way. And also, it ain't most the rest of the country as you'd like to have folks believe. Most the rest of the country wants to keep their guns and it could get ugly if the government tries to confiscate weapons.
Got to say this is obvious if you open your eyes. Folks are lined up buying guns. Wally World is almost sold out of semi autos, folks are joining the NRA at 8,000 per day. Ammo is getting scarce in the stores, and the background check lines are overloaded with great frequency. I think it was Time Magazine recently did a poll about how many favor gun control. The results which were super strongly in favor of gun ownership offended them so badly they did the poll over again with the same results. What does this tell you about how the majority of Americans feel about gun control Charlie?.
It's time to act all right but not against gun ownership..Mel
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Post by geoff on Dec 20, 2012 11:06:08 GMT -5
You know what's more important than a discussion on gun control? A discussion on affordable, accessible mental health care.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2012 11:16:14 GMT -5
It will not matter whether a whacko has to pull the trigger one time or 20 times. The difference is a matter of a few seconds. The goobment should not have allowed that type of rifle on the open market in the first place.
So where does that leave us? Confiscation? Impossible. And super expensive if they try.
Take them off the market? Will not change a thing because there is already millions of them out there.
Give us a solution Charlie. I would love to see that kind of act never happen again.
Yes, I made reference to the Chinese problem even though none of those children lost their lives. They had a lucky day. My point was that people without guns still find a way to harm the children. And they have zero guns of any kind. Plus, there are a lot of Chinese attacks that do not get reported to the media because they feel that it causes the loonies to follow in each others wake. The media here is in a frenzy and will be for another month until another crazy kills more of our children.
When I sit here and think about the children of the world suffering I do not hear anyone screaming about the hundreds of thousands that are dieing of starvation, forced into slave labor and prostitution, having to carry their water miles to and from a water source etc etc.
I am not trying to make light of what happened, I teared up when I read about it as I am doing now. The children of this world are pretty much being pushed to the bottom of the food chain and I do not hear the people screaming about it until some of (our babies) are brutally killed. If you scream about one you should be screaming about them all.
SOLUTIONS CHARLIE. I will be right behind you if you can figure out solutions for ALL the children of the world. Show me one place on this forum that you made a comment about the children of the world suffering a slow or fast death.
So, act Charlie. Come up with a solution instead of screaming about the problem. Jim
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Post by geoff on Dec 20, 2012 11:18:23 GMT -5
So, act Charlie. Come up with a solution instead of screaming about the problem. Jim I already did for him.
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Post by jakesrocks on Dec 20, 2012 11:22:35 GMT -5
What is a gun Charlie ? I'll tell you. It's an inanimate piece of scrap metal and plastic. If a nut case never had access to that piece of scrap metal, it would do no harm. It would over time rust away to dust.
Go online and do a little checking around. I'll bet you'll find that you have common household ingredients in your own home which could produce a bomb which is much more destructive than a gun. A bomb which would take many more lives, more quickly than any gun possibly could. Do you have bottles of bleach and ammonia in your cleaning supplies ? Mix them together and pour them into the air conditioning ducts at a school, and see what happens. You'll kill or seriously injure every single person inside that school. So, do you want to ban the ownership of bleach and ammonia ? How about the iodine found in your medicine cabinet ? Mixed with the right ingredients, it's quite deadly. There are thousands of formulas available on the internet which will produce deadly poisons or gasses. All made from common household ingredients. Do you want to ban all common household chemicals, for fear that some nut case will do a little internet searching ?
Charlie, if they could round up and destroy every single gun in the entire world, we would be no safer from the nut cases of the world. They'd find another method of mass murder. Take away all of the guns, and you take away what may be the only method of defense some may have against these nut cases.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2012 11:26:11 GMT -5
We were writing at the same time.
Geoff and Mel, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. People (most people) in this country can not afford getting their teeth fixed so where does that leave the mentally handicapped. Living in a box behind a building and eating in soup lines or trash lines. Jim
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fmelvis
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Post by fmelvis on Dec 20, 2012 11:49:46 GMT -5
I know the 2nd amendment gives a citizen the right to own a firearm, does it also give him the right to own bullets?
DO you think Obama will try to ban bullets or certain types of bullets?
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Post by jakesrocks on Dec 20, 2012 11:58:54 GMT -5
Elvis, why do you think bullets are flying off the shelves ? I'm not worried. I already have enough ammo for 2 lifetimes.
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stillalive
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Post by stillalive on Dec 20, 2012 12:30:52 GMT -5
In this so called wonderful country that I call home-no-one outside of the police and armed forces are allowed to own a gun-that didn't stop an ex policeman from shooting my sister and her four boys back in the 80's-people are right,it ain't the guns that are the problem,it's the retards that are allowed to get their hands on them-ban guns and they will simply use other weapons-as already pointed out by several (in the know)people right here-did banning anything ever reduce the problem?I sincerely doubt it-history tells us otherwise,and fools will always be fools.John
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Fossilman
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Post by Fossilman on Dec 20, 2012 12:59:41 GMT -5
As for gun control,I can see having a waiting period after buying a weapon.......Also ban buying weapons online! But they don't need to ban any weapon because of some mental people that go over the edge!!!! (not the weapons fault-PERIOD) Most gun owners are liable and careful with their rifles and or pistols! We shouldn't have to explain why we like assault rifles and why we like shooting them!!!!Its a gun collectors thing. If you don't like it,fine! Just don't force your issues into my face either! I'm for some gun control,but don't go overboard and take weapons away!!!!! Think logically!!!
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grayfingers
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Post by grayfingers on Dec 20, 2012 13:05:36 GMT -5
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unclestu
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Post by unclestu on Dec 20, 2012 13:34:40 GMT -5
I would like to make an amendment to the old cliché "guns don't kill people people do" In light of all of these mass attacks it should read " mentally ill people do" The problem isn't guns it is a mental health issue. We as a society are more concerned with the individual rights of a mentally ill person as opposed to the rights of that persons potential victims. It is so sad that certain politicians seek to use these tragedies to further their own agendas.
Stu
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Fossilman
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Post by Fossilman on Dec 20, 2012 13:44:43 GMT -5
My favorite pic online.......
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Post by helens on Dec 20, 2012 14:23:38 GMT -5
Every time I see another article about crazy people who kill a lot of innocents, I get so mad... I don't know what the solution is either...
But I agree with Don that a gun is a piece of metal. It's a tool, it doesn't run around firing itself, and if we were to ban every dangerous thing, we'd have to ban slippery bathtubs and kitchen knives as well. Responsibility is not something you can force on strangers, with the best of intention and the strongest laws. People who commit crimes, particularly ones which end in their own deaths, simply do not care about punishments.
One difference I've been thinking about is the ability of guns to kill MANY people at once. Fully automatic guns are banned, but maybe gun clips that hold too many bullets should be too? Older shotguns, arguably the most effective deterrent for home invaders, sometimes only hold 2 shells at a time, and then you reload. Those few seconds might make the difference for someone to tackle a gunman. Maybe they should ban the extra big magazines/clips that hold way more than the normal amount of bullets? Who needs that for self-defense? I seriously don't know the answer.
As for gun waiting periods, background checks, etc... responsible homeowners get their homes broken into too. Guns get stolen every single day, and I'd imagine that most crimes are not committed with their own registered weapons but ones stolen from careful, law-abiding citizens.
The kid that committed this horrible crime first murdered his mother and gained access to her guns. How do you prevent that by having waiting periods or restrictions? What if that kid went to his neighbors house with a butcher's knife, killed his neighbor and stole his guns to commit the same crime?
As Jim pointed out, there was a recent incident where a crazy man in China murdered a whole bunch of small children at a school... with a knife only. They have gun restrictions in China, and it did not prevent a tragedy there very similar to the tragedy here.
Blaming guns for this lack is like blaming cars for drunk drivers. Something we do not even think of doing. There's no law against alcohol either, yet 95% of traffic fatalities are alcohol related. What we do is to educate people on the dangers of drinking and driving, and yes, locking up drunk drivers. I haven't seen a movement to ban alcohol or cars, despite that the vast majority of deaths in the US between the ages of 6 and 33 are caused by those 2, and not guns.
The bigger problem in the US isn't guns, it's the lack of mental health care accessibility. Something most insurances will not cover. Where do people with violent mental conditions GO for help? They won't treat it at hospitals or regular doctors offices. What do they DO right now? They can't call a suicide hotline to say, "I'm having these crazy thoughts about killing a bunch of innocent children at a school". Who CAN they call?
This nation has absolutely not one provision for dangerous mentally incompetent people right now, and these incidents happen over and over. We read about the mass killing of children, but how many men kill their own wives, kids and strangers every day who suffer from the same type of mental problem we completely ignore? We seem to blame everything we can except the condition that causes it. Guns kill no one by themselves.
I'm not convinced that any gun restrictions is going to improve a thing. Where do restrictions stop once we start, without addressing the actual problem? That people who are thinking this need help, and cannot get it? I think providing better mental health services might be the better answer.
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fmelvis
starting to spend too much on rocks
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Post by fmelvis on Dec 20, 2012 14:40:39 GMT -5
A bathtub is not designed to kill. Cars are not designed to kill. Guns have one purpose and one only.
The tragedy in china helen had a very different outcome, so please.
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Post by geoff on Dec 20, 2012 14:48:15 GMT -5
True, but why should criminals be the only ones with access to them?
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fmelvis
starting to spend too much on rocks
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Post by fmelvis on Dec 20, 2012 15:12:00 GMT -5
geoff, I was trying to say that comparing a gun to household items and cars is silly. I can choke on a tooth pick ( and I'm sure a few people wish I would ). But those things are accidents. Even drunk drivers don't get in a car thinking, yeah, I'm gonna kill someone.
When a nutbar gets it into his mind that hes gonna commit mass murder, getting weapons is not a problem. Even that guy seeing a shrink in colorado had no problems getting a weapon.
If we can find out in seconds what your fico score is, there must be a way to have a don't sell the crazy an assault rifle warning. If it takes a week or a month, who cares? Responsible gun retailers are a must.
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stillalive
starting to spend too much on rocks
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Post by stillalive on Dec 20, 2012 16:01:20 GMT -5
Helen,all of your points and observations are valid, as individuals we are all entitled to our opinions,but opinions and points of view change as we experience more of life-with all of it's wonders and horrors-every bad thing that happens shocks us all-until something even more horrific happens,-we adjust, because we have no choice,and hopefully we move on;-that isn't to say that we are unfeeling or don't care,but there is no doubt in my mind that people become less affected/aware,the more this happens-once upon a time-not that long ago-rape,murder,etc were quite isolated things,rare enough to shock us all,not so any more-perhaps we should all be looking at our own reactions these days,and questioning the people that we ourselves,through the democratic process placed in positions of power,-I have no desire to become political,in the wake of these tragic times,but I do feel that our so called "leaders" would react in a different way if anyone they cared about had been murdered so callously-observations from a safe distance,John.
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Dec 20, 2012 16:07:20 GMT -5
Elvis, I think they will go after magazine size first. They did that when I was in California making many guns that were legally purchased instantly illegal. Not that anyone turned them in *L*. Speaking of ammo, the ammo the government purchases for it's various agencies including homeland security and Internal revenue, is usually the most lethal type available, usually a heavy expansion hollowpoint with a plastic tip insert to let the bullets go through doors or windows and still penetrate deeply into their target. I always figure, if the government needs that to protect themselves and supposedly us too, then civilians ought to have access to the same ammo to protect ourselves when the government isn't there to do so, which for the most part it never is.
Also it was pointed out in class that you really want to use the same ammo the police use so if you are in court for a self defense shooting, they can't say you used something especially lethal. You just say, Hey, I used the same load all the cops carry for defense
Oh and guns have more than one purpose. They can deter a violent criminal without even having to shoot them and they can provide defense to an individual because they equalize force in situations where there is a disparity of strength and physical ability. Someone once said. " God man man, but Sam Colt made man equal" A gun has the potential to help a 90 year old in a wheel chair or a 90 pound little gal defend themselves against a jail hardened 260 pound beast. Guns don't just kill, they also , in the right situation, prevent innocent folks from being robbed, killed etc. Your very statement that guns are only for killing shows how wrongheaded you are on this issue. Again, get a copy of the NRA magazine and read the "armed citizen" section which is full of just this sort of story right out of the papers and those are just a very small amount of the self defense situations that occur. I've had to draw a gun twice and display one once to deter bad guys. In two of the situations there were multiple big honking bad guys and man was I happy to be packing! Happily, I did not even have to fire and even better, neither my wife nor I were robbed or killed all because of a little defensive tool called a handgun...... .Mel
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