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Post by jakesrocks on Dec 20, 2012 18:17:17 GMT -5
No need to apologize John. The only ones you may have offended are the anti gun groupies.
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unclestu
Cave Dweller
WINNER OF THE FIRST RTH KILLER CAB CONTEST UNCLESTU'S AGUA NUEVA AGATE
Member since April 2011
Posts: 2,298
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Post by unclestu on Dec 20, 2012 18:18:54 GMT -5
why don't you protect yourself with a screw driver then? That has got to be the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard. Everyone know a hammer would be a better choice. Mass murder is mass murder. You don't need a gun to commit mass murder. Remember Oklahoma City? All you need is diesel fuel and fertilizer and a box truck. Easily available to anyone. You have to address the mental health system in this country. Stu
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The Dad_Ohs
fully equipped rock polisher
Take me to your Labradorite!!
Member since September 2012
Posts: 1,860
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Post by The Dad_Ohs on Dec 20, 2012 18:51:54 GMT -5
We certainly need a reasonable discussion about reasonable gun control in this country. For a civilized country, we have an inordinate amount of gun killings. We also have more guns per capita than any country outside of the Congo and Syria and we're not sure about Syria. The discussion right now is about assault rifles/high volume ammo clips and the fact that the rapid discharge speed and capacity make it possible to do horrific damage very quickly, In the latest slaughter, 27 little children and their school teachers were shot between 3 and 11 times each in 2 or 3 minutes time. This is not acceptable in our society. We can and must do better and stop the trend we are seeing. We have seen the feeble excuses on other threads, to wit, "in China a man attacked school children with a knife. Horrific yes, fatal no. No one, let alone 27 innocents, died from the knife attack. Death is final and fatal. This is the end as Jim would sing. It may have been his friend, but he and most of the rest of us would like a say in how we go. We have seen the usual cliches of Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Do you really think that without the assault weapon, all these innocents would be dead? It is time to act Charlie It was 19 children and the rest, adults last I heard not 27 children. I know the town it happened in, know the school it happened in, and have friends that live there still and some of their kids attend, or attended the school were it happened. I can do the same amount of damage with a revolver and speed loaders, a semi-auto pistol with extra clips, any semi auto rifle or shotgun. A shotgun will do more damage with less shots depending on the ammo used. Do I condone this type of thing? Hell No!!! Is taking away the guns in this country the answer? Hell No!! In Italy, Switzerland, Germany and most of the European countries, the rifle you are issued in the army (mandatory service!) you take home with you and you are expected to maintain it, practice with it and keep it. If there is a need you are expected to report with it for duty. I know of families that have 3,4 even 5 generations of military in the same house and they all have their service weapons ready to go at a moments notice. To sit back and say GUN CONTROL !!! is a sad thing... it means that I, a person who has served 10 years in the army for this country is no longer going to be able to have a gun to provide meat for my family, or a means of protecting same family, I will not be able to teach my daughter the responsibility of proper handling of a firearm, or the correct & safe way to use it, and it also means that I will be at the mercy of every lunatic that has a gun whether a home made zip gun or black market 'throw away' guns. I refuse to accept that reality, when that happens I will move out of the US and go somewhere else, renouncing my citizenship of the country I love but no longer loves me for who I am!! Who am I?? I am the ex-service son of uncle Sam that is willing to protect this country with my life, and having served my country I now live knowing that I may have to do so at any given time if I am called back to duty, because, All members of the military upon discharge sign a paper that states they accept that they can be called back to active duty at any given time if there is a threat to this country and their service is once again needed!! We don't need gun control, discussions on gun control, or any lamenting of gun control, we need to educate the citizens of this country, encourage more people to arm themselves with guns, and enforce the laws we have in place now. If more people carried guns, were educated about use of a gun, and practiced with their guns on a regular basis, the shooting may not have ever happened as the shooter would have been shot in the school... probably by a teacher or staff member who carried a gun in their purse/pocket! Everyone is saying how the world s going to hell in a hand basket, I can tell you this... those left here after will either be armed or wishing they were!! While you are complaining about guns in this country, remember this; A wise man once counseled peace and the virtues therein, until one night he was grabbed on his way home. He refused these men's demands and tried to win them over with his talk of peace and how violence is never the answer, and then was forced to sit & watch as his family was shot in front of him. Later it was said that if he carried the gun he was given instead of leaving it locked in his house with no ammo on the premises, he would have easily fought off his attackers and he and his family would be safe. And remember this... No one joins the army thinking, "YEAH, GONNA GO OUT & KILL SOMEBODY!!", but they are trained to do just that. Nobody buys a hunting rifle with the thought "If I don't get a deer, I'm gonna go kill everyone at the store that sold me the rifle!" Most of the people who commit these atrocities are later found to be mentally impaired to some extent, and should have never been allowed to have a firearm in the first place. I am not looking for an argument or even a lengthy discussion on this subject and will not reply to it again.... I felt a need to voice my opinion on the matter and having done so I withdraw to leave the rest of you to your discussions. I wish you all peace & tranquility in the coming New Year and pray to god that you will never find yourself in a position where you wish you had a firearm to defend yourself but don't because you don't believe in the necessity of owning a firearm. PEACE OUT !!!
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Post by helens on Dec 20, 2012 18:54:48 GMT -5
Mental illness affects 1 out every 4 people,at some time in their lives,so does that mean that 1 out of every 4 world leaders are mental?It would seem so-but then you have to think about all of the mentally ill people who vote for these headcases-that is a huge amount of unstable people,then consider the number of people in jail-how many of them should be getting treatment instead of incarceration-how many so called sane people actually get to vote for so called sane politicians? As the numbers diminish,so does the credibility of so called democracy-the less actual real representation real people get,the less reality actually exists-confused?So am I,John. Actually, I think that's exactly what it means... that 1 in 4 World Leaders are mental. And we probably wouldn't have 1 in 4 people suffering from mental illness if we cared more about the issue as a society, nor have incidents like this one. Your argument speaks better for democracy than any other argument I've seen actually. See... if 1 in 4 people are mental, then the majority at any given time is NOT mental. Thus, the winner of an election has that much better odds of being the only sane candidate:).
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stillalive
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since May 2011
Posts: 136
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Post by stillalive on Dec 20, 2012 18:55:29 GMT -5
;D Thanks Don-once we were warriors,backing off was never an option for us;-but sometimes it really can be better to back off and rethink,I know I am a little younger than you and some of your friends,but I get the feeling that it's only distance that separates us all at the end of the day.John.
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Post by geoff on Dec 20, 2012 22:43:36 GMT -5
Ok, not sure what exactly you're getting at, but here is what I take away from this list.
This country's idea of mental health is to throw pills at the problem. This still doesn't address the root cause of the issue. I see things systematically. Lets refer to the Sandy Hook shooting as a failure. What factors contributed to the failure? The immediate cause would be someone shot people with guns. Ok, so guns can be listed as the immediate cause of this failure. Lets imagine a society where no guns, not even criminals or law enforcement have guns. Could this failure have still occurred? Yes. Coincidentally a similar failure occurred in China the same day. This time with a knife.
Ok, so lets move past "gun" and broaden it to weapon. The failure was the result of a person with a weapon killing people. Ok, let's imagine another society. One with no weapons. Could this have still happened? Yes. Bludgeoning murders are a thing, and they don't require a dedicated "weapon".
Well, we can't take away everything that could possibly be used as a weapon. So lets look past that aspect. Why did this failure occur? Because a person felt the need to kill innocent people. Why? Dunno. Lets look at the person. Adam Lanza. Of the few things we know of him, one stands out. Personality disorder. Ok, so a mentally ill person caused this failure.
But not all people with mental illness kill people. Take me for example. I've been on a daily regimine of anti depression and anti anxiety medication for 4 years now. My dosages have changed. I've been taken off one flavor and put on another without causing a massacre. What's the difference? It could be that I spent 7 weeks in an intensive inpatient treatment program through the VA, and that all of my medications were monitored and adjusted in a controlled environment while surrounded be people who were going or had one through exactly what I was.
See, I had a failure. I tried to kill myself after my depression and anxiety and nightmares and flash backs (PTSD) got to be too much to bear. This was on active duty! When I had access to free mental health care! Why didn't I seek help prior to 'going off the deep end'? Because of the negative connotations of mental health care. It's so frowned upon on our society to need help, that even people with access to it avoid it. If you need proof, look at the number of suicides in active duty and recently discharged veterans. All these people have access.
Sorry for the side track, but its very relevant. What are the chances the people in this list received adequet mental healthcare? What are the chances that they were instead given a prescription for pills and left to their devices? See, here is another thing I have experience in. The first medication they tried on me was 20mg Paxil. Within three days I was trying to smash my head through a wall. Complete uncontrollable rage. So they stopped it, put me on a mood stabilizer (tranquilizer) and then tried Celexa. It worked great. For the first time since I could remember (not hyperbole) I felt like myself. After a few weeks, it started to wear off. Well, not wear off. I got adjusted to it. But it wasn't perfect. The doctors added Welbutrin and changed my sleeping medicine and I have been on that regimine ever since. Not everyone reacts the same to different medications. I can't think of any anti depressant that doesn't list homicidal/suicidal thoughts as a side effect. The reason is because of what I experienced. Paxil did not agree with my chemistry.
While in the treatment program they focused on teaching coping skills, how to identify when you are 'relapsing', the dangers of self medication, and most importantly, they taught about the medications and how they work. To me, that was huge. So many people feel better after a couple months and stop taking their medicine. They didn't just tell us that's bad and not to do it, they told us why. What exactly caused the downward spiral once you stop your medicine.
7 weeks. 7 weeks and I was stabilized and ready to be set loose on society. I still go to counseling every month or so, but its a maintenance thing. Like hey, how's it going, how you sleeping, what's going on in your life? A way to identify potential problems before they get huge.
The thing about this awesome program? It cost over $40,000. For 7 weeks. That is where affordability comes in. I can't think of very many people who can afford that. Even if they desperately want the help.
So, getting back on topic, it's not weapons, it's not pills, it's not even the people. It's the disease and the inability to treat it beyond throwing pills at it.
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Post by BAZ on Dec 20, 2012 22:46:22 GMT -5
No matter, God bless all you good folks.
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Post by helens on Dec 20, 2012 23:35:10 GMT -5
Geoff, that's a brilliant post. As far as I know, there IS no civilian alternative to the military's treatment of mental health. In an article I read, that boy found out his mom was going to have him 'committed', so he killed her and in rage killed the other kids. Had there been counseling or a facility he could have been taken to for a 7 week intensive treatment like you got before he terrorized her badly enough to try to 'commit' him, this may never have happened.
As far as I know, that doesn't exist except for military and movie stars who pay $40,000 out of pocket cash for one months' rehab course... something not available to suburban middle class families, let alone inner city poor.
As far as I know, mental health treatment is only covered by a handful of insurance policies, and of course carry the potential stigma attached. It's like we only have 1/2 the care in this country, physical but not mental care. While we all know that being healthy can often be just a state of mind.
Making that happen may prevent most if not ALL the gun homicides. I don't know how they can legislate the availability of this when we're in such a deficit fix, but if we don't, tragedies like this will keep happening.
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Post by geoff on Dec 21, 2012 0:18:14 GMT -5
Well, thanks for reading the first two sentences of my post. Get back to me when you finish it.
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Post by geoff on Dec 21, 2012 0:25:18 GMT -5
I am saying that these psychotripic drugs are CAUSING the problem, look at the list again.....it speaks for itself.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2012 0:39:35 GMT -5
Geoff, with the stigma attached to depression and mental illness nobody wants to talk about it but you had the balls to step up.
I too am on anti depressants through the VA. I have not had the therapy but it was talked about. My meds have been switched around until the correct combination was found and I now only see my med doctor every other month by telahealth (video and audio over the net) so I do not have to drive so far. I never attempted suicide but when my quality of life gets down to the point that I can not continue my option will be a GUN. I feel that all the elderly should have the option to turn the light off and a gun is the least painful. It is not going to be (damn, I wish I wouldn't have done that) it will be lights out, zero, black nothing.
I am happy that you got through it. You have a beautiful family now and it looks like your on top of the world. Almost literally. lol But do not stop the meds because they are not a cure except after years being on them and that is not an absolute. Jim
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cherok
having dreams about rocks
Member since December 2012
Posts: 66
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Post by cherok on Dec 21, 2012 1:28:58 GMT -5
All of us are human, and no one can control another. Anytime someone is killed in an act of violence, it affects many. Gun control, mental illness, or whatever circumstance creates a problem, its terrible. None of us as human beings wants to see or be involved with violence.
But the truth is, God or whatever entity put us here, whether we get along is up to each individual. No one can control anyone. No one can stop all the evils that take place in this world. All the speculations and ideals can not stop the violence. We can try to amend, but in the end the truth comes between your God and you.
There is no right solution or answers to senseless acts of hate or violence. Its the world we live in. Unfortunate as it may be, it is time to move on. Take care of your own, protect them and treat others with kindness. Maybe a change will take place. Wouldn't that be original.
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Post by catmandewe on Dec 21, 2012 2:25:57 GMT -5
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Post by catmandewe on Dec 21, 2012 11:30:30 GMT -5
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Post by geoff on Dec 21, 2012 11:48:04 GMT -5
What, you had to delete your posts? Stand behind your words! If that's how you really feel, then own it.
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Mark K
Cave Dweller
Member since April 2012
Posts: 2,600
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Post by Mark K on Dec 21, 2012 13:04:54 GMT -5
Foxtail-you are obviously a strange dude-number one,you hold the keys to others freedom,number two,you readily talk about how easy it would be to kill children,and give ways to do it!Never set foot on my little island little man,you would not be welcomed,John. I think you have either completely missed my point or you have had your mind altered by being a subject of a country rather than a citizen. You also clearly think that I came up with the scenario I presented. In case you don't realize it, we actually have to talk to these inmates we babysit. One time a guy told me that the easiest way to kill someone is to go to his house at 3 in the am and knock on his door and tell him you have had an accident. Then you sink a hatchet into his head. Pretty gruesome, huh? And speaking of heads, pull your out of your duffle bag. You will actually see the light.
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Post by jakesrocks on Dec 21, 2012 13:21:05 GMT -5
Me thinks Geoff OD'd on the Obama coolaid.
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fmelvis
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since November 2010
Posts: 235
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Post by fmelvis on Dec 21, 2012 13:26:33 GMT -5
to no ones surprise, the NRA's solution is cops or guards in the school. The idea, is not a bad one. The problem would be the cost, and making sure we screen potential guards very careful. Of course there is the risk ( albeit small ) that a guard goes wacko on the job.
How many guards/cops per school? one? one at each entrance? One at each classroom? Alot of towns have laid off regular cops, how do you now put full time cops in each school?
Are you willing to pickup the costs?
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Post by parfive on Dec 21, 2012 14:10:11 GMT -5
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chassroc
Cave Dweller
Rocks are abundant when you have rocktumblinghobby pals
Member since January 2005
Posts: 3,586
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Post by chassroc on Dec 21, 2012 14:21:25 GMT -5
Tony, I was looking at your post that mass shootings are not on the rise. This has appeared in quite a few news sites over the past week so I took a brief look at the facts within...If you notice, most everyone is quoting the same two sources, 1) Northeastern University criminologist James Alan Fox, and 2) Grant Duwe, a criminologist with the Minnesota State Department of Corrections. Sounds impressive but these two are playing loose and fast with the facts. and why aren't others weighing in to verify the data shown. For example: In this article my Boston Crony Fox says: Myth: Mass shootings are on the rise. Reality: Over the past three decades, there has been an average of 20 mass shootings a year in the United States, each with at least four victims killed by gunfire. Occasionally, and mostly by sheer coincidence, several episodes have been clustered closely in time. Over all, however, there has not been an upward trajectory. To the contrary, the real growth has been in the style and pervasiveness of news-media coverage, thanks in large part to technological advances in reporting.But if you look at his graph, it clearly shows that the TRUTH is that mass shootings are on the rise, from approximately: 765 victims in the 80s to 860 victims in the 90s to 940 victims in the first decade of this century. so he says one things but shows another and he neglects to point out that these incidents spiked in the 80s compared to the previous 30 years. In another article he blames the guns of today...Northeastern University criminologist James Alan Fox blames guns, at least in part. He notes that seven of the eight deadliest mass public shootings have occurred in the past 25 years. “I know that there were high-powered guns before,” he said. “But this weaponry is just so much more pervasive than it was.”in other words people are still people but their guns are getting too big for the rest of us to bear(my editorial comment) These also like to quote Duwe His credits include: " mass murder was just as common during the 1920s and early 1930s as it is today. The difference is that then, mass murderers tended to be failed farmers who killed their families because they could no longer provide for them, then killed themselves. Their crimes embodied the despair and hopelessness of the Dust Bowl and the Great Depression, the sense that they and their families would be better off in the hereafter than in the here and now."fathers limiting kills to their own family in a depression are much different types of crimes, though no less and maybe even more horrofic...but those types of incidents are quite different than todays problems where someone with a chip on their shoulder like Adam or the Columbine kids or the shooter in Texas decide that they've been dealt a bad hand and even the score in one fantastic display of automatic firepower.
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