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Post by helens on Jan 2, 2013 9:56:15 GMT -5
Elvis, I saw that. That guy can invoke anything he wants, if he was not being threatened (and clearly there were a lot of witnesses), he's going to jail. But after Travyon Martin, the media has been a looking for other examples of Travyon Martin. Read the article... Jordan Davis AND SEVERAL FRIENDS. If you were accosted by a whole group of people, you may feel threatened for your life. Until they conclude the investigation and talk to all witnesses, it's premature to say he did something wrong. There's nothing here so clearcut as running down and shooting a lone boy after the police dispatcher told you to stay put and wait for the police. What about Bernard Geotz in NYC? A single guy on a subway was attacked by 4 teenagers, with criminal records, whom ADMITTED in court they were going to rob him, and some tried not to testify! He happened to have an illegal gun. He shot and seriously wounded them. Guess who went to jail? Not the teens who may have murdered him... but him. You know what tho? He was alive. Something that could not be said for a lot of people shot by 100% illegal guns in NYC. But WHY should he have gone to jail? One of my best friends from Jr High is today a paramedic in NYC. We have argued and argued and argued about politics through the entire election cycle. NYC is VERY Democrat, and most paramedics and medical personnel appear to be VERY Republican. They get to haul and treat people shot by those 100% illegal guns. What's the benefit in trying to make guns illegal? Criminals will never give up guns. And while it may prevent some bad shootings, it would also prevent a lot of self defense. THIS is much more common in Florida than your story: www.nbcdfw.com/news/national-international/71-Year-Old-Man-Shoots-Would-Be-Robbers-at-Ocala-Internet-Cafe-Authorities-162941656.htmlIt's all on videotape you can watch too (article comes from a local Florida TV station w/ the video from the premises): 71-Year-Old Man Shoots Would-Be Robbers at Ocala Internet Cafe: Authorities Two teens tried to rob customers inside, but Samuel Williams fought back Surveillance cameras captured a botched robbery that ended with both of the armed men shot. It wasn't what they expected when they walked into an Internet cafe Friday night in Ocala, Fla. The Marion County Sheriff's Office said the two teens tried to rob the customers inside, but one man wasn't having it. In the video, you can see 71-year-old Samuel Williams fighting back. "This guy kept popping. He didn't stop,” one witness who didn’t want to be named said. “He just kept popping, so I think he shot both of them and then they managed to get out of the door and started scrambling out the door, but we were so shocked. It happened so fast that we couldn't hardly move." Williams was one of about 30 customers in the Palm Internet Cafe when the two suspects walked in. Because of him, everyone inside was safe. Those armed teens, one with a gun and one with a bat, were chased out the door. Both of them were shot. "After he started firing, they took off,” sheriff's office spokesman Judge Cochran said. “They fell on top of each other trying to get out of the café." Davis Dawkins, 19, and Duwayne Henderson, 19, stopped by the hospital on their way to jail. Both face charges of attempted robbery with a firearm and felony criminal mischief. Dawkins was released from jail Sunday on $11,000 bond, while Henderson was released Tuesday on $31,000 bond, according to the Marion County Sheriff's Office. The sheriff's office said Samuel Williams has a concealed weapons permit, and will most likely not face charges thanks to Florida's Stand Your Ground law. ______ This kind of thing happens in Florida all the time. Here's a grandma who shot a robber in the face: abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/10/robber-shot-in-eye-during-struggle-with-grandma/Robber Shot in Eye During Struggle With Grandma A robber was shot in the eye by his own gun during a struggle with a feisty Florida grandmother. Teresa Martin, 50, said she was alarmed by a “loud, crashing” noise early Saturday morning at her Tampa home. “I thought my roommate had gotten up and stumbled into something,” she told ABCNews.com. ” I got off my bed and the next thing I knew, my bedroom door flew open and there was a man standing there with a gun pointed directly at my face.” That man was identified by police as Leonard Porter, 34. “He said, ‘ I know you have money.’ He kept insisting, ‘I know there’s money,’” Martin said. When she told him she had none, she said the suspect grabbed her by the hair, threw her on the bed and said, “Bitch, you’re fixin’ to die!” “The next thing I know, I heard him cock the gun and I saw his hand on the trigger. I started thinking about my granddaughter and my son,” Martin said.” I decided I was going to go to town and not go out with out a fight.” Martin started kicking and punching. A few seconds later, the suspect was on the floor, bleeding from a gunshot wound to the eye. _______________________ Should these people have died or gone to prison for surviving, as Bernard Goetz did for defending himself from criminals with long records? Because that's the result of gun control. People who survive being attacked then getting sent to prison for surviving. That's what happens in NYC, a gun control state, where there's PLENTY of guns, but it's ALL in the hands of criminals. These are 2 of even more stories in Florida this past year alone. It's MUCH less likely for ordinary people to become statistics in Florida, or school children to be mass murdered. And to make it clear, I obviously voted Democrat. The overwhelming idiocy of today's Republican Party makes even an issue I'm passionate about, gun rights, pale next to their desire to kill off disabled, elderly and the poor. If the Democrats just got OFF of this pointless and just WRONG platform, people would not be forced to philosophically choose between their finances and their rights.
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chassroc
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Post by chassroc on Jan 2, 2013 10:21:29 GMT -5
Charlie what are you gonna do when a couple of 6"4 250 muscle crack apes kick in your door and want your family and all your money and decide to use your family as a punching bag maybe a little loving . you gonna call the union or the aclu ? No your gonna think if i had a gun I could stop this . are you going to be on the cross or the nailer ? I have been a gun owner since 74 never hurt anybody .... wake up its not a safe world .I will pray for you and family to stay safe .....C'mon guys...you gotta stop the knee jerk reactions and actually read and understand what I post... I said there is a time and place for everything. I want guns removed from public gatherings but i said nothing about what you or anyone else does in their own home. Still ...I dont know you or anyone else on this forum well enough to say 'Go ahead and protect my children. Pleases bring your guns into my school' And ...if I did decide to call the union??? or the ACLU? I dont see how or where it is any of your business who I call... ok ...I CONFESS...I actually would have to call the union...my local police are doing very well in their union and are showing no signs of leaving it any time soon.
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Jan 2, 2013 11:01:16 GMT -5
Hey, I respect anyone's right to choose to be a victim. I think it's stupid, but again, that's your choice. Just be aware though, that's exactly what you are volunteering for. When it's time to call the police, it's already to late. They try to catch the bad guys "after" you have been victimized. Yes, even in Canada Elvis. They are helpless "until a crime has been committed". It's foolish to think the police are there to protect you when simply, they are not. They might save the next victim by catching the guy who has victimized you but if you're dead, this don't help you one bit. Your first line of defense and your quickest response is you and you only. If you think otherwise, you are not a rational thinker, especially if you live any distance from a police department like most rural folks do....Mel
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herchenx
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Post by herchenx on Jan 2, 2013 12:24:21 GMT -5
This "removal of guns from public gathering" is precisely what enables these devastating incidents. The one guy (aka "lone gunman") who wants to kill knows there is a high probability that no one there will have a gun, which is why they target these types of gatherings. Aurora, CO - movie theater was a gun free zone. Elementary school was a gun free zone. contrast that with the San Antonio shooting where an armed off-duty cop stopped the shooting with a gun: www.snopes.com/politics/guns/sanantonio.aspYou could argue "well that was a cop, they should be armed" but it could just as easily have been a private citizen who was armed. You can't - really - absolutely trust anyone, so taking personal responsibility for those whose it is your duty to protect is the best chance any of us has of guaranteeing the safety of those who trust us with their safety. I don't concealed carry, I don't have the permit to do so, but enough folks around here do that I have some level of confidence that in most circumstances (except at schools, movie theaters and a business or two) that someone would be armed to at least pose a threat to a would-be psycho.
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bushmanbilly
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Post by bushmanbilly on Jan 2, 2013 22:22:31 GMT -5
This is a case that is on going in Ontario. This is what you folks can expect if gun control gets passed. This is what happens when Liberals are in power for to long!!! And having a electoral system that is an uneven playin field for all. On Tuesday, Ontario provincial judge Tory Colvin suspended until May the trial of Ian Thomson, the Port Colborne, Ont., man charged with unsafe storage of firearms after he fired three warning shots at assailants who were firebombing his home in the summer of 2010. Both the Crown and the defence had presented their closing arguments in the case, but Judge Colvin decided to give each side more time to produce precedents that supported their divergent interpretations of what constitutes “safe storage.” He also admitted he needed more time himself to review the case law. It shouldn’t be this difficult, but it is, in large part because the Liberals intentionally wrote the 1995 Firearms Act to be as ambiguous as possible and give prosecutors as big a net as possible in which to ensnare gun owners. Their intention was to make gun ownership as complicated and onerous as possible so as to encourage owners to give up their firearms. For instance, the Canadian Firearms Program, run by the RCMP, instructs gun owners to “unload and lock all firearms,” when not in use. That seems clear enough. When not hunting, target shooting or killing vermin, gun owners should remove the ammunition from their guns and “attach a secure locking device, such as a trigger lock or cable lock,” or “lock the firearms in a container or room that is hard to break into.” But is cleaning or repairing the firearm a legitimate “use?” Most judges have ruled that cleaning constitutes use when such cases have come to court, yet police forces across the country — and particularly in Ontario — continue to lay unsafe storage charges against owners whose guns are found out of their safes or locked cabinets, even though they are dismantled for cleaning on a workbench or kitchen table.In Mr. Thomson’s case, the uncertainty revolves around the interpretation of whether or not he was storing the ammunition for his guns too close to the registered pistols he had locked in a gun safe. The Crown contends that because Mr. Thomson was able to gather up both a gun and its ammunition in less than a minute, then fire three warning shots at the masked men lobbing Molotov cocktails at his remote home, that the ammunition was too “easily accessible” and, therefore, by definition, unsafely stored.This is angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin territory and utterly preposterous. Mr. Thomson’s lawyer, Ed Burlew, who specializes in firearms law and has argued more than 600 firearms cases says he has never before heard such a theory of safe storage. It defies reason. But this is far from the first preposterous safe-storage case. Perhaps the most notorious example of police and Crown overzealousness in enforcing Canada’s existing gun laws is the case of Mike Hargreaves, a former Toronto-area gun-safety instructor and collector. Over the Christmas holidays in 2003, while Mr. Hargreaves was visiting his son in Florida, thieves worked to open the 770 kilogram concrete and steel safe he had had installed in his north Toronto apartment. For nearly two days, burglars used sledgehammers and blowtorches to open the vault, before they could make off with 35 high-powered handguns and rifles worth more than $40,000.Still, police decided the precautions Mr. Hargreaves had taken to protect his collection were inadequate. They obtained a warrant for his arrest on unsafe storage charges, which forced him to remain in Florida to avoid prosecution.What is or isn’t “safe storage” has become so ambiguous that police and prosecutors now use this provisions to harass otherwise law-abiding gun owners, who are guilty of no other offence. Is it enough to have one’s firearms locked away in a gun safe or must they also have trigger locks installed? How secure must the safe’s lock be: Strong enough to keep a thief out for two minutes? Five? Fifteen? Two days? Is it OK to store ammunition in the same safes as guns, or must bullets and shells be in separate safes from one’s firearms? Must the two safes be in separate rooms? We hope the judge in Mr. Thomson’s case can clear up some of this confusion and ambiguity. But what is really needed is a wholesale amendment of the safe-storage laws. Gun owners need to know what their obligations are with clarity and certainty. And the purpose of any safe-storage reforms must be simply to ensure firearms pose no threat to children or the community when they are not being used. There should be no hidden goal to complicate gun owners’ lives so that they give up shooting sports in frustration. National Post fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/02/01/lorne-gunter-canadas-laws-on-the-safe-storage-of-firearms-need-clarifying/
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Post by helens on Jan 2, 2013 23:19:16 GMT -5
Try again Billy, we are wailing about this, but there are PLENTY of Democrats who feel the way I do, including the President of the US, who can't politically admit it again right after a mass shooting. It's the far left fringe who do not. What does that mean? It ain't going to happen in the US (except the individual states who already have it).
That doesn't mean that gigantic magazine sales may not be curbed, but what normal person needs a gigantic magazine anyway if they're not in a gang and want to show off?
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bushmanbilly
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Post by bushmanbilly on Jan 2, 2013 23:29:00 GMT -5
Try again Billy, we are wailing about this, but there are PLENTY of Democrats who feel the way I do, including the President of the US, who can't politically admit it again right after a mass shooting. It's the far left fringe who do not. What does that mean? It ain't going to happen in the US (except the individual states who already have it). That doesn't mean that gigantic magazine sales may not be curbed, but what normal person needs a gigantic magazine anyway if they're not in a gang and want to show off? Helen i agree with you. There are a lot of liberals up here that are against it to. But they voted like sheep not going against the party lines. As for Barry being against gun control. I have some beach front property for ya in Saskatchewan. Cheap!!
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darstcreek77
has rocks in the head
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Post by darstcreek77 on Jan 3, 2013 7:32:55 GMT -5
Charlie what are you gonna do when a couple of 6"4 250 muscle crack apes kick in your door and want your family and all your money and decide to use your family as a punching bag maybe a little loving . you gonna call the union or the aclu ? No your gonna think if i had a gun I could stop this . are you going to be on the cross or the nailer ? I have been a gun owner since 74 never hurt anybody .... wake up its not a safe world .I will pray for you and family to stay safe .....C'mon guys...you gotta stop the knee jerk reactions and actually read and understand what I post... I said there is a time and place for everything. I want guns removed from public gatherings but i said nothing about what you or anyone else does in their own home. Still ...I dont know you or anyone else on this forum well enough to say 'Go ahead and protect my children. Pleases bring your guns into my school' And ...if I did decide to call the union??? or the ACLU? I dont see how or where it is any of your business who I call... ok ...I CONFESS...I actually would have to call the union...my local police are doing very well in their union and are showing no signs of leaving it any time soon. Knee jerk reaction.... all the dems and that fine President the unions elected reacted we neede this and that who needs a gun that shoots 20 rounds ( who needs a bmw that can go 160 mph) If more people carried legally rubys might not have happened , sandy point school might not have happened ! As Mel said call the police after it happened is not going to help you or your family . the 1800s is an example an armed public is a polite public . that 240 mythed muscle bound ape will not care if you theaten him with "I am calling the cops" But you crank off a round in his chest that will get his attention .If its at your home or in a lubys or walkin your grand children to the park . As far as you donot know us well enough to have your children around us when we are armed in your school,, fair enough,, sandy point is a good example of your how well your thought process works . no guns no one is harmed ....1 person at the right time and place with a gun ,bat, knive or a a frozen rabbitt and all those children would have enjoyed Christmas .... blame the person who did the unthinkable crime ......
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chassroc
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Post by chassroc on Jan 3, 2013 8:46:17 GMT -5
Yes knee jerk reaction...
you can try to turn it around on someone else, but that wont work with me.
And the example you pick...the president, is ludicrous. He has been president for four years and not gun ownership has mushroomed. you should be kissing his toes for what he has done for you
As for blame, have you seen anyone on this forum blame you or any other anonymous gun owner. I have not. The fellow who did the shooting is quite dead. No one is blaming you. You are not the martyr here. You are not the victim.
We are sick and tired of these incidents. They do not occur anywhere else in the world but the USA in the kind of frequency we see in our country. The number of people killed by guns in the USA should be an embarrassment to us all. And it is not getting better as gun ownership proliferates. It is getting worse.
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Jan 3, 2013 9:16:33 GMT -5
" They do not occur anywhere in the world except the US." *LOL* Oh come on Charlie. these kind of incidents, often perpetrated by their own governments, happen all over the world in countries with gun control. Dissidents, people of the wrong faith, people of the wrong political party, people who speak out against government are wholesale slaughtered all the time in countries with an unarmed citizenry and crazies kill folks all the time too whether the country has guns or not.
Jeez, you are so full of cr*p. Are you unable to read a newspaper where you live? And PS Charlie, When you attempt to take lawfully owned guns from non criminal gun owners and leave them at the mercy of armed criminals, you are defacto blaming them and punishing them for the actions of a few crazies while doing not a dang thing to criminals and loonies. And dang it, I blame Obama for not being able to find my ammo in any stores *L* Everyone I usually buy from is sold out.
Tell you what Charlie. Here's a simple test for just you. ( simple is the word cause you don't seem to get reality at all) Pick any city in the US with strong gun control ie Chicago. DC etc. Then tape a hundred dollar bill to your forehead and go for a walk after dark. See how safe you feel during your outing and get back to us, if you're still alive that is. I 'm sure by then you'll be back in touch with reality *L*....Mel
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chassroc
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Post by chassroc on Jan 3, 2013 9:55:45 GMT -5
Mel,
Can you please cool it with the personal insults? I believe we have been down this road before
Charlie
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grayfingers
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Post by grayfingers on Jan 3, 2013 10:29:59 GMT -5
Charlie, actually, I think you are getting rather tempered responses. Especially when one considers historically speaking, there are three things that belong to a man that one does not mess with, his wife, his horse or his gun. You are fortunate that you have not received the same response that Boehnher gave to Harry Reid at the White House a few day ago concerning his comment about his leadership style.
Bill
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bushmanbilly
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Post by bushmanbilly on Jan 3, 2013 13:39:54 GMT -5
What do you expect Charlie. You call us racists, but when some of us cut you down, you whine.
Don't know if this is true, all I can say if it is. Way to go girl!!! Gun Control Texas Style!
Last Thursday night around midnight, a woman from Houston , Texas was ...arrested, jailed, and charged with manslaughter for shooting a man 6 times in the back as he was running away with her purse.
The following Monday morning, the woman was called in front of the Arraignment Judge, sworn-in, and asked to explain her actions.
The woman replied, "I was standing at the corner bus stop for about 15 minutes, waiting for the bus to take me home after work. I am a waitress at a local cafe. I was there alone, so I had my right hand on my pistol in my purse hanging on my left shoulder. All of a sudden I was spun around hard to my left. As I caught my balance, I saw a man running away with my purse. I looked down at my right hand and saw that my fingers were wrapped tightly around my pistol. The next thing I remember is saying out loud, "No Way Punk! You're not stealing my pay check and tips." I raised my right hand, pointed my pistol at the man running away from me with my purse, and started squeezing the trigger of my pistol.
When asked by the arraignment judge, "Why did you shoot the man 6 times? The woman replied under oath, "Because, when I pulled the trigger the 7th time, it only went click."
The woman was acquitted of all charges. She was back at work the next day! That's Gun Control, Texas Style
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fmelvis
starting to spend too much on rocks
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Post by fmelvis on Jan 3, 2013 14:02:11 GMT -5
A little humor to lighten the mood,
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Jan 3, 2013 15:15:27 GMT -5
*L* You know what Charlie, I'm a very direct kind of guy and flat out, you annoy the Hell out of me. Were we face to face and were I not posting in a public forum, you'd hear from me or most any other gun owner ( in words much less civil) what we really think about folks like you. Every anti-gun post you make, we consider an attack on our constitutional rights under the 2nd amendment and a personal affront as you are lumping us folks who enjoy shooting and own guns, jump through all the hoops to buy them legally, and use them responsibly, with crazies and criminals who do not.
You've got your right to make whatever comments you like ( a right, by the way, guaranteed by the constitution and fought for and protected by men with guns) but folks don't have to like what you have to say. In my book, you go against the constitution and lump legal gun owners with criminals and crazies by supporting law changes that threaten our rights, you are being unAmeircan, annoying and a dumbass to boot. Like Sam Elliot said, folks like you are a special kind of stupid. I'd say a dangerous kind of stupid because you support and accept only those constitutional rights that fit your point of view. So, in the mildest manner possible and with a great big ole Texas grin, I'd like to exercise my constitutional right to free speech and suggest you K. M. T. A. just as I'd do if we were face to face....Mel
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fmelvis
starting to spend too much on rocks
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Post by fmelvis on Jan 3, 2013 15:39:12 GMT -5
sorry bushman, that story is pure BS. Funny though. Check snopes.com.
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bushmanbilly
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Post by bushmanbilly on Jan 3, 2013 15:47:29 GMT -5
I believe you that it not true. But don't take snoops word for everything!
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Jan 3, 2013 16:41:39 GMT -5
Billy: Don't know if the story is true or not but if it was night time, Texas law allows one to shoot a fleeing criminal in that sort of instance.
Section 9.42 Use of deadly force to protect property. I'll shorten it so I don't have to type so much. The section seems to applies to many crimes from murder to sexual assault to theft or even damage to property.
(2)
A. It is justified to use deadly force to prevent the commission of a robbery or theft during night time.
B. It is justifiable to use deadly force if the other is fleeing a theft or robbery at night time.
The "night time" was probably included because in the dark you can't tell if a robber is armed or not.
And believe me these sections list a lot of other reasons you can use deadly force too, including in some situations trespass. Trespassing is a super bad idea in Texas and man oh man, do not sneak around a house or attempt a burglary at night.
There are also things about disparity of size, physical ability etc. So in Texas, young strong folks should not mess with old timers, cripples , weaklings, or gals cause they can blow them away.
All that being said though, if the story had been true, in daytime that shooting might have been iffy but in Texas, a gal could most likely get away with shooting a guy in flight from a robbery because in Texas, property is pretty sacred and so are women.
I myself like the latitude given to folks to protect themselves and their property in Texas but really, unless I was immediately threatened with physical harm, I'd not want to live with shooting someone over a few bucks even though being robbed would tend to piss me off. Plus, you cold be sued by the guy's family or if the guy survived because I think out instructor said civil suits are not prevented by the law unless you are first tried and aquitted....Mel
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Post by Rockoonz on Jan 3, 2013 20:36:01 GMT -5
Found something educational on the topic. Yeah, it's a few minutes but it presents some information that the "news" media could use to be more accurate, they do want to be accurate, riight?
Lee
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Post by cpdad on Jan 3, 2013 21:18:30 GMT -5
mel...i used to think that a few bucks wasnt worth it either....i grew up poor...still am ;D...but...i bought my first mobile home...all be it a nice one...and a piece of land at 25...the neighborhood went to junk in a few years...had my tires stolen off my car...lawn mowers stolen....and finally they broke inside and stole whatever they could take. sold the land and bought my townhouse in a much better neighborhood....all was fine for fifteen years....then one day ex goes outside and finds the window busted out of the vehicle....she had her purse behind the passengers seat on the floor....and my wallet was in it...along with all her stuff...sure she should not of had it there. after having to do all the bank stuff with checks....credit cards...debit cards...social security cards...etc....took months. after that..i made up my mind that if one comes onto my property to steal or even think about entering my home...i am going to shoot them....and with all intentions of killing them....if i have the chance....and i would expect the same for a family member if they were a thief. as said before wish this guy was a better shot....glad he had his AR-15. chronicle.augusta.com/news/crime-courts/2012-08-09/gun-shop-owner-kills-suspected-burglar-injures-two-otherswent to buy more shells for the shotguns yesterday....we shot off a ton for new years eve...just for the noise .....they had none....shelfs were bare of all ammo....waiting on shipments i was told . co worker asked me if i wanted to split a 1000 rounds with him....differant ammo ;D....cause he found the same thing 1 town over.....no ammo...i said sure....he found this...sent me the link....kev. www.ammoman.com/StoreClosed.htm
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