droseraguy
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Member since April 2012
Posts: 426
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Post by droseraguy on Aug 30, 2013 17:39:51 GMT -5
Ok, here is my rant....
Why does it seem to me that the guys that are doing well, pay their bills on time, have good credit and all that jazz get the short end of the stick out there ?
The kid qualifies for some help but not nearly enough to cover. By help I mean Stafford loans so its not like he gets free money. I paid for the Freshman year, he took the Soph year. Now this year all the requirements are jacked up. The ex and her new hubby make a lot more than I do yet they can't qualify for good enough to pass the credit check. (getting them to cosign is another story for a later date)
He's a good kid with ok grades. Does not fit into any special category for aid. When I graduated I had like 10000 in loans to pay after 4 years. Now days it's 21000 a year. Don't want a handout, just want the ability to get a loan without getting my blood pressure through the roof. This whole thing should have been done a heluva long time ago. But it won't go away....
I am thankful for the fact that I have a great wife whose back surgery was finally approved and successful, food on the table, a good roof, a 13 year old 4 banger that runs, and a semi-working air conditioner. I'm happy that we can help my step kids out of finacially troubling times and still keep the lights on here. Life is good what am I griping about. I guess the fact that not many seem to notice the change that has occurred in this country. I am entitled to no more than what I work for and that is what we get. Unless... Sorry I digress, must go back to work so that I can support my family and those that need my taxes to help with their schooling.
Sorry to complain here but it was coming. Think I'll go cut some rocks and pack a care package for a guy that paid a lot more that myself just so that I can gripe about money. Keep it all in perspective.
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Sabre52
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Me and my gal, Rosie
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Post by Sabre52 on Aug 30, 2013 18:11:40 GMT -5
It is a changed world. I used to help train the new young biologists that came into our department and was appalled when they told me how much debt they had left over from college. When I went to school back in the stone age, tuition was about $40 per quarter and I could barely afford that. If costs were what they are today, I'd never have even been able to go to college.I think kids today really need to weigh the costs and benefits of a college degree, or, at the very least be very careful what degree they choose to pursue. I spent five years in college and two working for a research foundation to wind up in a profession where I made less than 50K on my best year. Never would have been able to pay back big college loans had I had them. Best advice I could give a parent is, if your child wants college and needs loans, check out what you are really paying for. If it's philosophy or history or English Lit or some non marketable degree, your kid will either have to work in another field or spend all their life paying back loans from a low salary job. One must consider financial risk vs possible employment rewards.
As an example, both my wife and I have Biology degrees and post grad work. I worked in biology and she went out of her degree field and went to work for a power company and wound up a Jr exec. After a very few years, she way passed me up in salary and by retirement was making twice my pay and when she did retire, she got a huge package while my retirement is quite small. Choice of field is the most important choice you'll make in life and if a student is not studying for a highly marketable degree, it would be better to choose a good paying trade rather than that 100K college degree that gets you a job paying like a fry cook at Maccy D's......Mel
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Post by helens on Aug 30, 2013 19:03:41 GMT -5
I started paying for my kids colleges the first year they were born, because I knew that it was going to cost WAY more when it was time for them to go. Most states have a prepaid plan or a 529 plan. I can't fathom why parents don't plan for this when they are pregnant, you KNOW it's coming, and if they don't use the $$, they have Grad school paid for instead.
I'm sorry that this is hitting you now... the student loan crisis in this nation is just crazy. And this is part of the reason we are losing doctors every day, who can afford tuition to be a doctor, they wouldn't get out of loan debt til they are 50 these days.
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Aug 30, 2013 20:18:05 GMT -5
Helen, I never had kids but wouldn't parents have too be pretty well off to put enough in a 529 at these days earnings rates too build a 100,000 bucks for college for one child? My folks both worked, my pop two jobs, and they could barely afford to take a little camping trip vacation every year. I expect, in this economy, most parents with kids are mostly concerned with keeping the kids fed and a roof over their heads. Not to mention saving for their own retirement...Mel
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Post by helens on Aug 30, 2013 20:33:45 GMT -5
Helen, I never had kids but wouldn't parents have too be pretty well off to put enough in a 529 at these days earnings rates too build a 100,000 bucks for college for one child? My folks both worked, my pop two jobs, and they could barely afford to take a little camping trip vacation every year. I expect, in this economy, most parents with kids are mostly concerned with keeping the kids fed and a roof over their heads. Not to mention saving for their own retirement...Mel I'm sure it differs by state, but if you do prepaid, you LOCK IN the tuition the moment you sign up. So that means that you pay tuition at today's rates for something that will be fully paid 18 years down the road. College prices never ever come down, just inflation makes this true... and in our case, I think tuition was raised 6x in those 18 years or so to quadruple what it was when we started. I don't remember the exact amounts now, but I think when I started paying, it was under $200 a month for both my kids together for 18 years. When my older son was done, I only had to pay for my little one and it was under $100. We have had VERY little inflation, so $200 today is barely worth more than $200 20 years ago. We went prepaid... I told you we were middle class, I did not marry a rich guy I married for love. There was no way we could send our kids to Georgetown or Harvard. IF our kids wanted to go, the grades they had to have to get in meant they'd be able to get scholarships to cover the difference. If you have kids, it's a great great idea. If for whatever reason your kids choose not to go to college, or get full scholarships, they get to keep the money to apply towards a house or car or grad school. If they go out of state, they can get the money and use it to pay tuition out of state, covering the difference out of pocket/loan/scholarship. They never lose the money. If you drop dead, the money is THEIRS, it can't be taken away from your minor children by divorce, death, disability, creditors. Plus, if for whatever reason something terrible happens, you drop dead, you cannot pay anymore... the tuition is STILL LOCKED at the sign in rate, you just have to pick up paying again so long as the child hasn't graduated HS. So he/she can borrow the money to FINISH paying off the plan... for a tuition price set 18 years ago when the plan began, instead of borrowing to pay TODAY's tuition rate. In most states, that's less than 1/4 of today's price, just for starting that account for them (check the laws for that in YOUR state, that was true for us then, I don't know if even Florida changed it - otherwise, you can open an account for $200, and not pay again til they are 18 and save tens of thousands on what it would cost then).
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robsrockshop
has rocks in the head
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Post by robsrockshop on Sept 2, 2013 21:12:40 GMT -5
Here's an idea......if the gov't didn't hand out loans like it were cheap candy then maybe tuition wouldn't so damn high in the first place. And what kinda of idiot would buy into 'let's spend billions and give every kid a college education' Seriously? What would be the competitive advantage to that? A bunch of degreed burger flippers oh boy. Like everything else the gov't touches it's been ruined.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2013 23:38:34 GMT -5
The days of a college education being special and profitable ended about 15 years ago. Nobody noticed. Until now.
I had a customer. He grew up from High Skool to getting and MBA while I knew him/family. Got an MBA and had $250K in debt. Top 5% of his class at (I forget, northeastern) university. Working McD's and wasn't making enough to cover interest payments on the student loan. Free money and the overvalued education, plus lack of downward market pressure on price caused the current problem.
Plenty of kids with English, liberal studies, or history degrees. So many that not enough teaching positions exist to support the numbers. What can they do with those bulls\t degrees?
Kidlet will go to university. She is forbidden from taking a loan. I told her today, "when you come home from college you won;t know our house anymore. We moved".
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bushmanbilly
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Post by bushmanbilly on Sept 2, 2013 23:42:33 GMT -5
I think you folks are crazy to send your kids to college or university. Here is a good example from to friends of mine kids.
One kid is going to university for a business degree and the other to a trade school for welding.
The welder works for 9 months a year and goes to school for 3 months. This goes on for 4 years. He started out at $20 an hour. Every time he finish a year of work and school he gets a raise. Plus most employers will pay the tuition. After 4 years he is making $40 plus an hour. Very little if any debt. And is driving a new pickup with all kinds of toys strapped in the back. and is looking to buy a house.
The other kid goes to school for 9 months and works for 3. Picks up a crappy $12 to $15 per hour job every year with no raise. After 4 years he has a $80,000 debt. Still driving the beater that dad bought for him. And then is lucky to find a job in the field he studied. And if he does he might make $20 an hour. Plus another 5 to 10 years paying off debt. With no house.
Like I tell my kid. Suck it up get your hands dirty and make good money. You will be happier and better off in life.
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droseraguy
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Post by droseraguy on Sept 3, 2013 8:06:28 GMT -5
Thanks for everyones perspectives here. I guess there are several paths to end up getting where you want to be. The boy is going for linguistics, so he will be able to teach all those folks where ever he chooses to live how to speak english. I told him the only people that don't speak english are the ones that choose not to at this point in history but I digress. Maybe he will be able to understand the derogatory comments that are being said when someone rings him up or something like that. So far it's Russian, Swaheli and Arabic, with his political leanings it will only take a little while before he comes back to the right side when he can fully understand what is being said.
I did look into the 529 a long time ago but was not able to put any money towards anything but bills. I went into horticulture because I "loved" it at a very bad time in the industry. Now I do something completely unrelated for a smaller pharma that actually helps folks that need it. 15 years of working off shifts and all that jazz. Didn't have a 401 till not too long ago when it was way to late to start saving. Finally when you can start funding a 529 it won't grow enough to matter and by that time you're bumped up into the bracket that says you don't need a Perkins or Stafford loan. Catch 22 it seems to me. His mother and I only made it 7 years before I couldn't take it any longer. She to this day works a minimum wage job and "likes" what she does. Good for her but it only pays for the decorations in her new 4 bedroom empty house. We're both happy not to be around each other anymore. Maybe if she would have put some of the child support away that was given to her for the last 15 years it would have helped. I'm not bitter, just irritated that I seem to be funding alot more in this country than my own mess which I'll happily fight my way out of. If Joe somebodys kid can get a reasonable interest rate loan and mine can't beacause momma's new hubby makes a boat load but won't help with tuition it ticks me off. Just the way things are going and I can't say I like it.
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Sept 3, 2013 9:08:31 GMT -5
Wow my example parallels Billy's second example so closely it's amazing. My folk's gift to me for college was abut $1200 they had been able to save in bonds. They had that much for me and the same for my sister. Said we could use it for braces or school. My sister got braces and married rich, I kept crooked teeth and used mine for college and like in Billy's example, I went to school nine months a year and worked low paying jobs ( $1.25-$4.00 per hour back then) every vacation, holiday etc. I also worked part time during college. At one point a lab in a cannery I was working for summers offered me a good salaried job but I just had to have the fancy degree *L*. Stupid stupid stupid!
When I graduated I soon faced the reality that there are a lot of biologists and not many biology jobs, especially if you don't want to teach and were white and male. Those were the days of racial parity and if you were white and male, went to an interview for a government job, you had better pray there would be no females or especially black females at the interview because if there were, you were screwed, no matter how well qualified. At some places I applied, 2000 biologists were applying for two jobs. I was briefly sidetracked by a stint in the army and after I got back I applied everywhere while again working part time at fairly low wages for a research foundation.
After a long search and God knows how many exams and applications and interviews I finally landed a job as a wildlife guy for an Agricultural Dept as a "Biologist Trainee". This required two more years of tests and certifications while I made lousy pay as my hard earned biology degree was not in "Agricultural Biology'. Also had to take a special mail order course from the State Of California to get certification in Economic Entomology as my college had not offered that course. All this rewarded me with a cool sounding and interesting, but low paying, job I worked at till retirement. Our 401K was not offered till just a few years before I retired so did very little good at all. *L*.
Like Billy's story, the point of this long tale is: These days it's probably much better to go into a trade direct from high school unless you pick exactly the right college degree. Lets face it, a lot of kids go to college to play and get junk degrees at great expense to their parents and often destroying their parents' financial security for their retirement years. Parents, do not let this happen! If I had kids, I'd demand they present me with a cost analysis showing how many jobs were available in their field of choice and what they would pay vs cost of the degree. If it did not look good, no college and off to a lucrative trade......Mel
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2013 10:52:36 GMT -5
In my case kidlet is going to trade school. University is trade school, if ya wanna be an MD.
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bushmanbilly
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Post by bushmanbilly on Sept 3, 2013 11:57:06 GMT -5
I think you folks are crazy to send your kids to college or university. Here is a good example from to friends of mine kids. One kid is going to university for a business degree and the other to a trade school for welding. The welder works for 9 months a year and goes to school for 3 months. This goes on for 4 years. He started out at $20 an hour. Every time he finish a year of work and school he gets a raise. Plus most employers will pay the tuition. After 4 years he is making $40 plus an hour. Very little if any debt. And is driving a new pickup with all kinds of toys strapped in the back. and is looking to buy a house. The other kid goes to school for 9 months and works for 3. Picks up a crappy $12 to $15 per hour job every year with no raise. After 4 years he has a $80,000 debt. Still driving the beater that dad bought for him. And then is lucky to find a job in the field he studied. And if he does he might make $20 an hour. Plus another 5 to 10 years paying off debt. With no house. Like I tell my kid. Suck it up get your hands dirty and make good money. You will be happier and better off in life. I forgot to add the welder is also his own boss now. Self employed small business owner. The business degree was free for him.
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Post by helens on Sept 3, 2013 14:32:52 GMT -5
Good variety of viewpoints. I think it depends on the kid... some kids have an aptitude for mechanical/physical skills, and some don't. You can't really predict that ahead of time, or force your child to study what they don't have interest in.
I have been thinking about that lately... the idea that over the next 50 years, skilled labor will become even more necessary and valuable than today. And even today, many skilled positions are paying more than 'white collar' office jobs, ie, plumbers, electricians, mechanics.
If they like working with their hands, I agree that it's far better to get the early start in life with a lifelong 'skill', than just spend money on a degree you probably won't use.
Even for white collar, nursing, radiologists, x-ray techs, hematologists, etc are often only 2 year trade school degrees. I know with nurses, they can sometimes make more than doctors!
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Post by bobby1 on Sept 5, 2013 17:58:43 GMT -5
My frustration with the education system is that they don't focus on the students aptitude and skills. When a freshman starts high school the total focus of the education system is on that students path to graduation from college. In actuality most of them will not graduate from a four college. They end up graduating from high school with little or no job skills or job prospects beyond flipping burgers (if the illegals haven't already squeezed them out of these positions). There should be much more emphasis on job skills in the service sector like automotive technology especially with the exponential growth in complexity of today's cars. But it isn't really surprising that the education systems business is selling advanced education even if it is in dead end occupations. Bob
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Sept 5, 2013 19:56:22 GMT -5
My major complaint with college was the general education requirement. You go to school with a particular major to train for a particular skill, yet they make you take 2/3 of your classes that are general education junk outside your major. Far as I can tell this is just to provide job security to the doofus professors teaching junk like art appreciation, Philosophy, political science, sociology etc. Hey, it was me working my ass off to pay for the education so why should not all my classes be applied to all the fields needed to sharpen my skills? Why should my time be wasted on non applicable studies?
As it turned out, I finished school, then had to do grad lab work and work for a research outfit, then later go back to school and study to get all the stuff I had missed in college because of having to waste 2/3 of m class units on general ed crap. College, since its so expensive and since it is "higher education" needs to be more directed to turn out a student job ready, expert on his particular field, and ready to hit the ground running. College as it is now, is just a money machine racket, designed more to keep instructors employed than it is to actually turn out job ready workers......Mel
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Post by helens on Sept 5, 2013 22:19:18 GMT -5
Mel, most HS's don't offer art appreciation, philosophy, political science, sociology, etc. except as electives. There is no need for any kid to take those courses at all. The only requirements I know of from most HS are 4 years of English, History, Math, Science. And that's all. It gives you a broad background to make choices about what you'd like to do.
As far as I know, there ARE also electives offered at every HS for mechanics (fixing cars), Home Ec (cooking), and other trade oriented type electives. It's what the kid chooses to take. Most kids are finished with their HS requirements by 10th grade if they did Honors or Gifted programs, so their last 2 years, 11th and 12th are either AP (for college credits saving them money), or all electives, which can be trade choices.
In Florida, kids can do dual enrollment in HS for free. That is a full AA degree from the local college at the time of graduation from HS if they had all their HS requirements done. They can graduate as electricians, mechanics, etc, with a 2 year trade degree if they choose that option.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2013 22:24:09 GMT -5
As far as I know, there ARE also electives offered at every HS for mechanics (fixing cars), Home Ec (cooking), and other trade oriented type electives. It's what the kid chooses to take. Most kids are finished with their HS requirements by 10th grade if they did Honors or Gifted programs, so their last 2 years, 11th and 12th are either AP (for college credits saving them money), or all electives, which can be trade choices. None of that in Cali. Here the kids graduate without even the most basic skill of balancing a check book. Hell, I still can't do it. Here they "teach for the test". Much of the state funding for schools is based on standardized testing scores. So the teachers must teach for the test to maximize funding. As an aside I have always thought it curious that exactly zero economics is taught in home economics. One would think balancing a checkbook would be taught in that exact class.
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Post by helens on Sept 5, 2013 22:29:59 GMT -5
Balancing checkbooks is in an elective here called 'life sciences'. They teach that, plus force you to pick an income and then show a weekly budget for how you allocate your income. Ie., if you live in a 2 br apt, your rent is x, a 4 br house, rent is x... which do you live in? And then force you to try to balance your set amount budget so you know what you have left for utilities, food, travel, clothes, etc. It forces you to see what you'd have to give up to squander your limited resources.
Both my kids got a lot out of that class... and I THINK it was mandatory here (they both took it).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2013 22:30:56 GMT -5
Balancing checkbooks is in an elective here called 'life sciences'. They teach that, plus force you to pick an income and then show a weekly budget for how you allocate your income. Ie., if you live in a 2 br apt, your rent is x, a 4 br house, rent is x... which do you live in? And then force you to try to balance your set amount budget so you know what you have left for utilities, food, travel, clothes, etc. It forces you to see what you'd have to give up to squander your limited resources. Both my kids got a lot out of that class... and I THINK it was mandatory here (they both took it). California sucks. Good for your kids.
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Sept 6, 2013 13:25:22 GMT -5
Helen: I was complaining about colleges. It says so in my post if you'd pay attention. Kids don't pay for educational units when attending high school. That's why I was complaining about college. Costs students a lot of money and time for general ed courses that are useless when you go looking for a job....Mel
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