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Post by parfive on Jun 18, 2014 20:07:58 GMT -5
In LuluLand, global warming stopped in 1998.* Meanwhile, back on Planet Earth . . . April, 2014 . . . oops, hottest April on record. May, 2014 . . . oops, hottest May on record. June, 2014 . . . we’re workin’ on it : ) ds.data.jma.go.jp/tcc/tcc/products/gwp/temp/may_wld.html* Don’t ask how something that didn’t exist . . . could stop.
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Post by jakesrocks on Jun 18, 2014 20:16:21 GMT -5
Rich's motto sounds like he's talking about global warming, Er, climate change.
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gemfeller
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Post by gemfeller on Jun 18, 2014 20:20:33 GMT -5
Sources of funding, eh? Try Naomi Oreskes in Merchants of Doubt. Instead try Dr. Tim Ball's "The Deliberate Corruption of Climate Science." He's real scientist. Oreskes is just another in a long tiresome list of tenured academic Lefties. “The Scientific Consensus on Climate Change” indeed! If you know anything at all about science you're aware it operates on openly-debated facts and experiments, not "consensus." Conversely, it welcomes attempts to disprove hypotheses and never tries to stifle opposing viewpoints as has been the case with the IPCC and the hockey-stick bunch at Penn State and East Anglia. Real science is never "settled." Her attempt to analogize rejection of Wegener's ideas about continental drift with "denial" of AGW or climate change -- whatever the butt-covering name is this month -- is absurd. She should be fired from her cushy academic job for flouting the very basis of reputable science. And talk about funding! Harvard's current endowment is in excess of $32 Billion with a "B." That'll buy a lot of Oreskes-style propaganda.
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bushmanbilly
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Post by bushmanbilly on Jun 18, 2014 20:21:34 GMT -5
Sources of funding, eh? Try Naomi Oreskes in Merchants of Doubt. The book sounded like one I would read. Until......I seen who endorsed it. Really Rich! The author of an inconvenient lie. The man who has benefited the most financially from GW. The guy who sold his TV station to Qatar. You lost me at moment. So dude he been debunked to many times to be credible.
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bushmanbilly
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Post by bushmanbilly on Jun 18, 2014 20:27:51 GMT -5
In LuluLand, global warming stopped in 1998.* Meanwhile, back on Planet Earth . . . April, 2014 . . . oops, hottest April on record. May, 2014 . . . oops, hottest May on record. June, 2014 . . . we’re workin’ on it : ) ds.data.jma.go.jp/tcc/tcc/products/gwp/temp/may_wld.html* Don’t ask how something that didn’t exist . . . could stop.I don't know what kind a planet those were taken from. Not this one. Replace hotest with coldest in there and there spot on here. Canada had one of the longest winter in memory. We have not hit 75 f here yet. Or is your graph based on Gov. scandals? If so you are right.
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bushmanbilly
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Post by bushmanbilly on Jun 18, 2014 20:45:23 GMT -5
Isn't the epa federally funded too? Not sure who their studies will reflect. All Media is bias, you can pick any topic and get conflicting stories from different sources depending on the view they wish to portray. I never said any of these issues were conclusive, I did however say that more study needed to be done and implied that these issues are not minor ones and need to be taken seriously. I also never expect the industry to be perfect but if risks do become known, shouldn't some type of preventative measures be in place to protect citizens. Like not allowing fracking wells within so far from residences or water sources. I also did a bit of digging into the individuals in the video you posted of the Congressional hearing. Found an interesting article on Elisabeth jones www.dallasnews.com/news/politics/state-politics/20110715-texas-top-oil-gas-regulator-doesnt-share-epa-worries-on-fracking.eceHarold fitch lobbied for interstate oil and gas to approve the access of oil under the great lakes. Kathleen sgamma is the vp of western energy alliance their lobbyist is former chief of staff for the house commitee on natural resources. Dr andy harris is a house rep for md, oil and gas are his third highest campaign contributors. Charles mcconnell's past private sector careers were with gasification tech counsil, clean coal tech foundation of tx, and an advisor to t&p syngas. He too had contributors, oil and gas, Thompson mineral rights trust in Colorado and energy and natural resources economic interest was his 5th highest contributor. Last but not least is holdren who co-chaired the national commission on energy policy when they addressed congress for the urge for natural gas with the clean energy action plan. Currently the north Carolina senator is co-chairman of the state energy policy commission and his top contributor is piedmont natural gas. Whether it's the media or politics everybody's got their fingers dipped in something Your right both side fingers are brown. Both sides have big money behind them. Reps have the Kock's and the Dem's have Buffet and Sorro. But the big difference is the the Republicans will not take middle east funding to stop oil and fracking like the progressive Democrates will and do. They can and do keep their distance from farms and house etc. They drill horizontally 1 or 2 miles. The only way they can get real close is if the land owner ok's it. That one link you had listed about the wells that were not fracked but were leaking. In Canada after the well is drilled, cased and cemented. A bond log has to be done before it can be perforated and fracked. This tells the Gov. that it has sufficient cement and is safe from gas migration. If the well fails this log. It has to be re cemented. Which is expensive and the cost is passed on to the cementing company. These logs are submitted to the Gov energy board for approval. Do they do this in the US?
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transcendental
spending too much on rocks
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Post by transcendental on Jun 18, 2014 21:32:58 GMT -5
True and I don't condone taking foreign interest money just as much as I don't condone taking domestic interest money. When either side takes pocket money from special interest especially politicians the legislation no longer is a representation of public opinion but of corporations willing to jeopardize their customer base for an immediate return on investment Getting a land owner to ok drilling close to their homes without full disclosure of the risks is bad business practice and morally wrong if tgere is risk to lives. Like I said more study needs to be done (preferably non biased, maybe I do live in fairy tale land wishing for that one) to assess what the risks really are and even if the chances of problems arising are minimal, they should still be disclosed. In the US, oil and gas are regulated on a state by state basis, so no not all fracking locations require bond logs but do require some type of proof of cementation but are occasionally falsely documented with no further investigations done into the stability of the wells. www.epa.gov/r5water/uic/ntwg/issue6.htmwww.logwell.com/tech/cbl/CBL_not_MIT.htmlAnother issue is unknown wells especially in the marcellus shale deposit area. Wells drilled before any regulations were imposed. Several mines have been shut down due to hazards from uncapped wells, including fires, and explosions most likely due to improper seals en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sago_Mine_disaster
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transcendental
spending too much on rocks
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Post by transcendental on Jun 18, 2014 21:48:21 GMT -5
An informed public is severely lacking in this day and age when technology is right at your fingertips. Please don't get me wrong, I'm in no way saying that fracking should be stopped. A national source of energy is great, plus all the jobs and revenue are greatly needed. I just don't think as a nation we should jeopardize our health and environments we depend upon to survive for a "quick buck" by rushing into this technology without if not fully understanding all the risks involved at least making an attempt to uncover as much data as possible and imposing proper regulations before irreparable damage is done.
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stephent
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2014
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Post by stephent on Jun 19, 2014 0:12:29 GMT -5
We have 3 natural gas wells within 1/4 mile of my place...fracting caused hundreds of small earthquakes....the injection wells where they put the nasty water back in really really deep caused several not-so-small earthquakes. I had a 4.R one day..two days later a 4.7R which will shake your eye teeth when less then one mile of epicenter...and hundreds of smaller but definitely! feel-able earthquakes...State suspended their rights to use injection wells... earthquakes pretty much stopped. But even before they were drilling in this area and everyone was sooooooo glad to get the drilling money in circulation... I warned folks about the fracting process and their water wells... water table has dropped over 75 feet locally... many wells went dry. And what wasn't dry had funny taste and smells to water. Some within 1/8 mile of the drill sites are totally unusable even for livestock or gardens. Folks tried to force state to make drillers release fracting compounds they use in the water/sand mixture they use....NO DICE! It's a proprietary method. State went hand in hand with drillers. EPA won't force the drillers to release info...it's used "deeper" then the limit on ground water chemical allowances and even though some of the chemicals have been known for years and are on the classified list as possible to known dangers...it's allowed. Biggest problem I have with the whole deal is...the mineral rights to this 5+ acres was sold off 40 years ago and I haven't got my piece of the action LOL... except earthquake action...and dozens of large driller rigs going by daily. County did force the drilling companies to fix this gravel road though after they tore it all up..it's a downright nice chip-seal smooth road now. All of which proves absolutely nothing....except money talks louder to politicians then their voters. Except we DID get the injection wells shutdown but only through starting lawsuits on the little appointed state fellers but then we are still back to the money talkin...this time it would be their own personal dollars though.. Fracting ruined the underground water here...no doubt..no question to that. It will take decades for that to heal where it's usable.
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bushmanbilly
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Post by bushmanbilly on Jun 19, 2014 0:47:09 GMT -5
We have 3 natural gas wells within 1/4 mile of my place...fracting caused hundreds of small earthquakes....the injection wells where they put the nasty water back in really really deep caused several not-so-small earthquakes. I had a 4.R one day..two days later a 4.7R which will shake your eye teeth when less then one mile of epicenter...and hundreds of smaller but definitely! feel-able earthquakes...State suspended their rights to use injection wells... earthquakes pretty much stopped. But even before they were drilling in this area and everyone was sooooooo glad to get the drilling money in circulation... I warned folks about the fracting process and their water wells... water table has dropped over 75 feet locally... many wells went dry. And what wasn't dry had funny taste and smells to water. Some within 1/8 mile of the drill sites are totally unusable even for livestock or gardens. Folks tried to force state to make drillers release fracting compounds they use in the water/sand mixture they use....NO DICE! It's a proprietary method. State went hand in hand with drillers. EPA won't force the drillers to release info...it's used "deeper" then the limit on ground water chemical allowances and even though some of the chemicals have been known for years and are on the classified list as possible to known dangers...it's allowed. Biggest problem I have with the whole deal is...the mineral rights to this 5+ acres was sold off 40 years ago and I haven't got my piece of the action LOL... except earthquake action...and dozens of large driller rigs going by daily. County did force the drilling companies to fix this gravel road though after they tore it all up..it's a downright nice chip-seal smooth road now. All of which proves absolutely nothing....except money talks louder to politicians then their voters. Except we DID get the injection wells shutdown but only through starting lawsuits on the little appointed state fellers but then we are still back to the money talkin...this time it would be their own personal dollars though.. Fracting ruined the underground water here...no doubt..no question to that. It will take decades for that to heal where it's usable. What state do you live in? Let me get this straight. Your local officials allowed the oil companies to buy water from your potable water sources. Why you pissed off at the Oil companies? Its your local politicians who are at fault for being stupid. Around here if a area does not have sufficient water supply. The oil companies drill down to a non potable water zone and use it. Plus recycling as much as possible. There is a place not to far from here where a oil company ( Apache Canada) bought the rights to a towns sewage lagoons. They are treating it and using it to frac with. . The International law for the transportation of dangerous good states that all dangerous goods must be placarded for emergency purposes. ie those numbers in them yellow or red diamonds or triangles on rail car and trucks. So you can cut the bullshit about with holding frac fluid info. Just look on the side of the trucks. Or ask for the site MSDS. Medical safety data sheet. If its on location its listed there. Send this link to your local folks. It will tell you what your wells are fracked with. There is a site like this for Canada to. fracfocus.org/
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Post by parfive on Jun 19, 2014 1:58:53 GMT -5
That sneaky bitch! Merchants of Doubt, index: no listing for Wegener, continental drift, plate tectonics.
Feel free to supply page number.
Meanwhile . . .
April, 2014 is still the hottest April on record, and May, 2014 is still the hottest May on record.
Oh, and the arsehole from the OP? He’s still a lying, disingenuous sack of shit. Be fun to round up him and Ball and Monckton all in the same vid, though - you could break the internet.
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transcendental
spending too much on rocks
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Post by transcendental on Jun 19, 2014 8:45:19 GMT -5
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stephent
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2014
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Post by stephent on Jun 19, 2014 13:48:18 GMT -5
The gas drillers didn't drill water wells around for the fracting/drilling water. They bought and brought water from creeks, ponds..lakes from local farmers. Pumped it up to 1 1/2 miles away too. Quite an engineering job at times. The gas and oil bearing blue shale layers are about 1000 feet down..to 1500 feet down around here...just above that is very porous red shale and very tilted broken sandstone and limestone layers ..just above that is the Rubidoux Sand water bearing layer (well water) with more tilted sandstone above that. The fracting chemicals are up in the groundwater now..most water wells around here are from 150 ft to 300 ft deep and that trip up thru the porous layers went fast into the local well water. And no...they do not have to release info on proprietary fracting chemicals used in Arkansas..Okla..Texas...Wyoming and some more states...period! Lawsuits for over 20 years have proven that. I live in Arkansas...right in the middle of the Fayetteville Shale Play. The really deep injection wells where they pumped the waste water back down were located smack dab in the faults they found when doing the seismic testing. The gas companies knew the faults were there, the state did not..neither did the USGS...it's just easier pumping into a cracked up rock then solid. It caused earthquakes. I am so happy to live less then 1/8 mile of a "new" known fault line. It was "illuminated" by the earthquake line in 2011 to 2012...probably just co-incidence that it has those 2 injection wells smack dab on top of it ain't it? The larger earthquakes mostly stopped within days after the PSC outlawed all injection well use in the whole state. The 2 injection wells within one mile of my place are now just $7M+ each flat spots. And it's all due to money and saving money and what lengths some companies are allowed to go. Because just like any company in the last 40 years...the gas and oil companies will stretch laws to the max. Ask some Silicon Valley folks how good their groundwater is now. Not oil/gas related strictly...but greed none-the-less. Bean counters are going to be the ruin of business. But transcedental is wrong in one thing...the gas/oil folks were smacked plenty hard by the State and Fed EPA folks on "above ground" infractions around here. Waste water trucks with the dumps open was one thing they got fined plenty over but it never stopped until the drivers were personally fined. So was leaking crap from trucks and drill rigs. Also rain water runoff from pad sites. After 3 months most of the drillers cleaned up their act. Support companies are still another matter....even now. I worked with most of the major driller companies from day one almost..everything from remodeling large offices to hooking power up at the drill sites...for over 5 years. I've made some money with them. But I'm not a fan from what they do until forced to do it right.
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Post by parfive on Jun 19, 2014 22:23:19 GMT -5
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bushmanbilly
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Post by bushmanbilly on Jun 20, 2014 14:02:51 GMT -5
Geez Rich you forgot to quote this rag. I see why you left this out. It is a offshoot of the Tyee salmon skinner save the earth rag. Your pal Andrew Nikiforuk has written for and supports the actions that this rag is promoting. Seems that the possible injuries and deaths from these eco terrorists actions are OK with you and Andrew. Must make you feel good at night not to don't give a eff about these workers and their families that might not have a mother or father come home from work. EVER!!!!!!!! Yep they will blow the line up and then have the nerve to bitch and protest about the spill they created. If you want to be credible Rich. Like I said long ago. Walk your talk or shut the front door. I can't believe I'm saying this but I have more respect for PETA than any greenie. At least they walk their talk. They are against meat and DON"T EAT IT! Not the the greenies, they bitch and complain about oil and then jump into their car and drive to the next protest. Some wells leak Rich and I will explain it to you later. stephent and transcendental I will get back to you on your comments. Just do not have the time today to go through your states regulations.
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Post by parfive on Jun 20, 2014 15:33:19 GMT -5
Next time I’m in Vancouver, I’ll pick one up. Prolly in every hotel and restaurant lobby. : ) www.straight.com
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bushmanbilly
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Post by bushmanbilly on Jun 20, 2014 21:14:49 GMT -5
Their not exempt. www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/300h(a) Publication of proposed regulations; promulgation; amendments; public hearings; administrative consultations (1) The Administrator shall publish proposed regulations for State underground injection control programs within 180 days after December 16, 1974. Within 180 days after publication of such proposed regulations, he shall promulgate such regulations with such modifications as he deems appropriate. Any regulation under this subsection may be amended from time to time. (2) Any regulation under this section shall be proposed and promulgated in accordance with section 553 of title 5 (relating to rulemaking), except that the Administrator shall provide opportunity for public hearing prior to promulgation of such regulations. In proposing and promulgating regulations under this section the Administrator shall consult with the Secretary, the National Drinking Water Advisory Council, and other appropriate Federal entities and with interested State entities. (b) Minimum requirements; restrictions (1) Regulations under subsection (a) of this section for State underground injection programs shall contain minimum requirements for effective programs to prevent underground injection which endangers drinking water sources within the meaning of subsection (d)(2) of this section. Such regulations shall require that a State program, in order to be approved under section 300h–1 of this title— (A) shall prohibit, effective on the date on which the applicable underground injection control program takes effect, any underground injection in such State which is not authorized by a permit issued by the State (except that the regulations may permit a State to authorize underground injection by rule);(B) shall require (i) in the case of a program which provides for authorization of underground injection by permit, that the applicant for the permit to inject must satisfy the State that the underground injection will not endanger drinking water sources, and (ii) in the case of a program which provides for such an authorization by rule, that no rule may be promulgated which authorizes any underground injection which endangers drinking water sources;(C) shall include inspection, monitoring, recordkeeping, and reporting requirements; and (D) shall apply (i) as prescribed by section 300j–6 (b) [1] of this title, to underground injections by Federal agencies, and (ii) to underground injections by any other person whether or not occurring on property owned or leased by the United States. (2) Regulations of the Administrator under this section for State underground injection control programs may not prescribe requirements which interfere with or impede— (A) the underground injection of brine or other fluids which are brought to the surface in connection with oil or natural gas production or natural gas storage operations, or (B) any underground injection for the secondary or tertiary recovery of oil or natural gas, unless such requirements are essential to assure that underground sources of drinking water will not be endangered by such injection.(3) (A) The regulations of the Administrator under this section shall permit or provide for consideration of varying geologic, hydrological, or historical conditions in different States and in different areas within a State. (B) (i) In prescribing regulations under this section the Administrator shall, to the extent feasible, avoid promulgation of requirements which would unnecessarily disrupt State underground injection control programs which are in effect and being enforced in a substantial number of States. (ii) For the purpose of this subparagraph, a regulation prescribed by the Administrator under this section shall be deemed to disrupt a State underground injection control program only if it would be infeasible to comply with both such regulation and the State underground injection control program. (iii) For the purpose of this subparagraph, a regulation prescribed by the Administrator under this section shall be deemed unnecessary only if, without such regulation, underground sources of drinking water will not be endangered by an underground injection. (C) Nothing in this section shall be construed to alter or affect the duty to assure that underground sources of drinking water will not be endangered by any underground injection.
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bushmanbilly
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Post by bushmanbilly on Jun 20, 2014 21:51:27 GMT -5
The gas drillers didn't drill water wells around for the fracting/drilling water. They bought and brought water from creeks, ponds..lakes from local farmers. Pumped it up to 1 1/2 miles away too. Quite an engineering job at times. The gas and oil bearing blue shale layers are about 1000 feet down..to 1500 feet down around here...just above that is very porous red shale and very tilted broken sandstone and limestone layers ..just above that is the Rubidoux Sand water bearing layer (well water) with more tilted sandstone above that. The fracting chemicals are up in the groundwater now..most water wells around here are from 150 ft to 300 ft deep and that trip up thru the porous layers went fast into the local well water. And no...they do not have to release info on proprietary fracting chemicals used in Arkansas..Okla..Texas...Wyoming and some more states...period! Lawsuits for over 20 years have proven that. I live in Arkansas...right in the middle of the Fayetteville Shale Play. The really deep injection wells where they pumped the waste water back down were located smack dab in the faults they found when doing the seismic testing. The gas companies knew the faults were there, the state did not..neither did the USGS...it's just easier pumping into a cracked up rock then solid. It caused earthquakes. I am so happy to live less then 1/8 mile of a "new" known fault line. It was "illuminated" by the earthquake line in 2011 to 2012...probably just co-incidence that it has those 2 injection wells smack dab on top of it ain't it? The larger earthquakes mostly stopped within days after the PSC outlawed all injection well use in the whole state. The 2 injection wells within one mile of my place are now just $7M+ each flat spots. And it's all due to money and saving money and what lengths some companies are allowed to go. Because just like any company in the last 40 years...the gas and oil companies will stretch laws to the max. Ask some Silicon Valley folks how good their groundwater is now. Not oil/gas related strictly...but greed none-the-less. Bean counters are going to be the ruin of business. But transcedental is wrong in one thing...the gas/oil folks were smacked plenty hard by the State and Fed EPA folks on "above ground" infractions around here. Waste water trucks with the dumps open was one thing they got fined plenty over but it never stopped until the drivers were personally fined. So was leaking crap from trucks and drill rigs. Also rain water runoff from pad sites. After 3 months most of the drillers cleaned up their act. Support companies are still another matter....even now. I worked with most of the major driller companies from day one almost..everything from remodeling large offices to hooking power up at the drill sites...for over 5 years. I've made some money with them. But I'm not a fan from what they do until forced to do it right. Stephent. I feel for man. Fracking at 1000 feet or 300 meters is not smart. Your shale play sounds like the coal methane beds in Alberta. To shallow to frac safely. They stopped some after they started. But transcedental is wrong in one thing...the gas/oil folks were smacked plenty hard by the State and Fed EPA folks on "above ground" infractions around here............. As they should be!!! Remember a state official signed off for the ok with the injection wells. Very little if any due-diligence was done on the Gov.s part. I don't know if your state has this policy. Every business owner,consultant and field supervisor in the energy field must take it. www.remedyenergy.com/Training/Due-Diligence/
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bushmanbilly
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Post by bushmanbilly on Jun 20, 2014 22:00:01 GMT -5
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transcendental
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2014
Posts: 459
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Post by transcendental on Jun 20, 2014 22:03:01 GMT -5
I know they are not completely exempt, however there are loopholes in the regulations that allow them to get away with minor infractions. I'm also sure there are variances state by state. water.epa.gov/type/groundwater/uic/class2/hydraulicfracturing/wells_hydroreg.cfmBasically only diesel fuel being injected into wells is regulated/monitored by the epa along with anything being pumped out. Anything other than diesel fuel that is injected into a well, it's up to the individual states to monitor and regulate. Some states are working to rectify the loophole within the states own legislature, however not all are and in one of my previous posts I pointed out north Carolina moving in the opposite direction. www.ncsl.org/research/energy/fracking-update-what-states-are-doing.aspx
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