bushmanbilly
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Post by bushmanbilly on Jun 24, 2014 22:37:39 GMT -5
A little something to clam your nerves Grasshopper.
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Post by parfive on Jun 24, 2014 23:16:44 GMT -5
Cenovus plans to file the EIA and project application with AENV and the ERCB as early as December 2011 and anticipates an approximate two year regulatory approval process, with AENV and ERCB regulatory approval expected in early 2014. Assuming company approval to proceed, construction is expected to last for approximately 10 years with a projected operational life of approximately 40 years. The timing of construction start for each of the phases is dependant on market conditions and company approval. Mayflower spill was back in March, 2013. So you might as well file that one under Bullshit, Billy.
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Post by parfive on Jun 25, 2014 1:29:38 GMT -5
I’ll take Tarball Synonyms for a thousand, Alex.
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transcendental
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Post by transcendental on Jun 25, 2014 6:28:25 GMT -5
Some thing fishy in your state, I can't see how a state gov. can over rule a N. American law when regarding the transportation of dangerous goods. I'm posting a video of a frac operation in the heart of a Pennsylvania. All the trucks in that video are placarded with TDG tags. Like I said there is no fracking in my state, pennsylvania also has some of the better regulations along with new York due to public out cry. I still find it hard to believe that the waste water trucks are placarded for every chemical they contain. The wastes can have upwards of 100 dif chemicals, alot of them known to be harmfull. They prob placard the most volotile. The regs are state by state and each is different. Most drilling operations don't transport waste water across state lines they dispose in the state they drill.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2014 14:45:14 GMT -5
I'm posting a video of a frac operation in the heart of a Pennsylvania. All the trucks in that video are placarded with TDG tags. Like I said there is no fracking in my state, pennsylvania Actually there seems to be a plethora of fracking in Pennsylvania. This website www.nrdc.org/energy/fracking-map/pa.asp seems to indicate quite a lot of it. And Pennsylvania NPR has a very imformative visual guide to fracking in Pennsylvania here.
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transcendental
spending too much on rocks
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Post by transcendental on Jun 27, 2014 15:57:51 GMT -5
I'm not in pennsylvania, I'm in Connecticut. But yes there is alot of info on fracking in Pennsylvania, it is also one of the state's to have tighter regs due to public concern/out cry.
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Post by nowyo on Jun 27, 2014 23:28:46 GMT -5
It's been a while, but I had to attend a training session on shipping hazardous waste for a past job, where I was one of six people in the facility authorized to sign the manifests. As I recall, placarding is a Fed thing, not state. Failure to have the paperwork correct and shipments properly placarded was kind of a big deal.
Are they fracking in Conn.? Seems odd, from what I recall of the geology in that area. Correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a lot of years and I've been busy killing brain cells.
Russ
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transcendental
spending too much on rocks
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Post by transcendental on Jun 28, 2014 7:23:45 GMT -5
No they are not noyo, as far as my research can tell when it comes to fracking and oil there is alot of gray area and it's up to the states to determine was best for their particular area. Again, I couldn't find much info on placard info for transporting frack waste, all I did find was coming out of canada. I'm Def interested in more info if anyone can find any regarding usa regs specifically siting frack waste fluids
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bushmanbilly
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Post by bushmanbilly on Jun 28, 2014 11:24:38 GMT -5
This is a good read. Some facts in here are never told by the anti-frac people. The Facts about Fracking Fluid and its Disposal oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/The-Facts-about-Fracking-Fluid-and-its-Disposal.htmlAlthough there are dozens to hundreds of chemicals, which could be used as additives, typically, there are no more than 12 chemicals used in the fracturing process. Most of the additives are commonly used household or personal care items, which pose little or no health risks. However, a limited number are classified hazardous substances. 5. The dry cleaning of clothes. “You know that smell on clothes that have been to the dry cleaners? Well, for the first time scientists have measured it and found worrying levels of the toxic chemical used most commonly in the dry cleaning process. Most dry cleaners use an oil-based solvent called “Perc” (short for perchloroethylene) that has been linked to serious health problems, particularly for workers or nearby residents who inhale fumes, or for those drinking water contaminated with the chemical. The chemical is such a potent toxic substance that it’s prompted federal and state hazardous waste cleanups at dozens of Superfund sites around the country, some of them at defunct cleaners that didn’t handle their waste properly. And, not surprisingly, the chemical remains on clothes after they come home from the dry cleaners, and even build up over time if clothes are repeatedly dry cleaned, according to a Georgetown University study that was inspired by a sophomore high school student’s science project.” In closing, it’s convenient and easy to point at hydraulic fracturing as another human activity that if not curtailed will destroy humanity. The ascent of man is one of risk management and ultimately doing the right thing. Sure controls, oversight and improvements are necessary when our future is at stake. But let’s deal in facts rather than mindless cut and pastes that naysayers righteously proclaim to an unwary public who go about brushing their teeth, driving behind salt spraying trucks, sitting in aircraft during deicing procedures, sending their clothes to the local dry cleaner, buying toys for birthdays and holidays, and shopping to feed and clothe the family without thinking of the potential harm they are doing to themselves and mother earth. Time to put fracking in proper perspective!
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Fossilman
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Post by Fossilman on Jun 28, 2014 13:07:40 GMT -5
Excellent "bushmanbilly" ......Hit the nail on the head! Thumbs up...
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bushmanbilly
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Post by bushmanbilly on Jun 29, 2014 10:25:31 GMT -5
Excellent "bushmanbilly" ......Hit the nail on the head! Thumbs up... Yes it is. the only reason these other products are never protested is because the Tides foundations and others. Are blinded by the truth. They have no problem brushing their teeth before the next protest. 1. Sodium fluoride found in almost every tube of fluoridated toothpaste, which is far more hazardous and toxic than any of the additives in the hydraulic fracturing fluid. Sodium fluoride is toxic by ingestion, inhalation and skin contact. “Fluorides are more toxic than lead and only slightly less poisonous than arsenic. As of April 7th, 1997, the United States FDA (Food & Drug Administration) has required that all fluoride toothpastes sold in the U.S. carry a poison warning on the label. Another of the little-known facts about fluoride toothpaste is that each tube of toothpaste – even those specifically marketed for children – contains enough fluoride to kill a child. Fortunately, however, toothpaste-induced fatalities have been rarely reported in the US. In a review of Poison Center Control reports between 1989 and 1994, 12,571 reports were found from people who had ingested excess toothpaste. Of these calls, 2 people – probably both children – experienced “major medical outcomes”, defined as “signs or symptoms that are life-threatening or result in significant residual disability or disfigurement,” How many barrels of this toxic goo is spit down the sinks everyday?
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stephent
starting to spend too much on rocks
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Post by stephent on Jun 29, 2014 13:35:17 GMT -5
Countering tree hugger protests with mis-direction and wandering off the subject of fracting fluid contents is as much BS as the tree huggers put out. By the article's own definition of using 3,000,000 gallons (a minimum around here!) of "fracting fluids" with 98% sand and water and *only* 2% of proprietary "we don't have to divulge" fluids..with tops of 40% coming back up (I'm leaning towards being nice here)..seems to leave 36,000 gallons of "some proprietary fluids" stuck? from 1000 to 1500 feet down here. Per WELL! They normally drill from 2 to 4 wells on the same pad area here. Mehhhh...it's legal..right? And sodium fluoride? Give me a break..that's one of the known lesser problems. I personally don't want much Methanol in drinking water...none would be best. But it's a damn terrific carrier fluid..right? Mixes well with water or other alcohols so nice. The cleaning fluids explanation about it being used in dry cleaning (with close to 99+% recovery...not so much by the oil/gas drillers and made BY oil companies) ***but that stuff is being banned in most states in the next 5 years or so *** but "possibly" still used for fracting is a cop-out misdirection of the lowest order. Bottom line.... it's still legal...right? The gas companies drilled right down to a known anomaly (to them...not USGS or Arkansas geologists at the time) and put injection wells right on top... Mehhhhh...it's legal..right? And glossing over 2R to 4R earthquakes is total BS! I can tell you from experience that a 4.0 will jar your teeth..break glasses and crack sheetrock. The 2 day later 4.7R (please feel free to gloss over the *logarithmic* aspect of the Richter scale) will put you on the ground hoping it never ever ever gets worse! That little 4R was felt over 150 miles away...the 4.7R had folks over 200 miles away saying WTH? Creates minor to no known problems?... really!? Injection site produced Earthquakes only create little to no known admittances of liability in fact. BUT...it's legal...right? NOT here now thankfully!
Responsible? not when it's only the bottom line that's cared about. It's just legal bullying...and pure and simple money grubbing in the cheapest most efficient at the time --damn the torpedoes-- way that's available and quasi-legal. We need gas production..and lots! of oil production (there is some known oil under and in this shale I am sitting on top of and "some" of the chemicals are for releasing that oil). But the oil/gas industry has had a general clean up of their habits only by force...not by the goodness of their hearts. We need priorities in place and laws (obviously by past actions) in place that will keep from having more multi-billion dollar Superfund sites all over the world, and still meet energy needs somehow. Mindlessly preventing drilling or fracting will lead back to everyone living in huts and caves....so can mindlessly allowing anything and everything a business can dream of doing...but as long as it's legal...now...right? Beancounters are not visionaries nor environmentalists. They just grub right along and companies will take advantage as long as they are "minimally responsible". So do their company shills and PR folks...and lawyers...let's not forget the battalions of lawyers needed for doing some environmental goodness purely from the purity of the corporate heart.
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transcendental
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Post by transcendental on Jun 30, 2014 8:46:06 GMT -5
Your really trying to use flouride as an argument? Flouride is highly toxic and has been found to cause endocine and neurological disorders (you know, the stuff they put in your tap water not just the stuff found in the tube which isn't meant for consumption)
Two wrongs don't make a right here. If it goes in a well it should be taken back out and disposed of properly, not left there for someone else to deal with it later on down the road.
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bushmanbilly
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Post by bushmanbilly on Jun 30, 2014 14:40:15 GMT -5
Countering tree hugger protests with mis-direction and wandering off the subject of fracting fluid contents is as much BS as the tree huggers put out
No misdirection or off topic. These are some of the same chemicals used in fracking. But I guess there safe if used by other industries. They only become toxic once delivered to the frac site. Get real.
.seems to leave 36,000 gallons of "some proprietary fluids" stuck? from 1000 to 1500 feet down here. Per WELL! They normally drill from 2 to 4 wells on the same pad area here. Mehhhh...it's legal..right?
You ever hear the term "gravity"? Once the gas pushes out the fluid that is above the horizontal pipe. The remaining fluids seep into the fractures made by the frac. In turn pushing the gas and hydrocarbons up the production string.
And sodium fluoride? Give me a break..that's one of the known lesser problems. Yes it is in small amounts. Lets do some simple math.
The average person spits out about 10ml with every brush. (using metric because its easier)
You have about 300 million people in the US. Lets say only 200 million brush everyday.
200,000,000 x 10ml = 2 trillion ml
1000ml = 1 litre 2,000,000,000 divided by 1000 = 2,000,000 litres of spit
3.8 litres = 1 gallon 2,000,000 divided by 3.8 = 526,315 gallons
526,315 x 365 days = 192,105,263 gallons
Lets say 2% of the spit is sodium fluoride and hydroxyethyl cellulose.
192,105,263 x 2% = 3,842,105 gallons of toxic spit waste is being lost somewhere or is dumped into the landfills.
Spit adds up!!!!!!!
The gas companies drilled right down to a known anomaly (to them...not USGS or Arkansas geologists at the time) and put injection wells right on top... Mehhhhh...it's legal..right?
The gas companies knew about it, but the USGS didn't??? You really believe that a company would invest millions to drill wells into a known problem area. And in doing this they would lose millions in cleanup and abandonment costs. That may be the what subsidized green energy companies do, but private companies have to answer to shareholders. CEO would not last long with dunb invertments moves like that. Oil companies study the USGS reports. Ever think that just maybe your Gov. got it wrong??? The oil and gas companies follow the rules and regs made by the elected state officials. I think your blaming the wrong people.
But the oil/gas industry has had a general clean up of their habits only by force...not by the goodness of their hearts.
No they are complying to new and up to date regulations. Just like any company has to do. As technology advances the regs should to.
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bushmanbilly
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Post by bushmanbilly on Jun 30, 2014 14:57:45 GMT -5
You should read this. section Is the Waste Excluded? .................................... III-8 - Solid Waste Exclusions ................................. III-9 - Hazardous Waste Exclusions ...................... III-13 A material cannot be a hazardous waste if it does not meet the definition of a solid waste. Thus, wastes that are excluded from the definition of solid waste are not subject to RCRA Subtitle C hazardous waste regulation. There are 25 exclusions from the definition of solid waste. www.epa.gov/osw/inforesources/pubs/orientat/rom31.pdfHousehold Hazardous Waste Households often generate solid wastes that could technically be hazardous wastes (e.g., old solvents, paints, pesticides, fertilizers, or poisons). However, it would be impossible to regulate every house in the United States that occasionally threw away a can of paint thinner or a bottle of rat poison. Therefore, EPA developed the household waste exclusion. Under this exclusion, wastes generated by normal household activities (e.g., routine house and yard maintenance) are excluded from the definition of hazardous waste. EPA has expanded the exclusion to include household-like areas, such as bunkhouses, ranger stations, crew quarters, campgrounds, picnic grounds, and day-use recreation areas. While household hazardous waste is excluded from Subtitle C, it is regulated under Subtitle D as a solid waste (as discussed in Chapter) Be careful what you wish for. It just might knock on your front door someday. One of these might look very pretty on your house.
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stephent
starting to spend too much on rocks
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Post by stephent on Jun 30, 2014 19:58:38 GMT -5
And we are back to spitting and brushing our teeth....thought the subject was fracting//waste disposal. Point...even the Federal EPA doesn't regulate what's used under the ground to fract with outside of using an atomic bomb. Point...I don't pour hazardous wastes out on the ground. If the oil/gas folks do spill (outside of the containment area) a "small" amount of what they fract with and *get caught*..they are fined! If it's so damn easy on the environment, why is it regulated above ground?
Please...comparing fracting fluids to someone brushing their teeth is asinine...why don't you brush your teeth with some? Smoke and mirrors.
I have a question for you... how long was it before BP admitted responsibility for the Caribbean crude spill when all involved knew what had happened? I will give you the 2 days before everyone was SURE what had happened..and where.
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bushmanbilly
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Post by bushmanbilly on Jun 30, 2014 23:55:33 GMT -5
And we are back to spitting and brushing our teeth....thought the subject was fracting//waste disposal.
Hazardous waste is hazardous waste. No matter what industry is involved. I could have really scared you and posted the number for 50 years of brushing. FYI- lawn movers spill more gas and oil than the oilpatch every year. And I don't see you posting any sheep pictures as pets. So I can safely assume that you have one.
Point...even the Federal EPA doesn't regulate what's used under the ground to fract with outside of using an atomic bomb.
And thats the Frackers and oil industry's fault? Really!! Hmmm1 wonder what happened to the hope and change thingy.
Point...I don't pour hazardous wastes out on the ground.
Somehow I find that really hard to believe. Never sprayed a weed. Painted your house. What type of cars and trucks do you buy? I have to buy one of them that never leaks oil or can be over filled with gas. I do know one thing your bullshit it green.
If it's so damn easy on the environment, why is it regulated above ground?
EPA and the state make the rules. Ask them. Every oil and gas company has a 0 spill motto. Spills cost money. And they do everything they can to control them. As in every industry and life for all that matters has something called HUMAN ERROR. Shit happens, its part of life. It just seems that if an spill involves oil. Its magnified by 1000 times compared to other industries.
how long was it before BP admitted responsibility
Simple liability. A lot of factors were at play. Yes BP owned the well. They did not own the rig,BOP, or the crews involved. A lot of subcontractors were working there. Their equipment and personal had to be vetted. Well profile has to be looked at. etc.
Why would they admit to blame, if they did not know what happened?
Just for fun 50 years of spit equals 192,105,250 gallons of fluoride goop flushed into your water supply. Whats in the other 98%?
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bushmanbilly
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Post by bushmanbilly on Jul 1, 2014 1:07:58 GMT -5
Uncle Sam's Snake Oil. Just one glass will fix what ever ya got. Hell, have another for good measure. Health facilities flush estimated 250M pounds of drugs a yearU.S. hospitals and long-term care facilities annually flush millions of pounds of unused pharmaceuticals down the drain, pumping contaminants into America's drinking water, according to an ongoing Associated Press investigation. These discarded medications are expired, spoiled, over-prescribed or unneeded. Some are simply unused because patients refuse to take them, can't tolerate them or die with nearly full 90-day supplies of multiple prescriptions on their nightstands. usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-09-14-drugs-flush-water_N.htmYou see the point I'm trying to make here. I'm not saying that the oil industry are angles. Their not. Every part of a industrialized nation has waste problems. And people that break the laws and have no respect for the environment. Waste is a main part of every large city. What happens when a city runs out of room to grow. Just cover up the landfill and rename it Sweetwater Meadows. But the world will end if fracking continues. Hmmmm! imagine that!
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stephent
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Post by stephent on Jul 1, 2014 1:56:30 GMT -5
Unfortunately it's going to be a decade before some of the currant problems can be worked out so the fracting (fracking?) can be done without problems. I figure it will get done. We do need energy and I dang sure don't see all the Prius's and Hybrids curing that "want" anytime soon. Burying the earth under trash won't help either....except for some folks a million years or so in the future mining the waste dumps. But unlike spitting the used toothpaste out... fracting does cause problems now sometimes, instead of waiting for the 50 million gallon rinse level. linklinkwww.scientificamerican.com/article/groundwater-contamination-may-end-the-gas-fracking-boom/But I have little fear fracting will end.. it's an effecient way to produce more Natural Gas in less time and energy expenditures. I don't want it to end. But it needs to be done in a safe manner...NOT just to the drillers and fracting crews. I have friends working in the oil/gas patch. I like them. They are usually safe...except for the odd stray lightening bolt that hits the drill towers. The drilling folks have a decent safety record...ditto for the crews who fract. And then leave all safe and snug and there's a mess creeping up from underground in a very few places. <--one is too many for my tastes. Gravity "use" is another cop-out...if it is kept down there so well... how come from 20% to 40% is coming back out of the well to be recovered or disposed of? Maybe 40,000 plus psi of fract pump is overfilling a hole with uncompressible substances? Sand and "mostly" water with some "insignificent" amounts of toothpaste and common house use dry cleaning fluids? We have to have a lot of energy on tap...and at a safe way to do it too. It's a modern quicksand shifting sticky problem... but it will get sorted out eventually.
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bushmanbilly
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Post by bushmanbilly on Jul 3, 2014 15:20:51 GMT -5
Gravity "use" is another cop-out...if it is kept down there so well... how come from 20% to 40% is coming back out of the well to be recovered or disposed of?
Its not a cop out. Think of it this way. You have a 5 gallon bucket full of water. A hole is punched in the pail halfway down. Will it continue to leak after the level reaches the hole? Some shale zones have natural water in them. Usually salt water. If that is the case in your area. it will produce a little water for the life of the well.
Maybe 40,000 plus psi of fract pump is overfilling a hole with uncompressible substances?
Their pumpers would explode before reaching that pressure. A non compressible fluid has to be used. The formation would not fracture without it. The sand is for holding the fracture open. Most of the chemicals are lubricants and corrosion inhibitors. If not used the pipe would be ground paper thin or rust out. Have you ever had a milkshake? If you have you are drinking one the chemicals they use for fracking. What makes a shake thick is the same stuff that gels the water to carry the sand.
Your biggest problem you have is that there are 52 different ego's in your country. Every state has to have their own rules and regs. I think the smart thing to do would be adopt the regs from the states that have done this for a long time.
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