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Post by connrock on Nov 20, 2014 6:48:49 GMT -5
You've probably seen this video before but I'd like to mention a couple of things about the action and the load itself. Don't forget,,,I'm basing what I say on what I see in my L-O-T. This video is posted at being a 50 pound barrel,,,, To me,the rolling action is way too slow.The rocks should be rotating around the barrel much faster.There's a nice slurry in there and (to me) there's only 3 things that can cause a slow rock rotation. One is that there is too much water and I don't think this is the case here. Two is the rocks are getting very sticky and the load needs a tad of water,,,this may be the case here? Three is the units vibrations.With the Viking the vibrations can be adjusted and this may (also) be the case here. I noticed something else that puzzles me.Although there seems to be a very nice mix of different size rocks in the load,most of the bigger rocks seem to be to the left side of the barrel? Not knowing squat about a Viking I'm guessing that one set of counter balances is set different then the other causing heavier rocks to go to one side? linkHope this link works? LOL connrock
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 20, 2014 9:09:49 GMT -5
You've probably seen this video before but I'd like to mention a couple of things about the action and the load itself. Don't forget,,,I'm basing what I say on what I see in my L-O-T. This video is posted at being a 50 pound barrel,,,, To me,the rolling action is way too slow.The rocks should be rotating around the barrel much faster.There's a nice slurry in there and (to me) there's only 3 things that can cause a slow rock rotation. One is that there is too much water and I don't think this is the case here. Two is the rocks are getting very sticky and the load needs a tad of water,,,this may be the case here? Three is the units vibrations.With the Viking the vibrations can be adjusted and this may (also) be the case here. I noticed something else that puzzles me.Although there seems to be a very nice mix of different size rocks in the load,most of the bigger rocks seem to be to the left side of the barrel? Not knowing squat about a Viking I'm guessing that one set of counter balances is set different then the other causing heavier rocks to go to one side? linkHope this link works? LOL connrock You answered a question-that water can slow the vibration. Was wondering how that works. If it sped it or slowed it The vibrations may be adjustable in amount of force only, and not number per second, since the shaft at at fixed speed ? Hard to prove that because the vibrations my be 4/rotation or 2/rotation depending on eccentric setting, that I do not know. Cheap vibration measurement devices that are hand held and you just stick it on the machine and it tells the vibration. The rate at which it rolls is one thing, and the rate the rocks vibrate against each other is another. As long as they are rolling and mixing wouldn't the vibrations do their work on the rocks ? More guessing. When it was first started w/glass chips, only the right side would roll. Took it apart and it appeared some one had moved the fixed eccentric. I took it apart and found 2 scars from set screws on the shaft, rotated the fixed eccentric from 1 o'clock back to 12 o'clock. That seemed to have fixed the unbalanced roll. The heavy rocks do wonder to the left. It may not be sitting level. or when I moved that fixed eccentric slightly it had a big effect on the roll from left to right. I was not happy when I found the fixed eccentric had been moved. I did notice right off that the tick marks were not lined up-right eccentric to left eccentric, relative to the shaft. And there are clamping collars everywhere, and the factory seemed to have lined up ALL the set screws along the shaft. When I moved the fixed eccentric from 1 o'clock to 12 o'clock all the set screws were lined up perfectly. So maybe it is right, or close.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 20, 2014 9:23:07 GMT -5
After looking at the 50 pound beast I see what you are saying about the slow rotation. Maybe the added weight just advances slower than the 14 pound hopper. I think the rocks float while the barrel is pulled down for each vibration. When the rocks re-contact the barrel they land slightly forward due to a slight orbital motion of the barrel. Do this 50 times per second and the rolling action occurs. Smaller vibes seem to mix much faster. Guessing the Lot-O has great mixing/rolling speed. Lot-O guessing Mr connrock. This device would be a world of help:
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 20, 2014 9:44:54 GMT -5
I used to work in the paper industry. Our company would do vibration analysis on the giant paper machine bearings. Some of the bearings were 3 feet in diameter and supported solid marble rolls over 30 feet long and 30 inches in diameter. The rollers were making paper at 50-60 MPH, so they were humming along. We would attach vibration equipment and give them reports on their bearing's 'health". Kissing up so they would buy our products so to speak. By knowing the number of balls/rollers in the bearing and the speed of rotation we could find potential defects. The equipment was complicated and had a computer to manipulate and graph the vibration issues. This video is vibration 101 and shows how bloody complicated this science is. These vibe tumblers are not much different, except the vibrations are much more complicated and multi-directional. Who cares, as long as they polish the rocks-LOL. check it out:
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Post by connrock on Nov 20, 2014 12:59:59 GMT -5
Interesting that you worked in the paper industry! We build many,many roll grinders for the paper industry and had a department the Roll Shop where we ground rolls for them.Some rolls were granite,marble and another type of roll was called a Swimming Roll where the center of the roll was "flexed" with oil pressure and heat. I was told that before I worked there in 1965,we ground engraving rolls for the US Mint!
We had problems with vibration when testing the roll grinders we built so we had what was called an inertia bed installed.I guess it was supposed to dampen the vibrations?All I know is that it consisted of a ton of some pretty big springs mounted under a deck plate.The roll grinder bed sort of "floated" on the inertia bed.
There were 2 "ways" on the roll grinder bed that the carriage sat on.One was a flat way and the other was a V way.The carriage had matching ways and we had to hand scrape all 4 of the ways in for flatness.NOT a fun job!It took 2 of us about 2 weeks working 7 days/week to scrape in the ways,,,if the guy who ran the planner did a good job.If he didn't we had our hands full trying to make the ways flat.Some beds had extensions on them too which added to the drama! LOL Hmmmmm,I wonder why my shoulders,arms and wrists are in bad shape??? LOL Couldn't be from scraping cast iron for years on end??? LOL When I was a pipefitter I laughed at those dummies scrapping away day after day! LOL little did I know it was in my cards too! connrock
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Post by connrock on Nov 20, 2014 13:12:08 GMT -5
Bearing vibration,,,, We had a guy with the nickname "Bubble Gum Benny" who was our bearing expert!He would put a screw driver against a bearing housing and listen to it.Then he'd tell you what was wrong with the bearing and or how long it would last! LOL Not very scientific but he was almost always right!He had to be cuz there wasn't any other way to tell back then! LOL We had another guy,,,can't for the life of me think of his name but he was the gear expert.Did just about the same thing as Benny too! LOL He'd listen to a drive and tell you which gear was doing what!Amazing old farts! connrock
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 20, 2014 16:50:45 GMT -5
Bearing vibration,,,, We had a guy with the nickname "Bubble Gum Benny" who was our bearing expert!He would put a screw driver against a bearing housing and listen to it.Then he'd tell you what was wrong with the bearing and or how long it would last! LOL Not very scientific but he was almost always right!He had to be cuz there wasn't any other way to tell back then! LOL We had another guy,,,can't for the life of me think of his name but he was the gear expert.Did just about the same thing as Benny too! LOL He'd listen to a drive and tell you which gear was doing what!Amazing old farts! connrock Interesting. Wonder what folks did. Looks like you were in heavy manufacturing. We bought machinery for press felt making from a company in North Adams Mass. I used to go there. They would take me out for a grinder. I asked what the hell is a grinder ? Do you call a sandwich a grinder ? I loved that term. Those guys were awesome machinist. And very technically capable. They came down for 5 months to supervise the giant needle loom we purchased from them for making press felts. I hired a dozen local ironworkers and millwrights. We gave their erectors hell and they gave it back and some. The tall skinny young one was giving ole Harold the hippie torch master hell one day and the old pot head just tapped him on the elbow with his chipping hammer. Needless to say he left the old stoned goat alone after that. It was an effortless tap. And all in fun. North Adams a small town in Mass on the Vermont border. One of the prettiest places I have ever seen. Beautiful country. Hills snow hardwoods, and those sugar maples. A grinder, cracks me up every time I think about Bob asking me to go for a grinder.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 20, 2014 17:04:40 GMT -5
By the way, the polished coral I put in the vibe 48 hours ago is shiny already. at 24 hours it went from polished to matte. Today it is almost back to polish. It is running in AO 1000. That means it removed the polish in 24 hours, broke down, and slapped a polish after 48. That same AO 1000 takes 2.5 weeks to get a lesser polish in the rotary. The vibe in 48 hours. Holy cow. By tomorrow I expect a finer polish than ever done in any of my rotary loads, and just a dash of AO 1000 was used.
The double shaft motor is acting up. I sensed a dry ball bearing when I bought it. It is starting to make the dreaded dry bearing sound today. It is one of those motors held together w/long thru screws. Think I can split it myself. Big bearing supplier just 7 miles away. Motors hell to get apart. The pillar blocks are all Browning, good ole US stuff. Motor GE.
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Post by connrock on Nov 21, 2014 8:20:54 GMT -5
Biggest machine I worked on in about 1965,,66 or maybe even 1967 was a huge beryllium extrusion press.The top of the hydraulic oil tank was 35' off the ground and you could actually park a full size pick-up in the hydraulic cylinder! I was just getting started out as a pipefitter and the hydraulic schematic was VERY intimidating! LOL The solenoid valves were massive and had to be put on with overhead cranes.We had to bend "return bends" (180 degree bends) with 48" centers out of 4" schedule 180 pipe to connect the solenoid valves! When it was all finished,painted and lookin pretty the company called in a photographer to shoot some shots of it.When he saw the size and height of the machine he turned white cuz he was scarred of heights! LOL I offered to take the shots from on top of the tank and in return he would send me a photo of me standing next to the machine.The dirty rat never sent the photo! LOL
I've been to and through North Adams many,many times and driven through the Mohawk Trail that goes between North Adams and Greenfield VT during the fall foliage season.VERY pretty drive! Along the way we'd stop at an Italian Diner for hot sausage and pepper grinders and a big soda! LOL Always though a sub was a boat that went under water and grits are used to tumble rocks! LOL
You shouldn't have much trouble replacing the motor bearings as long as you have a bearing puller? connrock
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Post by connrock on Nov 21, 2014 8:47:54 GMT -5
The vibe units sure do speed things along,,,as you're seeing right now! Once you get the hang of it and find a recipe that works for you you'll be in 7th Heaven! Good Luck,,, connrock
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 21, 2014 8:58:02 GMT -5
We are stubborn enough to bend theses 180's over our head. Beryllium press ? For making canon barrel linings ? The photo was never returned-ha. Sounds like serious pipe fitting Mr connrock. specialized. During/before WW2 they mined giant aquamarine(beryl) crystals at the Hog Mine about 80 miles SW of me. It was the ore for beryllium for lining canon barrels such as on battle ships. I used to sneak in the small mine when I was a kid, it was not even posted. There was a stone barbecue pit made out of aquamarine crystals 1-2 feet long(not gem grade). and the whole place was paved in the finest star rose quartz you ever laid eyes on, the pegmatite the aqua crystals formed in. Back then there were 4-5 inch chunks of rose quartz with out a single fracture, mostly cubic shaped. Went 30 years later and all that had been collected up, as it is a pay-to-collect site in recent years. Many on this forum collect there to this day, I was fortunate to see the original tailings.
note taken on grits and subs-good one. hat's off. Oh yea-soda, I believe that on double took me too
As far as N. Adams, never knew it was a scenic route. that must be the route into Vermont that i took every time I visited. the chief engineer for Hunter Machinery had a cabin just across Vermont line with a full AC generator on a turbine on a waterfall on his property.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 21, 2014 8:59:51 GMT -5
Yes, the first load after 2 days is doing miracles. Less electricity and grit, better quicker results. amazed
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Post by connrock on Nov 21, 2014 9:41:37 GMT -5
We built that beryllium press for the U.S Navy and I have no idea what they used it for?
The Hog Mine sounds amazing and I would love to have some of that rose quarts....it's one of my favorites!
I was out driving around country roads looking for a bee keeper I was told lived somewhere in that area.I saw an open pit rock quarry filled with water so I stopped to take a look at it.I was there about 2 minutes when a man came out of his house across the road headed my way.Come to find out the quarry was first mined during WW II for mica that was used in the Norden bombsights! While mining the mica they discovered a lot of gold beryl so mining operations switched to mining that instead of the mica!If that's not a coincidence about the Hod Mine,,,,,this quarry was loaded with rose quartz too! LOL It was more of a light pink color and highly fractured though.I don't know if it was naturally fractured or if it got that way after blasting but it was laying all over the place. The owner gave me permission to collect there but the pink quarts I collected didn't tumble well at all.I only found very small "chips" of gold beryl. I had a small fracture free piece of the pink quartz faceted because to me it's special and part of this Country's history. connrock
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2014 17:43:50 GMT -5
Greetings Ladies & Gents, [jamesp] The eccentrics are both left and right are set as inner weight = 1, outer weight = 6 for 2X 6lb and left inner weight = 2, outer weight = 1, right side is zero (loose) and a broken belt for the 14lb. Strangely enough the rocks were still a cycling in the hopper, but weaker on the right side. One of the previous owners must have marked the weights with a permanent marker with extra lines and numbers. Please check out my Sticky's below. -- Please click images to open larger images in a new Tab, same with everything that is Underlined! I currently have a 3lb Beach (UK), Lortone QT 12/66 (USA) rotaries & 2x Viking Vibrasonic (Diamond Pacific) (USA) virbrating tumblers, with Silicon Carbide grit F80, F220, F600, F1200, with Tin Oxide (1.0 micron) & Aluminum Oxide (1.0 micron & 0.3 micron) polishes. I hail from (The Barony of Seabegs) Bonnybridge, Stirlingshire, U.K, where aliens (15mb) sometimes come for a visit & about 4 miles west from that monstrosity & 7 miles west of this new monstrosity! Sticky's: their contents are resource information 1#: Vendors worldwide (2mb), 2#: How to use the forum, 3#: How to identify rocks & minerals, 4#: Save money on expensive grits & polishes, 5#: Aussie Lapidary Forum: Rock Tumbling Guide!
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 21, 2014 19:07:45 GMT -5
Greetings Ladies & Gents, [jamesp] The eccentrics are both left and right are set as inner weight = 1, outer weight = 6 for 2X 6lb and left inner weight = 2, outer weight = 1, right side is zero (loose) and a broken belt for the 14lb. Strangely enough the rocks were still a cycling in the hopper, but weaker on the right side. One of the previous owners must have marked the weights with a permanent marker with extra lines and numbers. Please check out my Sticky's below. -- Please click images to open larger images in a new Tab, same with everything that is Underlined! I currently have a 3lb Beach (UK), Lortone QT 12/66 (USA) rotaries & 2x Viking Vibrasonic (Diamond Pacific) (USA) virbrating tumblers, with Silicon Carbide grit F80, F220, F600, F1200, with Tin Oxide (1.0 micron) & Aluminum Oxide (1.0 micron & 0.3 micron) polishes. I hail from (The Barony of Seabegs) Bonnybridge, Stirlingshire, U.K, where aliens (15mb) sometimes come for a visit & about 4 miles west from that monstrosity & 7 miles west of this new monstrosity! Sticky's: their contents are resource information 1#: Vendors worldwide (2mb), 2#: How to use the forum, 3#: How to identify rocks & minerals, 4#: Save money on expensive grits & polishes, 5#: Aussie Lapidary Forum: Rock Tumbling Guide! The eccentrics are both left and right are set as inner weight = 1, outer weight = 6 for 2X 6lb and left inner weight = 2, outer weight = 1, right side is zero (loose) and a broken belt for the 14lb. i am a bit confused Andrew. Are you saying the inner weight should be set at 1 on both sides for the 14 pound hopper. you mention outer weight =6. Mine only goes to 5. The inner weight is fixed, I thought ? You mention inner weight = 1 ?? Are you saying the right weight came loose when the belt broke ?
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 21, 2014 19:16:43 GMT -5
We built that beryllium press for the U.S Navy and I have no idea what they used it for? The Hog Mine sounds amazing and I would love to have some of that rose quarts....it's one of my favorites! I was out driving around country roads looking for a bee keeper I was told lived somewhere in that area.I saw an open pit rock quarry filled with water so I stopped to take a look at it.I was there about 2 minutes when a man came out of his house across the road headed my way.Come to find out the quarry was first mined during WW II for mica that was used in the Norden bombsights! While mining the mica they discovered a lot of gold beryl so mining operations switched to mining that instead of the mica!If that's not a coincidence about the Hod Mine,,,,,this quarry was loaded with rose quartz too! LOL It was more of a light pink color and highly fractured though.I don't know if it was naturally fractured or if it got that way after blasting but it was laying all over the place. The owner gave me permission to collect there but the pink quarts I collected didn't tumble well at all.I only found very small "chips" of gold beryl. I had a small fracture free piece of the pink quartz faceted because to me it's special and part of this Country's history. connrock I would guess the Navy was making canon liners. It is a beryllium pipe that is pressed into a steel barrel. Beryllium is slick and takes a ton of heat. So it serves well as canon liners. The way have machined rifling in them. So maybe rose quartz is associated with Beryl. The rose quartz must require similar conditions for formation. this is some that I picked up from the gravel road several years ago. The road paved with tumble sized pieces. Photo not so good:
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 21, 2014 19:44:30 GMT -5
After 3rd day I see no shine improvement w/AO 1000. So cleaned out and started AO 14,000. But it was the shiniest AO 1000 finish I ever had. Looked more like a rotary tumbled AO 5000 finish. So, guessing the 1000 broke down to about 5000. Guessing the 14,000 shoulds wet shine em up. so if 1000 is 18 microns and it broke to 5000, which is about 5 microns. So: 18 to 5 is [3.6 to 1 ratio] And 14,000 is 1 micron. so: [5 to 1 ratio] going from 5000 to 14,000. Maybe the 14,000 will break to 50,000, certainly a wet shine.
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Post by glennz01 on Nov 22, 2014 0:24:05 GMT -5
maybe next year i'll get / make a vibe
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Post by captbob on Nov 22, 2014 0:47:49 GMT -5
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 22, 2014 4:52:36 GMT -5
Hard to tell how many things come into play on that machine's design. It is possible that it is more complicated than it looks. May have been tuned with vibration analysis equipment. Most production products would be attached to such analysis equipment. Small things like the belts being in tension(X amount) and their direction of stretch(in X direction) may be used to effect vibration. Or the weight of the deck and exact placement of the off-balance shaft to the springs. Vibration is one of the most complicated subjects of mechanical engineering. And some of the old school engineers were way out in the clouds and totally advanced in mechanical design. I know that some systems invite vibration and will vibrate in a wide range of weight changes. This machine definitely falls in this category. For it to shake 8-50 pound barrels by simple eccentric adjustment a large 'sweet spot' has been designed into this machine. Add a one dimensional tubular barrel and things are much simpler. And barrel is basically a pipe, so easy to fabricate. Most of the vibration is orbital, along the pipe, instead of a bowl where mixing is from many directions. If it was me, I would copy. very closely, the design, and be guilty of copying ha. Drop the pride, and copy the heck out of it. If that little eccentric arrangement will tumble that many rocks, then copy it exactly, to the last detail. To avoid 'the perfecting it' as much as possible. I have my tape measure ready Larry, tell me what dimensions you need The only complaint I have is that fancy double shaft motor. I am sure it is there for a reason. Most likely to stabilize the eccentric shaft so that it will vibrate equally along the shaft's length parallel to the deck. At 3450 RPM that thing is buzzing. Did not measure diameter of pulleys, but they are close to the same in size. So the eccentric shaft is in the 3000 + RPM range. So 50 vibrations per second unless they are skipping beats somehow. Wall AC current is 60/second-dats fast. Much vibrating equipment uses 60 hertz in a solenoid form to create vibrations. James, I read you don't like the double shaft drive motor mainly because of the cost. What if you fabricated your own vib with a single shaft motor using a vee pully set up driving a 2 pillar block setup just above the motor that mimics the double shaft motor. It would just make the vib a bit taller. 39don To add to your double shafted idea Don. A slower 1725 RPM motor could be used with a 1.5 to 1 pulley speed increase. Looking closer at the ratio, by eye, it looks like they used about a 1 inch o-ring pulley at the motor. And it looks like a 1.4 inch pulley on the final eccentric shaft. So 1/1.4 X 3450 RPM = 2600 RPM. So 1725 RPM X 1.5 = 2600 RPM = idler shaft speed = eccentric shaft speed. That would allow a 1 to1 going from 'idler' shaft to eccentric shaft, so 4 equal diameter o-ring pulleys. Those small 1 inch pulleys are probably hard on the o-rings, better to use four 1.5 inch pulleys. And use a tough automotive v-belt for the speed step up from the motor. That would eliminate having that 3450 motor buzzing along. If 2600 RPM is the final output, why have 3450 RPM on the machine to add noise/vibration.
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