taryn
starting to shine!
Member since March 2016
Posts: 38
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Post by taryn on May 2, 2016 10:21:35 GMT -5
Hi everyone - I'm very new to stone setting (have only done one) and have a question about setting stones with vertical sides (girdle?). I have seen handmade pendants where the bezel looks completely vertical, with no angling at all. The top of the bezel does not quite meet the top edge of what is essentially a flat topped stone. I am mystified as to how you set a stone like this without glue...? Any insight into this magic is much appreciated!
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Post by rockjunquie on May 2, 2016 16:17:59 GMT -5
Most likely there was an angle, you just didn't perceive it. It doesn't take very much, at all, to keep a stone in. The top of the bezel wire just has to be smaller than the bottom of the bezel wire- if that made sense.
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Don
Cave Dweller
He wants you too, Malachi.
Member since December 2009
Posts: 2,616
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Post by Don on May 2, 2016 16:27:31 GMT -5
Hi everyone - I'm very new to stone setting (have only done one) and have a question about setting stones with vertical sides (girdle?). I have seen handmade pendants where the bezel looks completely vertical, with no angling at all. The top of the bezel does not quite meet the top edge of what is essentially a flat topped stone. I am mystified as to how you set a stone like this without glue...? Any insight into this magic is much appreciated! Glue is a very common practice unfortunately.
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Post by radio on May 2, 2016 19:00:26 GMT -5
I repair a ton of pieces that have been set with glue and have become loose, or lost. If the customer insists on resetting with glue, I rough up the bottom of the stone a bit as well as rough up the inside of the bezel cup and re set using Devcon plastic steel instead of regular clear epoxy. By roughing them up, it allows a much better bond to both surfaces and the plastic steel is much more durable and less susceptible to breaking down over time and exposure to moisture, detergents and other things we get on our hands. Also, buy yourself a burninshing tool www.sfjssantafe.com/itemstable.php?Gid=044&ItemSet=Hand+Tools&DepId=tools&ot=&at= and bezel roller www.sfjssantafe.com/items.php?Gid=045&ItemSet=Hand+Tools&DepId=tools With these tools, one can make the bezel lay against the stone evenly all the way around. The curved burnisher works great to form the top edge of the bezel over the top of the cab to hold it in place.
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Tom
fully equipped rock polisher
My dad Tom suddenly passed away yesterday, Just wanted his "rock" family to know.
Member since January 2013
Posts: 1,557
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Post by Tom on May 2, 2016 19:05:15 GMT -5
So why such a hate on for using glue? I will admit to having used it a time or two. I most definitely don't make a practice of this but have done it. Normally its been a repair job and the original was glued. But again I ask, why the hate on for glue?
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Post by rockjunquie on May 2, 2016 19:47:46 GMT -5
So why such a hate on for using glue? I will admit to having used it a time or two. I most definitely don't make a practice of this but have done it. Normally its been a repair job and the original was glued. But again I ask, why the hate on for glue? I think it's a purest thing. Wire wrappers don't like glue, either. Maybe, using glue says that it wasn't done right in the first place? edit- I wasn't referring to anyone, I was just wondering if that were the thought process behind it.
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Post by radio on May 2, 2016 20:46:54 GMT -5
So why such a hate on for using glue? I will admit to having used it a time or two. I most definitely don't make a practice of this but have done it. Normally its been a repair job and the original was glued. But again I ask, why the hate on for glue? I dislike it because I see so many pieces that the stones are either loose, or have even been lost because the glue failed often after only a couple of years. I view it as a cheap and easy way to set stones that is more suitable for costume jewelry, but not for a quality hand made or custom piece. If the stone I choose is too tall for pre made bezel, I will hand cut one to fit from 26 or 28 ga sheet silver. a few years ago I repaired a ring for a lady that was a very tall turquoise and opal inlay that was glued in, but had became quite loose. She rebuffed my suggestions and insisted i re set the stone the way it was originally. I told her up front I would not guarantee the repair under those circumstances and that the glue holding the pieces together was likely to fail next. Less than 2 years later she lost the stones and was quite unhappy even though I reminded her of my earlier recomendations. I ended up setting a piece of turquoise in the ring for free just to keep her happy and swore from that point on there would be no more glued in stones leave my shop! Edit: referring above to the normal epoxy glues here. The plastic steel I sometimes use will not deteriorate in my lifetime!
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Tom
fully equipped rock polisher
My dad Tom suddenly passed away yesterday, Just wanted his "rock" family to know.
Member since January 2013
Posts: 1,557
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Post by Tom on May 2, 2016 21:02:24 GMT -5
99.9% of what I set is with bezel or prong pressure. However I saw on some you tube video where they were using E6000. But not so much as a glue but as a cushion for the stone. I have done this before.
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Post by Rockoonz on May 2, 2016 23:16:32 GMT -5
So why such a hate on for using glue? I will admit to having used it a time or two. I most definitely don't make a practice of this but have done it. Normally its been a repair job and the original was glued. But again I ask, why the hate on for glue? Using glue to back up an inadequate mount is an inferior setting, plain and simple. Not a "hate" thing at all. Kind of like saying I hate copper settings because recognize that sterling or gold has more value.
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taryn
starting to shine!
Member since March 2016
Posts: 38
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Post by taryn on May 3, 2016 5:43:07 GMT -5
Most likely there was an angle, you just didn't perceive it. It doesn't take very much, at all, to keep a stone in. The top of the bezel wire just has to be smaller than the bottom of the bezel wire- if that made sense. Yes, it makes sense. I guess there must be an angle, however slight... Makes me want to get a level and go checking settings lol.
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Don
Cave Dweller
He wants you too, Malachi.
Member since December 2009
Posts: 2,616
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Post by Don on May 3, 2016 17:28:09 GMT -5
With the exception of inlay work, glue should never be the sole mechanism used to hold a stone in a setting. I've seen my fill of jewelry people bring me to repair that has had a stone go missing because the glue failed. A proper setting will last a lifetime or longer; a glued setting will only last as long as the glue does. Also, E6000 is the devil and should never be used in anything, so far as I am concerned. If you're determined to use glue, use a proper 2 part epoxy, or plastic steel. Just MHO FWIW.
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Post by rockjunquie on May 3, 2016 18:51:39 GMT -5
I am always surprised too see E6000 recommended for jewelry use. Not just because it is glue, but also because it is not even a good glue for the use. It is, essentially, GOOP. Goop is sold as shoe goop, too.
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Tom
fully equipped rock polisher
My dad Tom suddenly passed away yesterday, Just wanted his "rock" family to know.
Member since January 2013
Posts: 1,557
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Post by Tom on May 3, 2016 19:09:04 GMT -5
So why such a hate on for using glue? I will admit to having used it a time or two. I most definitely don't make a practice of this but have done it. Normally its been a repair job and the original was glued. But again I ask, why the hate on for glue? Using glue to back up an inadequate mount is an inferior setting, plain and simple. Not a "hate" thing at all. Kind of like saying I hate copper settings because recognize that sterling or gold has more value. Lee, While I agree in the most part with you and Don I can see some settings that would need something other than pressure to hold the stone. What about extremely thick walled silver that can't be bent over the edge of the stone, how do you do them? What am I missing? And no I don't mean adding prongs. Lee I think throwing out a blanket statement that any glue used means its an inferior setting is a bit unfair. All I am saying is that maybe there are times where glue needs to be used. I am not a pro by any means and I try to do my best at all times, I can't think of any time that I would have HAD to use glue to set a stone (other than a repair) But I have used E6000 because it was what I first saw. Is it wrong to use a backing to raise up the stone so it fits the bezel proper? I will admit that when I have used glue on repairs it has always been on cheap jewelry but I can see that there must be exceptions where its needed. Don why is E6000 the devil reincarnated? I know it was on some jewellery site where I saw it was used as a stone cushion not as a glue, the bezel was still set as normal. I don't know, I just don't like blanket statements that are thrown out at me as a fact. Just a quick google shows dozens of pages about glueing stones. just poked one for the heck of it and the guys says E6000 is the best thing since sliced break LOL. I guess my point is mute anyway as I don't use glues anymore except to fix stuff. But I plan on using some 1/4 round heavy gauge silver to make a setting for something. I guarantee that the silver wont fold over the cab, you can hardly bend the damb stuff around a mandrel. Anyway just blowing off smoke. Tom
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Post by radio on May 3, 2016 19:32:01 GMT -5
Using glue to back up an inadequate mount is an inferior setting, plain and simple. Not a "hate" thing at all. Kind of like saying I hate copper settings because recognize that sterling or gold has more value. "I know it was on some jewellery site where I saw it was used as a stone cushion not as a glue, the bezel was still set as normal." If used as a cushion, eventually it will break down and allow the stone to wiggle or wobble and most likely fall out. This is also pretty common on Native American jewelry where sawdust is/was commonly used to either cushion the stone, or most usually, add filler to make a thin cab appear thicker by using a tall bezel. Even with the bezel rolled over the edges of the cab, the stones are frequently lost or cracked when the sawdust deteriorates. I have 4 rings in Que for repairs right now that two stones are missing and the other two are cracked due to deteriorated sawdust . You set stones as you see fit, but sooner or later using glue will bite you in the butt with an unhappy customer somewhere down the road. As professionals, we owe it to our clients to provide top notch service and those who take shortcuts gives every one in the trade a black eye. Getting overly "artsy" on a piece often poses challenges with stone setting and often the risk outweighs the benefit if it will only come undone at some point I think all of us at some point early in our career have taken risks and worked on the edge. A few years later, most of us look back as ask ourselves "Why in the H*ll did I even do that?!?!!?" There is a fine line (and a tube of glue;-) between genius and insanity
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on May 3, 2016 19:44:26 GMT -5
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Post by radio on May 3, 2016 19:55:28 GMT -5
Yes, it is just as good for jewelry purposes. The stuff in the tubs seems to have a higher steel content, so is likely more suitable for industrial uses such as metal repair. I have used JB weld in a pinch with no problems, but cant say enough good things about Devcon. Be careful when buying the Devcon in the syringe though. There are several variants and even a "plastic welder", so make sure you get the right stuff. Also, the syringe is mixed 50/50 and the tubs is 3 parts steell to one part hardner
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on May 4, 2016 6:03:09 GMT -5
Yes, it is just as good for jewelry purposes. The stuff in the tubs seems to have a higher steel content, so is likely more suitable for industrial uses such as metal repair. I have used JB weld in a pinch with no problems, but cant say enough good things about Devcon. Be careful when buying the Devcon in the syringe though. There are several variants and even a "plastic welder", so make sure you get the right stuff. Also, the syringe is mixed 50/50 and the tubs is 3 parts steell to one part hardner I do quite bit of wine stoppers and key chains that require an epoxy bonded stone. I have always scuffed the backs of the stones on a 100 grit flat lap plate but the batch I am doing right now I think I will take die grinder and scuff the setting too. I have always used the "Devcon 5" two part epoxy but I ordered the plastic steel last night and will give it a try. My only worry is that the plastic steel is dark grey so I really need to be careful with it. Chuck
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Tom
fully equipped rock polisher
My dad Tom suddenly passed away yesterday, Just wanted his "rock" family to know.
Member since January 2013
Posts: 1,557
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Post by Tom on May 4, 2016 7:49:03 GMT -5
You set stones as you see fit, but sooner or later using glue will bite you in the butt with an unhappy customer somewhere down the road.
Arlen, if you go back and read my post you will see where I said I no longer use glue to set stones (exception repairs of cheap jewellery) I see fit to set the proper way! All I am saying is that there has to be times where glue needs to be used, and the key chains are a good example. No they are not fine silver jewellery but never the less the stone must be held in place.
What you say makes a ton of sense, if the glues break down the stone will get loose and that is not cool. I have repaired some cheap but still sterling rings that came from Mexico and were leveled with sand, not sawdust. It still managed to get loose and the stone fell out.
I just don't appreciate the blanket statements that this is the only way to do things and any other way than my way is incorrect, inferior and sh**ty. I teach electricians and I constantly tell them that this is the way I do it but there are other ways to do the same thing and my way is not the "right" way to do it, it is the way that works for me. I tell them the best way is the way that works for them.
BUT, what ever way they do it has to done with pride, excellent trademanship and up to code standards. I take extreme pride in my work.
We live we learn, I learned several years ago that using glue is not cool, but like I said I saw this one a site that is well known to the jewellery community and the jeweller definitely recommended E6000 as a cushion, I will try to find it. But from your guys experience I believe you that it breaks down and will lead to problems down the road.
What is the problem with 330? If 330 breaks down there is going to be a lot of seriously expensive doublet and triplets that are going to fall apart or are falling apart right now. I believe that is the standard glue used for triplets? I sure I can find something around here that I glued with cheap epoxy 40 years ago that is still holding together.
There are industrial glues used that will out last almost anything. So a blanket statement saying all glues break down is just not right.
I bet the finest jewelers in the world have had to cheat before, thats my story and I am sticking to it.
I do appreciate your experience's and sharing them with us newbie's, I think I have come a hell of a long way in 4 years of doing this as a hobby not full time. I will NEVER EVER learn it all, I will be lucky to learn 5%. So any and all help is appreciated from you pro's out there, and there are a few of you too!
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Post by rockjunquie on May 4, 2016 8:22:27 GMT -5
Yes, it is just as good for jewelry purposes. The stuff in the tubs seems to have a higher steel content, so is likely more suitable for industrial uses such as metal repair. I have used JB weld in a pinch with no problems, but cant say enough good things about Devcon. Be careful when buying the Devcon in the syringe though. There are several variants and even a "plastic welder", so make sure you get the right stuff. Also, the syringe is mixed 50/50 and the tubs is 3 parts steell to one part hardner I got the tube kind for doing tumbles. The package says equal parts hardener and steel. Just wanted to point that out. I'm a believer in it now. Can't say good enough about it.
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on May 4, 2016 8:39:25 GMT -5
Yes, it is just as good for jewelry purposes. The stuff in the tubs seems to have a higher steel content, so is likely more suitable for industrial uses such as metal repair. I have used JB weld in a pinch with no problems, but cant say enough good things about Devcon. Be careful when buying the Devcon in the syringe though. There are several variants and even a "plastic welder", so make sure you get the right stuff. Also, the syringe is mixed 50/50 and the tubs is 3 parts steell to one part hardner I got the tube kind for doing tumbles. What do you use glue for on tumbles? I have not seen you post much using tumbled stones. Chuck
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