Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2017 0:09:07 GMT -5
Round here, there's a step between "human caused" and "arson": "suspicious" Declaring "arson" means they have firm evidence of a crime (which sometimes only comes when a witness steps forward or an investigation has very clear evidence such as physical evidence of the method of ignition or fitting a previous firebug pattern). There've been a lot of past instances of jumping the gun and declaring arson when it was something else (accidents such as a faulty catalytic converter that looks very much like an arsonist setting multiple blazes along a road, rock slides, spontaneous combustion, etc.). Time it took an investigation to come to close was well over a year for one major fire near here, and even over 15 years later the conclusion is still disputed. On that one, it took a couple of months for investigators to have much on-ground preliminary access to the speculated multiple possible ignition points - hot and kept spreading in all directions with only a few points where retardant drops managed to save anything and nothing concrete left at the purported ignition sites. They've been doing controlled burns very late this year in the northwest, and it is possible that more of these may spark up if the sudden burst of hot weather continues. Already one burn has gotten out of bounds near the Lucky Strike mine, and they've decided to let it go and just try to keep it between some roads, but who knows this time of year. Lots of grass and other light fuels out there from the wet winter and spring that turn tinder-dry as soon as heat hits. Only 4% containment, but sounds like some progress is being made to secure Brian Head itself. Hope the winds keep it away.
|
|
|
Post by aDave on Jun 20, 2017 18:42:52 GMT -5
Round here, there's a step between "human caused" and "arson": "suspicious" Declaring "arson" means they have firm evidence of a crime (which sometimes only comes when a witness steps forward or an investigation has very clear evidence such as physical evidence of the method of ignition or fitting a previous firebug pattern). There've been a lot of past instances of jumping the gun and declaring arson when it was something else (accidents such as a faulty catalytic converter that looks very much like an arsonist setting multiple blazes along a road, rock slides, spontaneous combustion, etc.). Time it took an investigation to come to close was well over a year for one major fire near here, and even over 15 years later the conclusion is still disputed. On that one, it took a couple of months for investigators to have much on-ground preliminary access to the speculated multiple possible ignition points - hot and kept spreading in all directions with only a few points where retardant drops managed to save anything and nothing concrete left at the purported ignition sites. They've been doing controlled burns very late this year in the northwest, and it is possible that more of these may spark up if the sudden burst of hot weather continues. Already one burn has gotten out of bounds near the Lucky Strike mine, and they've decided to let it go and just try to keep it between some roads, but who knows this time of year. Lots of grass and other light fuels out there from the wet winter and spring that turn tinder-dry as soon as heat hits. Only 4% containment, but sounds like some progress is being made to secure Brian Head itself. Hope the winds keep it away. Interesting that "suspicious" is still being used to officially classify/categorize a fire (if that is actually happening), as it's use has been unaccepted for years. Down here, it's use revolves around informal discussion about a fire and the circumstances surrounding it. Years ago, fires could be classified as "suspicious," but not any longer. The national fire reporting system doesn't even include it as an option under "cause of ignition." Oh, and as far as gaining access to a fire (as you related), that's pretty amazing that it took so long to get boots on the ground. With my earlier statement, I was assuming an area of origin had been located and investigated. Regards. Dave
|
|
|
Post by coloradocliff on Jun 20, 2017 19:48:37 GMT -5
As a professional fire fighter Adave. What's your guess without more information? Fireworks and campfires around here, Course a lot were set by firefighters themselves that were under contract by the gov. You are down thereby Jamul where fire has always been renewing for thousands of years. We all remember yellow Stone some years back. aDave
|
|
|
Post by aDave on Jun 20, 2017 20:07:00 GMT -5
As a professional fire fighter Adave. What's your guess without more information? Fireworks and campfires around here, Course a lot were set by firefighters themselves that were under contract by the gov. You are down thereby Jamul where fire has always been renewing for thousands of years. We all remember yellow Stone some years back. aDave My guess about what? Is there a specific fire you had in mind, or are you asking about generalities? While that seems to be a challenging-type question, it's not intended to be. I'm just not sure what you're asking. I guess I'll clarify now for GP (general principle). Spent 34 years in the fire department. Last 23 years was as an arson investigator. So, if you're asking suppression questions, I'm probably not the best guy to ask. I can give you some basic principles, but my knowledge leans toward law enforcement and arson. If you're are asking about the fire that was raised in this thread, it seems it was the result of a controlled burn...becoming uncontrolled. As to fires being caused by (contract/volunteer) firefighters...it's been known to happen. Just not in the prevalence that one might be led to believe. Dave
|
|
|
Post by coloradocliff on Jun 20, 2017 20:16:28 GMT -5
As a professional fire fighter Adave. What's your guess without more information? Fireworks and campfires around here, Course a lot were set by firefighters themselves that were under contract by the gov. You are down thereby Jamul where fire has always been renewing for thousands of years. We all remember yellow Stone some years back. aDave My guess about what? Is there a specific fire you had in mind, or are you asking about generalities? While that seems to be a challenging-type question, it's not intended to be. I'm just not sure what you're asking. I guess I'll clarify now for GP (general principle). Spent 34 years in the fire department. Last 23 years was as an arson investigator. So, if you're asking suppression questions, I'm probably not the best guy to ask. I can give you some basic principles, but my knowledge leans toward law enforcement and arson. If you're are asking about the fire that was raised in this thread, it seems it was the result of a controlled burn...becoming uncontrolled. As to fires being caused by (contract/volunteer) firefighters...it's been known to happen. Just not in the prevalence that one might be led to believe. Dave This one on Brians Head. A lot of campers were there also. Controlled burn probably. Was curious about that angle because we don't always get the correct story and you would be the best because of your background. Not a lot of info to go on and all second hand. Controlled burn maybe.. No suspensions at all? I remember the Hayman fire that almost destroyed the front range of Colorado a few years back. Same down in Az I believe. Maybe being too suspicious. This was just such a nice area and beloved by a lot of rock hounds. Thanks Dave,
|
|
|
Post by aDave on Jun 20, 2017 20:21:19 GMT -5
My guess about what? Is there a specific fire you had in mind, or are you asking about generalities? While that seems to be a challenging-type question, it's not intended to be. I'm just not sure what you're asking. I guess I'll clarify now for GP (general principle). Spent 34 years in the fire department. Last 23 years was as an arson investigator. So, if you're asking suppression questions, I'm probably not the best guy to ask. I can give you some basic principles, but my knowledge leans toward law enforcement and arson. If you're are asking about the fire that was raised in this thread, it seems it was the result of a controlled burn...becoming uncontrolled. As to fires being caused by (contract/volunteer) firefighters...it's been known to happen. Just not in the prevalence that one might be led to believe. Dave This one on Brians Head. A lot of campers were there also. Controlled burn probably. Was curious about that angle because we don't always get the correct story and you would be the best because of your background. Not a lot of info to go on and all second hand. Controlled burn maybe.. No suspensions at all? I remember the Hayman fire that almost destroyed the front range of Colorado a few years back. Same down in Az I believe. Maybe being too suspicious. This was just such a nice area and beloved by a lot of rock hounds. Thanks Dave,
I'm thinking if they already released that this fire was the result of a "controlled burn," it probably is what it is. No agency would allow a specific fire cause to be released unless it was certain that was the issue. In this case, controlled burn - human caused. Dave
|
|
|
Post by coloradocliff on Jun 20, 2017 21:12:40 GMT -5
This one on Brians Head. A lot of campers were there also. Controlled burn probably. Was curious about that angle because we don't always get the correct story and you would be the best because of your background. Not a lot of info to go on and all second hand. Controlled burn maybe.. No suspensions at all? I remember the Hayman fire that almost destroyed the front range of Colorado a few years back. Same down in Az I believe. Maybe being too suspicious. This was just such a nice area and beloved by a lot of rock hounds. Thanks Dave,
I'm thinking if they already released that this fire was the result of a "controlled burn," it probably is what it is. No agency would allow a specific fire cause to be released unless it was certain that was the issue. In this case, controlled burn - human caused. Dave So very clear, They never release anything prematurely. Thanks Dave. Perfect view on the fire. Thank you..
|
|
|
Post by aDave on Jun 20, 2017 21:48:58 GMT -5
I'm thinking if they already released that this fire was the result of a "controlled burn," it probably is what it is. No agency would allow a specific fire cause to be released unless it was certain that was the issue. In this case, controlled burn - human caused. Dave So very clear, They never release anything prematurely. Thanks Dave. Perfect view on the fire. Thank you.. Ahh, therein lies the rub. Sometimes this stuff does get prematurely released and then things change down the road. We always held things close to vest until we were sure which way things were going to go. More often than not, we chose to say the fire was "under investigation." We did this so things could be substantiated or refuted. Not saying there is anything wrong with a proclamation out of the gate, but we always wanted to be pretty sure of our stance (cause wise) when it was officially released. This agency may have had wits who spoke to what happened. That's huge in the overall scope of things. Dave
|
|
|
Post by 1dave on Jun 21, 2017 14:14:52 GMT -5
The fire was started by "an individual with a weed burner."
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2017 15:45:13 GMT -5
I suppose "wits" is LEO speak for "witnesses".
|
|
|
Post by aDave on Jun 21, 2017 17:39:46 GMT -5
I suppose "wits" is LEO speak for "witnesses". Yep. Sorry. Old habit.
|
|
zarguy
fully equipped rock polisher
Cedar City, Utah - rockhound heaven!
Member since December 2005
Posts: 1,791
|
Post by zarguy on Jun 21, 2017 21:48:29 GMT -5
The Brian Head fire this afternoon. Shot from the south end of Cedar City. Lynn
|
|
Don
Cave Dweller
He wants you too, Malachi.
Member since December 2009
Posts: 2,616
|
Post by Don on Jun 22, 2017 9:51:32 GMT -5
wonder what all of that heat treated agate is going to look like?
|
|
Win
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2017
Posts: 336
|
Post by Win on Jun 23, 2017 10:45:03 GMT -5
The BH fire is a real shame, apparently started by a careless homeowner. I frequent that area all Summer and am more than a little upset at this. The Agate I collected off Brianhead is what got me to this Forum and into a little tumbling! I've photographed that area extensively, I'll have the pictures/memories but never see it like that again in my lifetime. I especially love 2nd Left Hand Canyon out of Parowan, I don't know how much of it burned but the fire did go through there. A couple from my files.
|
|
zarguy
fully equipped rock polisher
Cedar City, Utah - rockhound heaven!
Member since December 2005
Posts: 1,791
|
Post by zarguy on Jun 23, 2017 11:44:39 GMT -5
I heard that the area around Yankee Reservoir is toast. People I know camp there. Not anymore. Bummer. Lynn
|
|
|
Post by accidentalrockhound on Jun 23, 2017 13:36:03 GMT -5
Big fire getting smoke all the way to southeastern Colorado. Heard it was started by a guy burning leaves or something like that?
|
|
zarguy
fully equipped rock polisher
Cedar City, Utah - rockhound heaven!
Member since December 2005
Posts: 1,791
|
Post by zarguy on Jun 26, 2017 0:46:19 GMT -5
Some stupid with a flare gun Burned the place to the ground Lynn
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2017 9:37:13 GMT -5
I heard that the area around Yankee Reservoir is toast. People I know camp there. Not anymore. Bummer. Lynn Fire aren't forever. In a few years it will be gorgeous again
|
|
Fossilman
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2009
Posts: 20,681
|
Post by Fossilman on Jun 26, 2017 9:38:20 GMT -5
Some stupid with a flare gun Burned the place to the ground Lynn "Smoke on The Water"......Deep Purple.....
|
|
|
Post by parfive on Jun 28, 2017 22:28:02 GMT -5
When we turn the Forest Service over to the bird and bunny lovers and the tree huggers and the rock lickers, we've turned our history over. We are going to lose our wildlife and we are going to lose our scenery, the very thing you people wanted to try to protect. It's just plain stupidity.
Utah state Rep. Mike Noel
|
|