Wooferhound
Cave Dweller
Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,423
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Post by Wooferhound on Jan 28, 2022 18:14:58 GMT -5
No progress today. I did try and buy some 6 inch PVC Caps but the closest Home Depot only had 3 inch caps ... I bought 2 anyway. Yes the speaker coil is simple and effective and efficient and quiet and strong. Got another day off tomorrow and plan on working on some audio adapters for me and Jamesp to connect our oscillators to our speaker/tumblers. Probably go to a Plumbing supply store and get some 6 inch Endcaps, maybe start some rocks shaking
The most important things I had to prove in the beginning was ... Is a Speaker Voicecoil strong enough to shake a barrel and rocks weighing 8 pounds or more ... and that answer is a Huge Yes. Can a speaker be used and it won't get too loud ... that answer is also a Yes
Now it's time to get down to business and polish some rocks . . . hopefully
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Post by hummingbirdstones on Jan 28, 2022 22:14:04 GMT -5
No progress today. I did try and buy some 6 inch PVC Caps but the closest Home Depot only had 3 inch caps ... I bought 2 anyway. Yes the speaker coil is simple and effective and efficient and quiet and strong. Got another day off tomorrow and plan on working on some audio adapters for me and Jamesp to connect our oscillators to our speaker/tumblers. Probably go to a Plumbing supply store and get some 6 inch Endcaps, maybe start some rocks shaking The most important things I had to prove in the beginning was ... Is a Speaker Voicecoil strong enough to shake a barrel and rocks weighing 8 pounds or more ... and that answer is a Huge Yes. Can a speaker be used and it won't get too loud ... that answer is also a Yes Now it's time to get down to business and polish some rocks . . . hopefully I'm still intently watching all this happen.
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Wooferhound
Cave Dweller
Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,423
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Post by Wooferhound on Jan 29, 2022 10:07:42 GMT -5
I haven't Vibed rocks before so I must ask ... When the rocks are vibrating and Rolling/Mixing properly , does it require Grit & Water , or will they roll Dry ? Can I vibe Large & Small rocks together ?
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Post by knave on Jan 29, 2022 10:43:27 GMT -5
I haven't Vibed rocks before so I must ask ... When the rocks are vibrating and Rolling/Mixing properly , does it require Grit & Water , or will they roll Dry ? Can I vibe Large & Small rocks together ?
Softer rocks can be done dry with walnut hulls or such media. A couple of tablespoons water is enough for 3 lbs of rocks. A good mix of sizes is essential.
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,155
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Post by jamesp on Jan 29, 2022 11:07:03 GMT -5
Great findings Tim. So the power is there. Judging from the way a speaker can shake a room that is no surprise. You may be surprised to find it takes less power than imagined to do the best tumbling job. Stream rounded pea gravel takes little power. Might be an idea for a starting tumble.
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stuckinohio
starting to shine!
Member since September 2021
Posts: 31
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Post by stuckinohio on Jan 29, 2022 23:37:32 GMT -5
Like several others, I am now intellectually and emotionally invested in this journey and shall eagerly await the next installment. Especially with the amount of random unused speaker cabinets in my basement...Godspeed.
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Wooferhound
Cave Dweller
Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,423
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Post by Wooferhound on Jan 30, 2022 8:55:41 GMT -5
>> hummingbirdstones >> I'm still intently watching all this happen. >> Jamesp >> Great findings Tim. So the power is there. >> Stuckinohio >> I am now intellectually and emotionally invested in this journey and shall eagerly await the next installment. Oh yeah guys . . . I can't wait for the Next Update either !? Kinda busy looking Photo here, but this is where I got to yesterday. Tried to find some 6 inch PVC Endcaps on Saturday but the specialty stores were closed and Home Depot does not carry 6 inch PVC, ended up playing with one of the 3 inch endcaps that I got a few days ago. Cut out another piece of Plexiglass that can hold my Cap in a couple of positions on either side of center. Filled it full of rocks and tried to vibe it with my little 6 volt AC transformer. It was fairly powerful, but not enough, so I stopped playing and plan to focus my attention to getting my Function Generator (Oscillator) working, plus also making some Adapter cables so Jamesp and Me are able to get the Oscillator Tones out to some amplifiers and eventually into these machines. I have Monday and Tuesday off so maybe I can get the 6 inch caps and actually do something soon ?
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Post by hummingbirdstones on Jan 30, 2022 9:40:39 GMT -5
>> hummingbirdstones >> I'm still intently watching all this happen. >> Jamesp >> Great findings Tim. So the power is there. >> Stuckinohio >> I am now intellectually and emotionally invested in this journey and shall eagerly await the next installment. Oh yeah guys . . . I can't wait for the Next Update either !? Kinda busy looking Photo here, but this is where I got to yesterday. Tried to find some 6 inch PVC Endcaps on Saturday but the specialty stores were closed and Home Depot does not carry 6 inch PVC, ended up playing with one of the 3 inch endcaps that I got a few days ago. Cut out another piece of Plexiglass that can hold my Cap in a couple of positions on either side of center. Filled it full of rocks and tried to vibe it with my little 6 volt AC transformer. It was fairly powerful, but not enough, so I stopped playing and plan to focus my attention to getting my Function Generator (Oscillator) working, plus also making some Adapter cables so Jamesp and Me are able to get the Oscillator Tones out to some amplifiers and eventually into these machines. I have Monday and Tuesday off so maybe I can get the 6 inch caps and actually do something soon ? No pressure from me, Tim. I'm just enjoying watching the experiment unfold.
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,155
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Post by jamesp on Feb 1, 2022 6:27:21 GMT -5
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Wooferhound
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Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,423
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Post by Wooferhound on Feb 1, 2022 11:05:51 GMT -5
Was thinking that I had a couple of Function Generators (oscillators) But None of them work. The one on the bottom uses Vacuum Tubes and is older than the one that Jamesp recently got. It works but not good enough, plus it has tubes so it will use a lot of power. Have had the one on top for a year but did not have an odd powercord so it never got tested. I opened it up and soldered a power cord directly to it, but No Joy, only outputs static BK Precision 2MHz Function Generator 3011B So I went on eBay and bought one like this for almost $70. A very capable precision electronic instrument that is Way Overkill for a Vibe tumbler but can be used for otherthings too. Basicly this will be the brains of the operation. The setup is starting too look like a small Recording Studio Testing with my little 6 volt AC transformer was not enough so some real audio equipment is starting to get involved. Also my Function Generators don't work and won't have my new one for another week. Now generating my vibrations is a Pink Noise Generator, having it's signal increased using a Rackmount Mixer and then into a 500 watt amplifier. Pink Noise contains All the Audio frequencies equally, and sounds much like the static between TV or Radio stations. The high frequencies are not very powerful and just make it sound louder so I have my amplifier adjusted to only amplify low frequencies below 100 hz. This is working very good and can throw rocks out of the small 3 inch cap if I turn up the volume up to full. The Cap is too small to allow good motion too and I will get a bigger cap today. I feel like the random frequencies of pink noise aren't very effective at moving the rocks and a steady tone would work much better at moving the rocks around. Won't be able to try it out till my new oscillator gets here this weekend. And some Housekeeping Yesterday I made these audio adaptor boxes so Our Function Generators can easily be connected to Amplifers. One is mine and the other is for Jamesp. They have Banana Jacks on the input side but all the newer Function Generators have BNC Outputs now, including the one that I just bought. So I will be removing the Banana Jacks and crimping on some BNC connectors. Just now starting to Have Fun . . .
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,155
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Post by jamesp on Feb 5, 2022 6:47:08 GMT -5
Nice purchase. Looks like a helpful addition to the sound lab. I assume that device will generate a broad range of multiple signals ? Man I appreciate you making the connection device. No need to use your valuable time making components for me. I am just happy to see you using your valuable know how on this project. But I do appreciate it since I have no idea what I need ! Notes and observations for what it is worth: EBAY has a bunch of old signal generators for sale. Problem - many of them either don't work or are being sold for parts. Most are so old they use vacuum tubes and probably won't work for full time operation. Don't you think modern cheaper dedicated solid state signal generator units should easily be rated for continuous duty ? Here is a side view mechanical drawing of the Mini-Sonic design. Again, note the electromagnet passes thru an air gap(no contact) to the horseshoe spring. : Here are some motor wattages for various motor driven vibes if they help. Maybe this will give you an idea of power requirements per pound of rock. The closest similar machine would be the Mini-Sonic and it does not give power rating. Anyone know? Loto - .07hp/52 watts for 4 pounds UV10 - 1/30hp/25 watts for 10 pounds UV18 - 1/20hp/37 watts for 18 pounds Vibrasonic - .33hp/246 watts for up to 100 pounds at 100% counterweight setting Tim - When I hooked up the 25 watt Bass Shaker to the amp I had to turn the volume up to about 60% to get what seemed to be a healthy vibe level mechanical vibration. It was connected to the 'A' channel. It is a 190 watt amp. I am guessing that one (A) channel would be 190/2 = 95 watts. At 60% volume it would seem that the Bass Shaker was pulling(very) roughly 60 watts(or the amp is making up to 60 watts available when needed) ? Lol, I have no idea as this is way out of my bailiwick. Connecting a 25 watt 'speaker' to aprox. 100 amps seems spokey, perhaps the Bass Shaker only draws what it needs...
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
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Post by jamesp on Feb 5, 2022 7:59:37 GMT -5
Check out this signal generator Wooferhound. It has a display to tell what type of vibration and it's parameters for $27. Would this be a good economical choice for a hobbyist's vibe controller after he added an amp ? Looks like a coax cable is used to feed the amp. www.ebay.com/itm/174468420178
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Wooferhound
Cave Dweller
Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,423
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Post by Wooferhound on Feb 6, 2022 19:46:46 GMT -5
Nice purchase. Looks like a helpful addition to the sound lab. I assume that device will generate a broad range of multiple signals ? Man I appreciate you making the connection device. No need to use your valuable time making components for me. I am just happy to see you using your valuable know how on this project. But I do appreciate it since I have no idea what I need ! Notes and observations for what it is worth: EBAY has a bunch of old signal generators for sale. Problem - many of them either don't work or are being sold for parts. Most are so old they use vacuum tubes and probably won't work for full time operation. Don't you think modern cheaper dedicated solid state signal generator units should easily be rated for continuous duty ? Here are some motor wattages for various motor driven vibes if they help. Maybe this will give you an idea of power requirements per pound of rock. The closest similar machine would be the Mini-Sonic and it does not give power rating. Anyone know? Loto - .07hp/52 watts for 4 pounds UV10 - 1/30hp/25 watts for 10 pounds UV18 - 1/20hp/37 watts for 18 pounds Vibrasonic - .33hp/246 watts for up to 100 pounds at 100% counterweight setting Tim - When I hooked up the 25 watt Bass Shaker to the amp I had to turn the volume up to about 60% to get what seemed to be a healthy vibe level mechanical vibration. It was connected to the 'A' channel. It is a 190 watt amp. I am guessing that one (A) channel would be 190/2 = 95 watts. At 60% volume it would seem that the Bass Shaker was pulling(very) roughly 60 watts(or the amp is making up to 60 watts available when needed) ? Lol, I have no idea as this is way out of my bailiwick. Connecting a 25 watt 'speaker' to aprox. 100 amps seems spokey, perhaps the Bass Shaker only draws what it needs...
Oh Yeah , I can't wait to get this fancy Signal Generator from eBay. Supposed to produce frequencies between .2 hz to 2 mhz using Sine, Square or Triangle waves with an output level up to 5 volts at 50 ohms. Was supposed to get here yesterday but it didn't make it, hopefully tomorrow (monday).
A Tube-type Function Generator would be OK as a signal maker but each tube uses 25 watts of power just for the Heater Filament, and the tube needs replacing every few years. Solid-state is definitely the way to go, and yes, they would be great for Continuous use.
Looking at the Vibe motor Wattages , it looks like I should be aiming for 50 to 100 watts for efficient tumbling power.
Estimating audio power from an amplifier based on it's rated power and the position of the volume control is impossible. Here are a few reasons ...
-- Audio power is not Linear, it is Exponential. If my amplifier is producing 10 watts of power and I want to Double the volume from the speaker, the power will need to be increased 4 Times to 40 watts for the volume to double. The Volume Control (potentiometer) on an amplifier has a special Audio Taper which does this automatically, ramping up slowly in the beginning and then rapidly at the end of travel.
-- In Physics we learn that -Everytime you double the frequency, you also double the Energy-. Humans can hear 10 octaves of sound, each octave is double the frequency. So when amplifying sound you only need half the power in each octave as you go up. So if you have 512 watts in the Lowest octave, you will only need 1 watt in the highest octave.
-- In No Way does the position of the Volume Control represent the percentage of amplifier power that you are getting. Your output power is based on the amount of Input Signal coming in. If your Volume Control is all the way up, and you are getting Full amplifier power, you could reduce the Control which decreases the volume/power, then you could increase you input signal enough to get Full Power again without the control being Topped Out.
-- Speaker Ohm ratings control how much power the Amplifier puts out. Speakers are almost always rated either 4 or 8 ohms, rarely different. A 4 ohm speaker will pull 2 times more power from the amp than the 8 ohm speaker at the same volume control setting.
If you are a Sound Guy, these are some of the first things learned . . .
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Wooferhound
Cave Dweller
Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,423
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Post by Wooferhound on Feb 6, 2022 20:10:38 GMT -5
Check out this signal generator Wooferhound . It has a display to tell what type of vibration and it's parameters for $27. Would this be a good economical choice for a hobbyist's vibe controller after he added an amp ? Looks like a coax cable is used to feed the amp. www.ebay.com/itm/174468420178
Yes I was perusing eBay for Cheap and Good function generators All of these Plastic Box generators between $25 and $40 looked great, and better than the cheaper Circuit Boards offered Yes the BNC coax connector. Usually used for Coax I have the tool that crimps those connectors and I should have some connectors here somewhere, might take a minute to find it all ?
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Wooferhound
Cave Dweller
Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,423
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Post by Wooferhound on Feb 6, 2022 20:30:07 GMT -5
I haven't done much on this project because I still don't have the Signal Generator that I ordered from eBay. Had mentioned earlier that my oscillators don't work properly and I don't like the effects that I'm getting from a Pink Noise Generator.
I got a 6 inch PVC pipe endcap for over $35 but it's really too big and the wall thickness is 3/8 inch which makes it heavy. Thought about cutting it down some or I could make a smaller endcap work better, perhaps a 4 inch cap ? Also got a $14 fancy toilet plunger that has some great chances of becoming a Rock Hopper, much lighter and so springy. I want to take a little different route with the same idea, but the structure shouldn't be so stiff and heavy ?
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,155
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Post by jamesp on Feb 7, 2022 7:58:39 GMT -5
Between you me and the wall the mechanical design may present challenges Tim. I keep milling over designs to convert linear motion to oval/circular vibratory motion. Mini-Sonic accomplished it with relative simplicity so it is certainly doable. There is basically two vibe designs: The donut/bowl hopper(see UV and Thumler's) probably won't be easy to vibrate with a linear shaker. Where as the Mini-Sonic, Vibrasonic and industrial tub vibes are all simple horizontal cylinders with an opening on top for ingress/egress. Donut/bowl hoppers are vibrated on a shaft extension attached on the bottom with an attached motor spinning an offset weight. It is more of a 3 dimensional vibration. A horizontal cylinder vibe is much closer to 2 dimensional(circular or oval)movement. Since I am so green on the controller side I will do my best to put my steel fabrication experience to use. Without having a controller for my shaker it will be a bit of a challenge to move forward with the steel design. I ordered the $27 signal unit above with an LED to tell what setting the thing is on. Got a stereo amp.. I got bunches of steel pipe from 5 to 8 inches in diameter and sheet steel to install end caps. Maybe I can get something going. I also had ordered extra Mini-Sonic barrels years ago - plumb forgot about them ! I would be glad to send you one. That way you will have a fine horizontal cylinder hopper that holds a conservative 4 pounds. Not so heavy. Has rubber cap. Starting small probably best. I was going to make a 6-pack hopper mount(VSV-24 below)for 6 Mini-Sonic hoppers to install on Vibrasonic. so the reason for ordering extra Mini-Sonic hoppers:
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Post by RickB on Feb 9, 2022 19:46:34 GMT -5
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,155
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Post by jamesp on Feb 10, 2022 14:39:47 GMT -5
New way to lose weight at 2 minutes RickB.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,155
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Post by jamesp on Feb 11, 2022 9:23:38 GMT -5
Wooferhound I bought both the $27 and $12 signal generators. The $12 was complete, no soldering but did not include 110VAC - 9 to 12 VDC power supply with 5.5mm jack. Have not received nicer $27 unit. I took a photo of the factory assembled $12 unit and found a video on using it. Photo. Note green jumpers for 10 to 100hz, 100 to 1000hz, 1000 to 10,000hz, etc., another jumper for sine or triangle wave. Adjustable amplitude and fine/coarse frequency knobs. Output to amp is blue terminal strip, ground and either sine or triangle or square wave. Black 5.5mm power supply jack at top. Tiny and well made, real nice build. Starting at 7 minutes operation is shown when connected to oscilloscope. Does nice 10hz to 100hz sine wave. At higher amplitude on sine wave it clips the top of sine wave - nice for gentle reversals to protect rocks.
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Wooferhound
Cave Dweller
Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,423
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Post by Wooferhound on Feb 11, 2022 9:44:01 GMT -5
Wooferhound I bought both the $27 and $12 signal generators. The $12 was complete, no soldering but did not include 110VAC - 9 to 12 VDC power supply with 5.5mm jack. Have not received nicer $27 unit. I took a photo of the factory assembled $12 unit and found a video on using it. Photo. Note green jumpers for 10 to 100hz, 100 to 1000hz, 1000 to 10,000hz, etc., another jumper for sine or triangle wave. Adjustable amplitude and fine/coarse frequency knobs. Output to amp is blue terminal strip, ground and either sine or triangle or square wave. Black 5.5mm power supply jack at top. Tiny and well made, real nice build. Starting at 7 minutes operation is shown when connected to oscilloscope. Does nice 10hz to 100hz sine wave. At higher amplitude on sine wave it clips the top of sine wave - nice for gentle reversals to protect rocks.
Too Cool ! ! I guess I need to make you another audio adapter for the Circuit Board. They don't appear to care much about the voltage you give to them as long as it is between 5 and 12 volts. I have plenty of WallWart Power Supplies too. Will send a few of those.
That board is very cheap and absolutely great for what we are trying to do with these Shakers. My Function Generator has not arrived and and it may not come. The last 2 Feedback for the Seller describe him as a thief. Just might order a couple of the Circuit Boards since they are reviewed well on YouTube.
I want to move this project along as best as I can. Have been feeling so slow in the last week and don't want to do anything when I get off from work. Plenty of ideas on how to make this thing more efficient, and have the parts on-hand, just need to do it.
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