jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 11, 2022 10:46:52 GMT -5
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 11, 2022 11:21:59 GMT -5
Wooferhound I bought both the $27 and $12 signal generators. The $12 was complete, no soldering but did not include 110VAC - 9 to 12 VDC power supply with 5.5mm jack. Have not received nicer $27 unit. I took a photo of the factory assembled $12 unit and found a video on using it. Photo. Note green jumpers for 10 to 100hz, 100 to 1000hz, 1000 to 10,000hz, etc., another jumper for sine or triangle wave. Adjustable amplitude and fine/coarse frequency knobs. Output to amp is blue terminal strip, ground and either sine or triangle or square wave. Black 5.5mm power supply jack at top. Tiny and well made, real nice build. Starting at 7 minutes operation is shown when connected to oscilloscope. Does nice 10hz to 100hz sine wave. At higher amplitude on sine wave it clips the top of sine wave - nice for gentle reversals to protect rocks. Too Cool ! ! I guess I need to make you another audio adapter for the Circuit Board. They don't appear to care much about the voltage you give to them as long as it is between 5 and 12 volts. I have plenty of WallWart Power Supplies too. Will send a few of those.
That board is very cheap and absolutely great for what we are trying to do with these Shakers. My Function Generator has not arrived and and it may not come. The last 2 Feedback for the Seller describe him as a thief. Just might order a couple of the Circuit Boards since they are reviewed well on YouTube.
I want to move this project along as best as I can. Have been feeling so slow in the last week and don't want to do anything when I get off from work. Plenty of ideas on how to make this thing more efficient, and have the parts on-hand, just need to do it.
No hurry is there ? I'd take your time. Better ideas usually come in dreams or when under influence ! I was blown away by the little function generator. Such a neat little package. It sure looks like it would do the job, good to have you give your seal. When you begin to mass produce the first thousand 'The Super Vibe' units it may be the generator to use ! No need to make any connectors for me as I will use the other $27 unit with readout and coaxial type plug connector. Thanks. Can you tell me where I connect the 2 output wires from the signal generator to the stereo amp ? Photo:
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 11, 2022 11:46:19 GMT -5
Tim, I can send you the clamping shroud and Mini-Sonic hopper. It might be better to wait. I have not done any kinematic linkage engineering yet. It would be best on my end to do some quick welded/quick removed linkage arrangements first so I can test the geometry to arrive at the best rock motion using the bass generator. a functioning geometry to get the rocks to 'roll' in the hopper may take a good many attempts. It is easy for me to do the prototype using the versatility of welder and my scrap steel supply. I am hoping to weld up a system that is coil spring free. Like clamping a 12 inch ruler to the table so that you have an 11 inch 'diving board' sticking out with shaker mounted half way down it to serve as the spring. Something like that using a stick of 2 inch wide by 1/8 inch thick strip steel. Or combinations of cantilevered strip steel welded to the clamping shroud. Welds work great since they are so resilient to coming apart under vibration. basic linkage systems: clamping shroud made from 6 inch thin wall steel pipe. rugged...bit heavy
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Wooferhound
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Post by Wooferhound on Feb 11, 2022 19:03:57 GMT -5
Too Cool ! ! I guess I need to make you another audio adapter for the Circuit Board. They don't appear to care much about the voltage you give to them as long as it is between 5 and 12 volts. I have plenty of WallWart Power Supplies too. Will send a few of those.
>>> No hurry is there ? I'd take your time. Better ideas usually come in dreams or when under influence !
I am definitely Influenced Tonight
>>> When you begin to mass produce the first thousand 'The Super Vibe' units it may be the generator to use !
I am a heavy user on the message Forum that Peavey runs. They make 1000 watt speakers with heavy duty 4 inch Voicecoils which would be much more appropriate to make vibe tumblers out of. I would like Peavey to get involved with making Rock Tumblers because their speakers & Amplifiers are not expensive. Plus they have the ability to put it all together into a functioning Manufactured model, especially if I have it all worked out and can show them How to do it.
>>> No need to make any connectors for me as I will use the other $27 unit with readout and coaxial type plug connector. Thanks.
James ... I consider you an accomplished Maker/Creator. It's funny to me that you don't understand the need for an Adapter to go between the coax BNC/Terminals output on the Oscillator, and the Phono/RCA input jack on you home stereo amplifier. I've already made the adapter for you with outputs to RCA/Phono for home stereo amps, and it also has 1/4 inch Output for professional amplifiers, but I need to do some small modification on it to provide the bare wire Outputs from the Terminal strip on your Oscillator Circuit Board, and also the BNC Output from your Fancy Oscillator. It will all be completely clear when you get it in the mail.
>>> Can you tell me where I connect the 2 output wires from the signal generator to the stereo amp ?
The 2 wires from your Oscillator Circuit board should be adapted to Phono/RCA connectors and then they could be plugged into any -Left- input on your Home Stereo amp.
Video 1 - Video 2 - Tape - CD , then select that input on the front panel and use the -Left- speaker output wires to your Shaker. The Volume on the Amplifier is the Amount/Amplitude of the Vibration.
The unused -Right- channel can be used for a second Tumbler.
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Wooferhound
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Post by Wooferhound on Feb 11, 2022 19:18:44 GMT -5
OMG, check out this $30 oscilloscope. What next ?
I missed this post . . . Bought one of those with a separate plastic case, over a year ago when they were $24. It became Nonfunctional when I tried to install it into the case and ended up trashing it, but it worked wonderfully down in the Audio frequencies and the display looked great.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 12, 2022 11:13:33 GMT -5
Lol, you are dealing with an ME and not an EE Wooferhound. Mechanical guys suck at electrical lol. Cancel the $12 generator Tim, this is the $27 generator with female (AV ?) cord output connector. At least it has a display to tell what type and amplitude signal is being output ! It apparently operates on 5 to 10 VDC. Note it came with a USB power cable. A USB power converter typically puts out 5 VDC at 1.5 amps. What do you think about this unit/set-up ?
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 12, 2022 14:14:39 GMT -5
About the same power as a 50 watt light bulb. 3 pounds of tumbles, could have been 10 pounds. Way overpowered for 3 pounds. Doing it to AC-DC.
With a function generator you can force 100% bass vibrations, or 100% midrange or tweet level inputs. Dial in bass or treble or tweeter level vibrations to get the desired motion for you rocks.
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Post by HankRocks on Feb 12, 2022 16:16:51 GMT -5
About the same power as a 50 watt light bulb. 3 pounds of tumbles, could have been 10 pounds. Way overpowered for 3 pounds. Doing it to AC-DC. With a function generator you can force 100% bass vibrations, or 100% midrange or tweet level inputs. Dial in bass or treble or tweeter level vibrations to get the desired motion for you rocks. I think if you try the same thing with Zeppelin's song "Rock And Roll" you might just do some damage. That glass might not hold up to Bonham's work!!!
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Wooferhound
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Post by Wooferhound on Feb 12, 2022 19:07:49 GMT -5
Lol, you are dealing with an ME and not an EE Wooferhound . Mechanical guys suck at electrical lol. Cancel the $12 generator Tim, this is the $27 generator with female (AV ?) cord output connector. At least it has a display to tell what type and amplitude signal is being output ! It apparently operates on 5 to 10 VDC. Note it came with a USB power cable. A USB power converter typically puts out 5 VDC at 1.5 amps. What do you think about this unit/set-up ? You will need to get this
BNC Male -to- Phono Female Adapter to convert to standard stereo cables for ease of use
Or I promise to mail you one Monday Morning
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,155
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Post by jamesp on Feb 13, 2022 12:27:57 GMT -5
Lol, you are dealing with an ME and not an EE Wooferhound . Mechanical guys suck at electrical lol. Cancel the $12 generator Tim, this is the $27 generator with female (AV ?) cord output connector. At least it has a display to tell what type and amplitude signal is being output ! It apparently operates on 5 to 10 VDC. Note it came with a USB power cable. A USB power converter typically puts out 5 VDC at 1.5 amps. What do you think about this unit/set-up ? You will need to get this
BNC Male -to- Phono Female Adapter to convert to standard stereo cables for ease of use Or I promise to mail you one Monday Morning
That would be a big help Tim. Such connectors get complicated. Thanks.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 13, 2022 13:16:52 GMT -5
About the same power as a 50 watt light bulb. 3 pounds of tumbles, could have been 10 pounds. Way overpowered for 3 pounds. Doing it to AC-DC. With a function generator you can force 100% bass vibrations, or 100% midrange or tweet level inputs. Dial in bass or treble or tweeter level vibrations to get the desired motion for you rocks. I think if you try the same thing with Zeppelin's song "Rock And Roll" you might just do some damage. That glass might not hold up to Bonham's work!!! So true. When using a signal generator 100% large high amplitude/lower frequency bass vibration can be chosen Henry. That would cancel out all other mid/high range vibrations and send only bass vibrations if desired. That situation would likely damage tumbles. It will be interesting to see what type of amplitude/frequency 'music' lends itself to perfect vibe tumbling. It looks like the mechanical part I will build is going to be very different from the standard vibe lol. I may ask your opinions on how to go about doing a mechanical set up. I am trying to avoid coil springs all together similar to Tim's sheet plastic design mounted to his prototype speaker set up. like this Henry ?, Wooferhound ?, other members ?, ideas ?, help: a heavy steel base. a 12" long strip of 2" x 1/8" welded to the base at a 45 degree angle to horizontal. the say left side of the hopper clamping container welded to the other end of this 45 angled strip. another 12" strip of 2" x 1/8" strip welded to the right side of the steel hopper container also at 'some' angle but cantilevered. This strip will have the bass shaker face mounted to the end of the cantilever. Theory - Gravity pulls down vertically on the rocks, the rocks are pivoting at a 45 degree angle to the vertical force of gravity hopefully causing a shift/shuffle/advancement at each vibration creating an incremental rolling movement in the cylindrical shaped hopper. experimentally changing the angles of the strip steel until maximum 'increment shifting' occurs for rock motion/mixing. hopper clamp:
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Post by oregon on Feb 13, 2022 13:48:27 GMT -5
I am trying to avoid coil springs all together Any particular reason for this? Vibrasonic,minisonic, loto (sorta) all use them...
These tumblers all have asymmetrical constraints which I imagine contributes to the rolling motion. Seems like mounting your shaker off to the side should provide the offset for the motion?
Do you need the "45" anchor point on the left? (Thinking out loud) what about just having the hopper suspended from a frame, with your shaker mounting tab off to the side? Not sure, there's probably a reason to have the bowl more constrained? certainly easy to try while you're constructing the 45 design. It'd be nice to compact that design some, maybe the 45 leg could go straight down after a short horizontal run, or even wrap back around under the hopper ala the "J" bar of the minisonic...
(Thumlers vibe (which I don't have) but folks seem to like it a lot - this vibrates in a horizontal direction rather than vertical , food for thought)
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Post by HankRocks on Feb 13, 2022 13:54:32 GMT -5
I think if you try the same thing with Zeppelin's song "Rock And Roll" you might just do some damage. That glass might not hold up to Bonham's work!!! So true. When using a signal generator 100% large high amplitude/lower frequency bass vibration can be chosen Henry. That would cancel out all other mid/high range vibrations and send only bass vibrations if desired. That situation would likely damage tumbles. It will be interesting to see what type of amplitude/frequency 'music' lends itself to perfect vibe tumbling. It looks like the mechanical part I will build is going to be very different from the standard vibe lol. I may ask your opinions on how to go about doing a mechanical set up. I am trying to avoid coil springs all together similar to Tim's sheet plastic design mounted to his prototype speaker set up. like this Henry ?, Wooferhound ?, other members ?, ideas ?, help: a heavy steel base. a 12" long strip of 2" x 1/8" welded to the base at a 45 degree angle to horizontal. the say left side of the hopper clamping container welded to the other end of this 45 angled strip. another 12" strip of 2" x 1/8" strip welded to the right side of the steel hopper container also at 'some' angle but cantilevered. This strip will have the bass shaker face mounted to the end of the cantilever. Theory - Gravity pulls down vertically on the rocks, the rocks are pivoting at a 45 degree angle to the vertical force of gravity hopefully causing a shift/shuffle/advancement at each vibration creating an incremental rolling movement in the cylindrical shaped hopper. experimentally changing the angles of the strip steel until maximum 'increment shifting' occurs for rock motion/mixing. hopper clamp: I definitely like the the "no motor" approach. Vibration is the way to go. You are somewhat copying the Mini-Sonic. It seems to me that there needs to be some sort of adjustable spring connection between the end of the cantilever and the base. Just seems that the hopper with rocks vibrating will cause too much vibration on the end of the cantilever where the vib mechanism is mounted. It's is something that can be added after initial testing. Just don't want you re-creating Nikola Tesla's Mechanical Oscillator, the legendary "Earthquake Machine". If I hear of any tremors in north Georgia area I know what happened!!!
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 13, 2022 14:31:47 GMT -5
I am trying to avoid coil springs all together Any particular reason for this? Vibrasonic,minisonic, loto (sorta) all use them... These tumblers all have asymmetrical constraints which I imagine contributes to the rolling motion. Seems like mounting your shaker off to the side should provide the offset for the motion? Do you need the "45" anchor point on the left? (Thinking out loud) what about just having the hopper suspended from a frame, with your shaker mounting tab off to the side? Not sure, there's probably a reason to have the bowl more constrained? certainly easy to try while you're constructing the 45 design. It'd be nice to compact that design some, maybe the 45 leg could go straight down after a short horizontal run, or even wrap back around under the hopper ala the "J" bar of the minisonic...
(Thumlers vibe (which I don't have) but folks seem to like it a lot - this vibrates in a horizontal direction rather than vertical , food for thought) Avoiding 4 coil springs oregon ? I find them difficult to fasten. That's the only reason. And if they are too stiff/too loose they need to be replaced with stiffer/softer springs. At least I can alter the spring constant(deflection in pounds per inch) by cutting the strip steel shorter/longer and re-welding. So easy to cut off and shorten and re-weld. Or cut off, and re-weld a longer piece. All those are strong concerns. I am aware of you mentioning the side mounted tab for the shaker using the Vibrasonic base. It is similar to what you mentioned above. I was thinking the 45 degree angle to the downward force of gravity would help 'roll' the rocks. No matter, again I can cut it off and re-weld to change to any angle... The 'strip spring' idea is born from a Porsche suspension design where the swing arms for the front wheels are mounted fixed to a torsion spring, basically a solid shaft fixed on the ends, the bumps are absorbed by twisting the shaft. No coil springs are used on this design(or minimal ones). The J-spring is dandy and compact but I lack a bending machine. I could do the bend with the torch but it may turn out ugly ! Let me toss a prototype out there for attack. I invite it. Please stay with me.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 13, 2022 14:38:05 GMT -5
So true. When using a signal generator 100% large high amplitude/lower frequency bass vibration can be chosen Henry. That would cancel out all other mid/high range vibrations and send only bass vibrations if desired. That situation would likely damage tumbles. It will be interesting to see what type of amplitude/frequency 'music' lends itself to perfect vibe tumbling. It looks like the mechanical part I will build is going to be very different from the standard vibe lol. I may ask your opinions on how to go about doing a mechanical set up. I am trying to avoid coil springs all together similar to Tim's sheet plastic design mounted to his prototype speaker set up. like this Henry ?, Wooferhound ?, other members ?, ideas ?, help: a heavy steel base. a 12" long strip of 2" x 1/8" welded to the base at a 45 degree angle to horizontal. the say left side of the hopper clamping container welded to the other end of this 45 angled strip. another 12" strip of 2" x 1/8" strip welded to the right side of the steel hopper container also at 'some' angle but cantilevered. This strip will have the bass shaker face mounted to the end of the cantilever. Theory - Gravity pulls down vertically on the rocks, the rocks are pivoting at a 45 degree angle to the vertical force of gravity hopefully causing a shift/shuffle/advancement at each vibration creating an incremental rolling movement in the cylindrical shaped hopper. experimentally changing the angles of the strip steel until maximum 'increment shifting' occurs for rock motion/mixing. hopper clamp: I definitely like the the "no motor" approach. Vibration is the way to go. You are somewhat copying the Mini-Sonic. It seems to me that there needs to be some sort of adjustable spring connection between the end of the cantilever and the base. Just seems that the hopper with rocks vibrating will cause too much vibration on the end of the cantilever where the vib mechanism is mounted. It's is something that can be added after initial testing. Just don't want you re-creating Nikola Tesla's Mechanical Oscillator, the legendary "Earthquake Machine". If I hear of any tremors in north Georgia area I know what happened!!! It may end up that even a poorly designed spring set up can be dialed in to work with the super flexible vibration controls Henry.(i.e. to cancel the need for mechanical adjustments within reason of course). Like I told oregon I can change geometry quickly with a plasma cutter to remove and a welder to reattach. Moving the vib mechanism is not much of an issue either.... Please stay on it, I need these ideas. Easy for me to implement changes.
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Post by holajonathan on Feb 13, 2022 14:41:29 GMT -5
Here are some motor wattages for various motor driven vibes if they help. Maybe this will give you an idea of power requirements per pound of rock. The closest similar machine would be the Mini-Sonic and it does not give power rating. Anyone know?
Loto - .07hp/52 watts for 4 pounds UV10 - 1/30hp/25 watts for 10 pounds UV18 - 1/20hp/37 watts for 18 pounds Vibrasonic - .33hp/246 watts for up to 100 pounds at 100% counterweight setting I'm not sure if you got an answer to your question about current draw for the Mini-Sonic, but I remember testing it with a Kill-O-Watt meter and it used almost no power. 10w or less at full power, as I recall. I can re-test today and give you an exact number, but I remember thinking that it was much more efficient than the Lot-O, which uses about 100w to move a little less than twice as many rocks.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 13, 2022 15:30:36 GMT -5
Here are some motor wattages for various motor driven vibes if they help. Maybe this will give you an idea of power requirements per pound of rock. The closest similar machine would be the Mini-Sonic and it does not give power rating. Anyone know?
Loto - .07hp/52 watts for 4 pounds UV10 - 1/30hp/25 watts for 10 pounds UV18 - 1/20hp/37 watts for 18 pounds Vibrasonic - .33hp/246 watts for up to 100 pounds at 100% counterweight setting I'm not sure if you got an answer to your question about current draw for the Mini-Sonic, but I remember testing it with a Kill-O-Watt meter and it used almost no power. 10w or less at full power, as I recall. I can re-test today and give you an exact number, but I remember thinking that it was much more efficient than the Lot-O, which uses about 100w to move a little less than twice as many rocks. Great info Jonathan. Your comparison of the Mini to the Lot-O is legitimate. Early tests are showing the solenoid/electromagnetic delivers a bunch of punch for the amount of power used. The numerous coils of a motor are burning power that is not directly transferred to pure vibration in sorts (I think). Remember how a 100 watt stereo would about crack windows in a large room. 100 watts = a Lot-O apparently.
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Wooferhound
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Post by Wooferhound on Feb 13, 2022 17:52:08 GMT -5
You will need to get this
BNC Male -to- Phono Female Adapter to convert to standard stereo cables for ease of use Or I promise to mail you one Monday Morning That would be a big help Tim. Such connectors get complicated. Thanks.
I have modified the adapters that I made so that you can use both of the function generators that you will have. Plus I also bought both of those same 2 function generators. The good one comes from China and the Circuit Board comes from New Jersey. Sending a Power supply for the smaller Oscillator you already have.
Also made another adapter so you may use your older larger Oscillator too. This will be a Surprise box with a buncha stuff that I had extra laying around. Feel free to discard anything you can't use. Already packed up , addressed and going out sometime early Monday.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 13, 2022 18:39:47 GMT -5
That would be a big help Tim. Such connectors get complicated. Thanks. I have modified the adapters that I made so that you can use both of the function generators that you will have. Plus I also bought both of those same 2 function generators. The good one comes from China and the Circuit Board comes from New Jersey. Sending a Power supply for the smaller Oscillator you already have.
Also made another adapter so you may use your older larger Oscillator too. This will be a Surprise box with a buncha stuff that I had extra laying around. Feel free to discard anything you can't use. Already packed up , addressed and going out sometime early Monday.
Those items will be a big help. Thanks. You covered the gamut. The white unit with the USB power supply made good sense; not many power supplies are that cheap nor that common. The back of the amp even has an auxiliary 110 VAC plug to connect the power supply ! I got off my duff and got started on a prototype. I have a series of short videos illustrating vibration behavior with the components used. The materials were scrap items in large supply in the steel yard. By shortening the flexible connecting/support strips the vibration amplitude can easily be shortened and sped up. This may be necessary. Here is what I came up with, the short videos are loading. Will post them tonight. If it works after testing I will send you a twin unit. Bass shaker mount and exciter arm: Material selection: Final prototype-able unit. The exciter arm to the right could be shortened. The spring arm on the left can be shortened to stiffen the spring until it vibrates efficiently at 30hz to 200hz. At present length the spring arm seems too long and floppy and better for 2hz to 4hz. The videos will explain. The 45 degree angled(to gravity) spring arm throws small gravel in one direction meaning the tumbles should all rotate for good mixing. That was a victory.
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Post by holajonathan on Feb 13, 2022 18:55:27 GMT -5
jamesp I got actual numbers on the Mini Sonic and my memory was incorrect. Here are readings with dial in -- 1. Off position (1w of vampire power) . 2. Lowest power (5w) - test load not moving. 3. Mid power (11w) -- test load moving at a moderate rate 4. Highest power (27w) -- test load moving violently (no slurry to slow things down) I usually run it around mid-power, which is why I remembered the "around 10w" number. To me, this calls into question whether the fundamental design is any more efficient than the Lot-O. My conclusion is that the fundamental design of the Lot-O is much MORE efficient than the Mini-Sonic. Let me explain... With the Lot-O, the fundamental question regarding efficiency is whether an unbalanced rotating mass + springs is an efficient way to make vibrations and transfer them to the load in the barrels. (The answer appears to be YES!). The Lot-O's big efficiency problem is not a fundamental design problem, but rather, it's shaded pole induction motor. Shaded pole motors are low-drama work horses that are also very inefficient -- around 25% efficient. So if the Lot-O uses 100w, 75w are lost as heat and 25W is the output power of the motor. 25w = 1/30 hp -- not a ton of power. My twin barrel Lot-O moves two barrels full of rocks while only drawing around 100w. It uses the same motor as the single barrel Lot-O, it just uses different fans with heavier weights. In the case of the twin barrel Lot-O, it is churching 15 pounds of rocks + media using about 25w of output power. Some of the torque generated by those 25w is overcoming the air resistance created by the fans. (Not the rotating mass of the fans, but the resistance with the air created by the fan blades.) I estimate that it would take about 5w just to spin the fans, so perhaps only 20w, or a little over 1/40 hp of output power, is being used to create vibrations via an off-balance rotating mass. 20w to churn 15 pounds of rocks + media is about 1.3w per pound. (The newer Lot-O tumblers use ball bearings so there should be an insignificant friction loss, which we can assume to be 0 when punching rough numbers. The older ones use sleeve bearings which probably create a little more friction, depending on how often you oil them.) I don't know the efficiency of the mini-sonic at the component level. I do know that it doesn't create much heat. Nothing like the Lot-O motor, which gets HOT. And since there are no moving parts in the Mini-Sonic, there is no friction loss and no fan to spin. I suspect that the solenoid is quite efficient at turning the input power into vibrations. Ironically, the more efficient the solenoid is at turning power into vibrations, the less inherent efficiency in the Mini-Sonic design. I will punch the numbers assuming 50%, 80%, and 90% efficiency for the solenoid with a 4 pound load of rocks + media. At medium power, the Mini-Sonic uses 11w. 50% efficiency = 5.5w of output power churning 4 pounds of rocks at a moderately slow rate = 1.375w per pound 80% efficiency = 8.8w of output power churning 4 pounds of rocks at a moderately slow rate = 2.2w per pound 90% efficiency = 9.9w of output power churning 4 pounds of rocks at a moderately slow rate = 2.475w per pound At high power, it uses 27w. 50% efficiency = 13.5w of output power churning 4 pounds of rocks at a very fast rate = 3.375w per pound 80% efficiency = 21.6w of output power churning 4 pounds of rocks at a very fast rate = 5.4w per pound 90% efficiency = 24.3w of output power churning 4 pounds of rocks at a very fast rate = 6.075w per pound I would say that at medium (half) power the Mini-Sonic churns rocks at about the same speed at the double-barrel Lot-O. But the Lot-O barrel's cone shape creates a traffic jam at the bottom of the barrel, and churning power is used up unclogging the traffic jam. (That is the main reason why the Lot-O works so well in my opinion -- it's all about the barrel shape.) The Mini-Sonic, on the other hand, has a smooth, half rounded hopper which creates no such traffic jam and no additional grinding at the bottom of the barrel. Rocks can church freely without the additional friction created at the bottom of the Lot-O barrel. The barrel shape of the Lot-O would seem to require more power to spin a load than would be required with the barrel shape of the Mini-Sonic. So to conclude, the double barrel Lot-O uses around 20w of output power to create the vibration necessary to church around 15 pounds of rocks + media through two cone shaped barrels. The Mini-Sonic uses somewhere between 5.5w-24.3w of output power (if set between medium and full power, and depending on the efficiency of the solenoid) to church around 4 pounds through a trough shaped hopper. Here's the final thing to consider -- the Lot-O works faster than the Mini-Sonic. In my experience, it might work twice as fast. The Mini-Sonic is a fine polisher, but I find that it takes a very long time to break down 220 SiC (graded) and even takes 3-4 days to break down 500 SiC. 120/220 never seems to break down well in the Mini-Sonic. Whereas I can take rocks from SiC 220 to a high polish in 5-7 days in the Lot-O, I have never done so in less than 10-12 days in the Mini-Sonic. I have used the Lot-O for at least 100 loads, while I have probably only used the Mini-Sonic 10-15 times. I am very familiar with the Lot-O, but I claim no expertise with to the MIni-Sonic. Perhaps I am doing something wrong for it to take so long. Here's the bottom line: I believe that the fundamental design of the the Lot-O (unbalanced rotating mass + springs + barrel shape) is high-efficiency and high-effective design for a vibe tumbler. The Lot-O's only handicap is that it uses inefficient 100 year old motor technology. A highly efficient brushless DC motor should be able to run a double barrel Lot-O while using no more than 30-40w of input power. A smaller sized motor with a lighter rotating mass and less stiff springs (maybe?), should be able to run the single barrel Lot-O while using only 15-20w of input power. Not only are brushless DC motors high efficient (and speed controllable), but you wouldn't need cooling fans, which would eliminate another inefficiency in the Lot-O's factory design. I'm sure there are some small logical flaws and/or math mistakes in the above analysis, but I think my fundamental point is a valid one. Thoughts?
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