jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 17, 2022 7:49:07 GMT -5
More vibratory conveyor schematics
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 17, 2022 7:58:54 GMT -5
Note use of springs on base Note interesting/peculiar electromagnetic excitation waveforms for above design Wooferhound. They are using some kind of half-bridge rectifier to create the waveform. Yikes, looks like overkill for a rock vibe.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 17, 2022 8:35:28 GMT -5
Design #2 has similar linkage angle to a vibratory conveyor. Note shaker is between foundation and hopper as you mentioned quartz Larry. Perhaps two pivoting linkages would be more efficient. If made of long enough 2" x 1/8" strip steel they should be totally free vibrating left/right and right/left. Maybe mount the pivot linkages further apart and connect them to a bridge table and then mount the hopper on the table.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 17, 2022 8:38:26 GMT -5
Feed for thoughts...
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 18, 2022 12:44:45 GMT -5
Hooked up a $27 signal generator to a 190 watt stereo amp and a 6 inch Klipsch speaker turned horizontal to hold a few tumbles. Most of the noise is being generated from the speaker cone(which will be removed for a tumbler app).
Did the standard vibe speed of 60hz. Also did 130hz, 300hz, and 1000hz. 2000hz would not even move rocks with my amp. Volume was increased and then decreased each run.
The higher the speed the less the bouncing. The bouncing makes rock bruises, rubbing is the way. So basically more vibes per minute with less vibe intensity per impact as frequency increases.
60hz, same rate as our tumblers
130hz
300hz
1000hz
PS A BNC female connector to male phono/RCA cable is required(EBAY for $10) for the $27 signal generator(EBAY also). 2 to 3 feet long.
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Wooferhound
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Post by Wooferhound on Feb 18, 2022 13:34:11 GMT -5
I received my 2 Oscillators in the mail yesterday and decided to give the smaller Circuit Board a try. Got it all hooked up to the amplifier/speaker, I turned the Amplitude/volume on the Oscillator off, but the 500 watt amp was turned all the way up.
When I powered up the Oscillator, everything was going Full Blast, I was quite surprised and was reaching for a volume control to turn it down, the Overload light on the amp was lit up showing that it was producing Full Power. Before I could turn it off, everything stopped. On further inspection I discovered that the speaker was Blown up. So now I will need to get out my backup speaker and make another Woofer Tumbler.
The smaller oscillator has the Amplitude control wired backwards, turning it to the Left will increase the volume, turning to the Right decreases the volume. I thought I had the Volume Off but it was really at Full.
At least I can reuse all the plastic parts that I cut and drilled.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 18, 2022 13:45:52 GMT -5
Ouch. I thought I had seen a large mushroom cloud off to the northwest lol. Mad scientists paying the price of forward progress. sorry I did hook up a speaker to get the volume turned down to safe levels before tripping the big switch. I'm scared to death of electricity. The $27 function generator is a star and is easily powered by a $2 - 110VAC to USB cell phone charger adapter. The built-in alphanumeric LED let's you know all status issues. It is user friendly and has plenty of other options and functions.
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Post by oregon on Feb 19, 2022 0:09:49 GMT -5
I think with your wanting a higher frequency, lower amplitude of motion, you should easily get very long life out of some rubber vibration isolator mounts.
I also think of my popcorn bowl just like the rock barrel, after salt, holding it on one edge shaking it so the far edge travels further creates that rotating motion. Seems like that's what you're after, and with such small amplitudes, large arms shouldn't be needed? or using the popcorn and my arm analogy: flicking the bowl with my hands works well, the close edge travels near zero, and the outer edge of the bowl maybe a couple inches. If I hold the bowl with my arms outstretched, and my shoulder as the pivot, the outer edges and the closer edges travel near the same magnitude, things don't mix. The difference in travel between the two edges helps create the rotation in the bowl. ( after all this thread has a lot of popcorn emojis!)
worth noting that the dowel for the lotto - I think of that as the fulcrum point, is really pretty close to the edge of the hopper.
1.5cents...
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 19, 2022 8:16:05 GMT -5
I think with your wanting a higher frequency, lower amplitude of motion, you should easily get very long life out of some rubber vibration isolator mounts.
I also think of my popcorn bowl just like the rock barrel, after salt, holding it on one edge shaking it so the far edge travels further creates that rotating motion. Seems like that's what you're after, and with such small amplitudes, large arms shouldn't be needed? or using the popcorn and my arm analogy: flicking the bowl with my hands works well, the close edge travels near zero, and the outer edge of the bowl maybe a couple inches. If I hold the bowl with my arms outstretched, and my shoulder as the pivot, the outer edges and the closer edges travel near the same magnitude, things don't mix. The difference in travel between the two edges helps create the rotation in the bowl. ( after all this thread has a lot of popcorn emojis!)
worth noting that the dowel for the lotto - I think of that as the fulcrum point, is really pretty close to the edge of the hopper.
1.5cents...
The distance from the shaking source plays a big role in vibration amplitude and likely the rock movement oregon. To find out the shaking amount from the shaker a wood yardstick can be clamped to the hopper of a vibe.(if able) Then turned on and motion of stick observed. More so when the vibe is turned off and is coasting to a stop to reduce the 'whip'. In this case the yardstick was clamped the the vertical lip of the tall and short Vibrasonic hoppers: In addition to the increased rocking as the distance increases there is also an increase in the size of the oval motion. It is difficult to say if the oval motion or the rocking motion component or both is making the rocks roll. If I ran glass in the taller factory hopper it got bruised regardless of slurry thickness. It had about twice the amplitude. If I ran glass in the shorter heavier homemade hopper it did not get bruised even when running straight water without slurry thickener. Much more user friendly. Note that the added weight with the shorter hopper reduced the swing amplitude. If you added enough weight the vibration came to a stop ala zero amplitude. Rocking component described by sine waves. The frequency stays the same but the amplitude varies.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 19, 2022 9:10:19 GMT -5
The vibration isolators make good sense oregon. The link should come in handy. Some vibes can be free standing, some grounded to a heavy base. Guessing it takes some fancier engineering to design a vibe that contains it's own vibrations without walking. The Lot-O sure makes good use of being anchored to a heavy counterweighted footing.
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Post by oregon on Feb 19, 2022 13:53:05 GMT -5
The vibration isolators make good sense oregon . The link should come in handy. Some vibes can be free standing, some grounded to a heavy base. Guessing it takes some fancier engineering to design a vibe that contains it's own vibrations without walking. The Lot-O sure makes good use of being anchored to a heavy counterweighted footing. yeah, interesting that the minisonics are comparable, but needs no counterweight, or maybe they'd work better if they were anchored down?...
I think the pivot arrangement of the two is pretty similar though; point "3b" on the minisonic seems like the pivot point for the minisonic, very similar to the dowel position of the Lot-O. I haven't used my vibrasonic too much. To be honest, unbolting the hoppers for every cleanout is a pia, and I worry about not tightening a bolt, or it working loose and destroying the mount tab. None the less, I feel like it's construction is bit different. That table simply rests on four springs (I don't regard the O-ring holding it down as doing much) so I think instead of a fulcrum point, that hopper is allowed to precess in a circular motion as the counter weights aren't really constrained like the Lot-O. Maybe that's what you're also referring to as the "oval"? Guess I should put my phone on the two and compare the amplitudes of the x-y motions, I'm guessing they'd be a bit different for the Lot-O vs the Vibrasonic.. Your dampening the motion arguments still are valid for lowering, adding more weight. Always wondered if a circular/oval grinding motion was one of the advantages that tumbler has. Have to start thinking about impact forces and the grinding/fracturing event I suppose, I can imagine one has more of a 'rubbing' effect while the 'shaking' of the other provides more of direct impact force. Could be that's also why the UV & gyroc vibes work well, they're allowed more of a rotary motion (horizontal)? If that's the case you'll just need two base kickers mounted at 90 deg with a phase shift between them to get that going All of that thinking out loud simply say, Seems like your 'non shaker' arm or mounting point could be very short or close to the edge? or more of a 90 than a 45? Go kick some butt
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Post by rockpickerforever on Feb 19, 2022 19:51:25 GMT -5
I had to "unquote this" so the pics of the engineering done on the orange paper James drew would show up in the repost (scroll to end to see why I did that). Don't know where he got that orange paper from, I'm seen many such drawings scrawled on bar napkins, also drawn with a stick in the sand in the desert. Yeah, I know you already saw these once, bear with me please. jamesp said: The distance from the shaking source plays a big role in vibration amplitude and likely the rock movement oregon . To find out the shaking amount from the shaker a wood yardstick can be clamped to the hopper of a vibe.(if able) Then turned on and motion of stick observed. More so when the vibe is turned off and is coasting to a stop to reduce the 'whip'. In this case the yardstick was clamped the the vertical lip of the tall and short Vibrasonic hoppers: In addition to the increased rocking as the distance increases there is also an increase in the size of the oval motion. It is difficult to say if the oval motion or the rocking motion component or both is making the rocks roll. If I ran glass in the taller factory hopper it got bruised regardless of slurry thickness. It had about twice the amplitude. If I ran glass in the shorter heavier homemade hopper it did not get bruised even when running straight water without slurry thickener. Much more user friendly. Note that the added weight with the shorter hopper reduced the swing amplitude. If you added enough weight the vibration came to a stop ala zero amplitude. Rocking component described by sine waves. The frequency stays the same but the amplitude varies. Whenever the mad scientist/engineer comes out, I think of things like this:
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 20, 2022 5:42:21 GMT -5
This instantly causes damage to autistic brains rockpickerforever. Cheapo stationery ? Bar room napkins have been responsible for communicating multi-million dollar designs and phone numbers to some of the hottest rendezvous ever experienced !
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 20, 2022 6:43:36 GMT -5
The vibration isolators make good sense oregon . The link should come in handy. Some vibes can be free standing, some grounded to a heavy base. Guessing it takes some fancier engineering to design a vibe that contains it's own vibrations without walking. The Lot-O sure makes good use of being anchored to a heavy counterweighted footing. yeah, interesting that the minisonics are comparable, but needs no counterweight, or maybe they'd work better if they were anchored down?...
I think the pivot arrangement of the two is pretty similar though; point "3b" on the minisonic seems like the pivot point for the minisonic, very similar to the dowel position of the Lot-O. I haven't used my vibrasonic too much. To be honest, unbolting the hoppers for every cleanout is a pia, and I worry about not tightening a bolt, or it working loose and destroying the mount tab. None the less, I feel like it's construction is bit different. That table simply rests on four springs (I don't regard the O-ring holding it down as doing much) so I think instead of a fulcrum point, that hopper is allowed to precess in a circular motion as the counter weights aren't really constrained like the Lot-O. Maybe that's what you're also referring to as the "oval"? Guess I should put my phone on the two and compare the amplitudes of the x-y motions, I'm guessing they'd be a bit different for the Lot-O vs the Vibrasonic.. Your dampening the motion arguments still are valid for lowering, adding more weight. Always wondered if a circular/oval grinding motion was one of the advantages that tumbler has. Have to start thinking about impact forces and the grinding/fracturing event I suppose, I can imagine one has more of a 'rubbing' effect while the 'shaking' of the other provides more of direct impact force. Could be that's also why the UV & gyroc vibes work well, they're allowed more of a rotary motion (horizontal)? If that's the case you'll just need two base kickers mounted at 90 deg with a phase shift between them to get that going All of that thinking out loud simply say, Seems like your 'non shaker' arm or mounting point could be very short or close to the edge? or more of a 90 than a 45? Go kick some butt Yes - what you are saying about the popcorn out on long arms, the Mini-Sonic and the Vibrasonic do have something similar in common. Both hoppers sit on 4 springs. Note in both cases the hopper is not centered on the 4 springs but is shifted to sit more so on the 'back' 2 springs. When fabricating the hoppers for the Vibrasonic I had various mounting holes(photo below) drilled to shift the hopper from center of the 4 springs to an offset over the rear 2 springs. As the hopper was moved equally between the 4 springs the rolling action came to a stop. Both machines have a somewhat independent hopper shaking system that is shaking the hopper sitting offset on 4 springs. This offset must be where the 'kicking' action comes from. For kicks I ran a load with the hopper sitting center of the 4 springs. There was no 'rolling' action at all, the batch looked like a bunch of maggots squirming around in the hopper lol. Plenty of mixing. 500-220-polish came out just as quickly and successfully as when the rolling action was used. Go figure. The maggot tumble was a success. One thing for sure, the downward force of gravity is consistent and plays a big role in the rock motion and that the vibration forces are created by outside sources plus the gravity force. The vibrating conveyor tosses the batch forward and in the air(against the force of gravity) and makes a reverse movement by the time gravity deposits the batch back onto the table. This motion is repeated over and over with each vibration and creates a 'flow'. To assist this process it appears 70 to 75 degrees off of horizontal is an optimum reciprocating angle. Begin to curve the flat vibratory table into say a half cylinder. The rocks(batch) should climb the curve of the cylinder in the direction conveyed and pile back on themselves as they do in a rotating rotary barrel or a dialed in cylindrical vibe hopper. The maggot tumble, dinner is served.
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Wooferhound
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Post by Wooferhound on Feb 21, 2022 9:39:14 GMT -5
Been very busy since I Blew up my Woofer Tumbler, but I have new plans.
Will make the next prototype tumbler using the Bass Shaker that Jamesp sent me last month. This time all the Flex-Points will be metal hinges instead of the thin plastic that I used on the last experiment. Also planning to reduce the parts-count intending to reduce the overall weight of the Assembly that will be vibrating.
Am working all week but have plenty of time in the evenings to put it together.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 23, 2022 11:59:43 GMT -5
Been very busy since I Blew up my Woofer Tumbler, but I have new plans. Will make the next prototype tumbler using the Bass Shaker that Jamesp sent me last month. This time all the Flex-Points will be metal hinges instead of the thin plastic that I used on the last experiment. Also planning to reduce the parts-count intending to reduce the overall weight of the Assembly that will be vibrating. Am working all week but have plenty of time in the evenings to put it together. I bought a 3 foot long $10 BNC connector to phono/RCA cable Tim. I settled on the $27 FG-100 DDS Function Generator off of EBAY. It comes with a jack type power cord that plugs straight into a common 5VDC USB phone charger adapter which in turn plugged straight into the auxiliary 110VAC plug in the back of the stereo amplifier. Connections and cabling is neat and clean. This test was at 7 hertz, slow like an old steam powered train engine. Did darn well for such a low frequency. Choo-choo This explosive test done at double the speed of a rock vibe at 120 hertz. Note what happens as volume is increased. Photo of interconnections to the FG-100. Use the cursor button to change frequency. Run/Stop button to turn on selected frequency. The black knob on right adjusts the amplitude/volume. The mode button picks the waveform. It has a filter and other adjustments.:
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Wooferhound
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Post by Wooferhound on Feb 24, 2022 8:20:33 GMT -5
Been very busy since I Blew up my Woofer Tumbler, but I have new plans. Will make the next prototype tumbler using the Bass Shaker that Jamesp sent me last month. This time all the Flex-Points will be metal hinges instead of the thin plastic that I used on the last experiment. Also planning to reduce the parts-count intending to reduce the overall weight of the Assembly that will be vibrating. Am working all week but have plenty of time in the evenings to put it together. I bought a 3 foot long $10 BNC connector to phono/RCA cable Tim.
I sent you that adapter it is the Green side on the little box, then the RCA wires to the your Home Stereo the Red side is for your little red Functiion Generator, just tighten up the wire into the terminal strip on it. Then the Power supply was for the little one. giving you the ability to run Both of them at the same time. I gues the wiring would have been more messy, but it gives lots of options.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 24, 2022 9:20:06 GMT -5
I bought a 3 foot long $10 BNC connector to phono/RCA cable Tim. I sent you that adapter it is the Green side on the little box, then the RCA wires to the your Home Stereo the Red side is for your little red Functiion Generator, just tighten up the wire into the terminal strip on it. Then the Power supply was for the little one. giving you the ability to run Both of them at the same time. I gues the wiring would have been more messy, but it gives lots of options.
It was a dedicated cable Tim. Just to simplify the connection for that particular FG-100 function generator. Making it easy to move the amp and generator set-up out to the weld shop to test mechanical prototypes. The multi-adaptor you sent is great for connecting the other devices.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 25, 2022 12:15:28 GMT -5
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