zapins
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2016
Posts: 116
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Post by zapins on Jun 28, 2017 0:21:38 GMT -5
Got the rails, will be putting them all together soon.
I am a little worried about the lid weight. It is frighteningly heavy. I might have to reorient the lid so the hinges are along the edge rather than the back. That might help reduce the weight needed to open the lid? Or at least make it a little less terrifying to do that.
Not sure.
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zapins
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2016
Posts: 116
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Post by zapins on Jun 26, 2017 13:13:20 GMT -5
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zapins
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2016
Posts: 116
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Post by zapins on Jun 21, 2017 6:10:11 GMT -5
Thanks for the reassurance. I did use the formula for 2 ends with support, the link above has the equations and work in it. I used a point load of 400 lbs. It would have been better to use a spread out load for better accuracy.
I don't have too many 200 lb rocks to slab but I'm just thinking max weight possible under the most intense circumstances possible.
I was surprised at the weight of the vice as well but it is accurate, it was modeled on CAD. I picked the parts up and they are very heavy, I believe 200 lbs for sure.
I did the feed rate calculation a while back but I think I set it at 11.75 inches per hour if I remember correctly. I'm using a gear motor with 125 lbs of torque if I remember right. I hope this will be enough force to move the vice.
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zapins
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2016
Posts: 116
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Post by zapins on Jun 19, 2017 23:11:27 GMT -5
I think you are correct. I should rerun it with a spread out load to get the exact numbers, but what do you think if it did deflect that much?
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zapins
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2016
Posts: 116
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Post by zapins on Jun 19, 2017 19:18:57 GMT -5
Figured you all might be interested in seeing, but here are the parts of the vice. I just picked them up today, freshly plasma CNCed. Still interested to find out what you think about a maximum deflection of 0.0945" (2.4 mm). If it will bind the blade or be ok.
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zapins
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2016
Posts: 116
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Post by zapins on Jun 19, 2017 2:01:03 GMT -5
I was interested in seeing the amount of deflection in the O1 tool steel rails at various sizes (since larger diameter rods are more expensive I wanted to see if it was necessary to get 1.5" dia rails). My vice weighs 200 lbs, and I figured the largest possible rock I could ever pick up and put into the vice would be about 200 lbs, so I calculated my max load as 400 lbs. I believe that a 400 lb load on two 1.5" diameter rods will deflect the rails by 0.0945 " or 2.4 mm when the load crosses the middle of the rods. This assumes the 400 lbs is evenly distributed over both rails and they both take an equal amount of the weight. Will this amount of deflection in the vertical direction cause binding of the blade with the rock or should it be ok? Here is a summary of the deflection of 1.25", 1.5", and 2" diameter rails and the cost per rail from mcmaster: Rail Diameter | Max Deflection of 1 rail w/ 400 lb load in center of rail | Max Deflection w/ 2 rails | Price/rod 1.25" 0.391" or 9.9314 mm 0.1955" or 4.9657 mm $93.61 1.5" 0.189" or 4.8006 mm 0.0945 " or 2.4 mm $128.79 2" 0.06" or 1.524 mm 0.03" or 0.762mm $203.37
PDF of my work for reference: drive.google.com/open?id=0B9nQUARu47-OdWJNdHk0UFNMMTg
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zapins
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2016
Posts: 116
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Post by zapins on Jun 11, 2017 22:39:37 GMT -5
Been a while since you posted this thread but I am interested in hearing how the machine worked out? Did you ever get it to work? Did it work well? Any issues?
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zapins
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2016
Posts: 116
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Post by zapins on Jun 9, 2017 23:30:02 GMT -5
Yes the inner frame and arbor support and vice plate etc all of it is 215. Everything in the plans. Oh actually I had three 30x1.5" strips cut for hinges, they probably add a couple pounds and won't be sitting on the rails so the entire vice and carriage assembly is less than 200. I can add it up tomorrow and put an accurate weight.
Ok good to know. 0.25 inches of sag on 10 feet is acceptable. On a 4 foot something span that will be under 1/16th.
I just don't want the blade binding up if there is too much sag. Trying to overbuild this thing so it lasts me another 50 years.
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zapins
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2016
Posts: 116
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Post by zapins on Jun 9, 2017 18:37:47 GMT -5
What do you mean the deflection should be known?
My father said he'd run a calculation for me on the deflection so I suppose I'll wait for him to get back to me.
I wonder if my worm gear motor can drive the vice with so much weight on it. Hmmm.
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zapins
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2016
Posts: 116
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Post by zapins on Jun 9, 2017 14:24:32 GMT -5
Went to the fabrication shop today to submit the vice plans. They parted the thing out and figured out that the vice and carriage are going to weigh 215 pounds since it is made of 1/2" thick plate. This seems heavy to me, but I figured that is probably similar to highland park's and convington's vice weights? Their carriages look like they are about 1/2" cast iron? I am a little concerned that the rails will bow slightly if I have that kind of weight on them plus the weight of the rock. That's anything up to 400 pounds of weight on the rails. Granted the rails are going to be 1.5" thick and made of drill rod but still... Oh well, I'll figure it out somehow. I picked up the shaft the shop machined for me. It really came out well, exactly like my diagram, can't wait to fit it in place. I had them make 2 of the same shaft for me in case it ever breaks I'm not left trying to find a place to make a replacement.
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zapins
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2016
Posts: 116
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Post by zapins on Jun 8, 2017 22:54:15 GMT -5
Great. Thanks guys. Yeah I figured why not just have the vice go to the full blade height? Might as well it won't harm anything and as Rockoonz said - I'll use it as a guide to know when the rock is too big.
The only thing I'm really concerned about is that the space between the 2 bearings that hold the 9" wide drilled vice base are going to be about 4" apart. This seems like a small distance to me. Possible causing the vice to tilt with a heavy rock, or wear more on one set of bearings?
I'll be placing an order for the drill rods and many flanged linear bearings soon.
I'll probably end up casting the split nut inserts for the carriage out of Everdure silicon bronze in a couple of weeks. I can post photos of that if people are interested. I might even make a few of them so I don't have to bother making more of them when they wear out in the future.
At some point I'll assemble a new thread with many photos at every stage of the process, the plans (with any updates), and probably a few videos so other people can use my plans to make their own saws. I saw some guy on ebay selling plans for $60 a pop (sold ~230 of them), so who knows maybe someone will save some bucks with my plans? I certainly wish I had found free wet saw plans like mine 8+ months back...
I also plan to make a centrifugal oil cleaner for the mineral oil. Might get to that this summer, otherwise I'll update the forum with a new thread later on when its done. I have a pretty good idea how to do it using a torque converter from a car, a bit of welding, and a quick turn on my lathe. Shouldn't be too difficult. Lucky for me there is a local business that sells a wide variety of AC & DC motors in all kinds of HP ratings for cheap ($50-80 range) so it shouldn't cost me more than $200 total in materials.
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zapins
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2016
Posts: 116
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Post by zapins on Jun 8, 2017 16:33:10 GMT -5
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zapins
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2016
Posts: 116
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Post by zapins on May 29, 2017 17:55:31 GMT -5
How tall should the jaws of the vice be? is 8" enough or should I make them taller to hold larger rocks?
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zapins
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2016
Posts: 116
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Post by zapins on May 20, 2017 2:28:27 GMT -5
Quick question. How wide should the vice be? How wide should I space the rails? Does this matter or will roughly 12-14" wide work ok?
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zapins
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2016
Posts: 116
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Post by zapins on May 19, 2017 0:02:50 GMT -5
No problem, thanks for the replies you, quartz and the others have been really helpful. I'll look into buying 1.5" dia O1 drill rod then for the rail that is closest to the blade, and probably 1" for the farther away rail since it won't carry as much weight. Will be cheaper that way too.
I'm figuring out the lid opening mechanism and then I'll go through and design the vice and carriage.
I'll definitely use the rails through the plate steel, and use bronze bearings to keep it centered, but I might use a plate with holes drilled to attach the vice jaw instead of the threaded rod like in the Royal saw. Still haven't decided yet. Anyone who has seen/used both kinds have a preference?
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zapins
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2016
Posts: 116
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Post by zapins on May 18, 2017 15:40:21 GMT -5
Rockoonz - I'm going to put the order in for materials soon, but before I do, did you use the O1 drill rod as it came or did you harden it?
Do you think I need to use larger than 1" drill rod just to be sure it won't bow the rail in the worst case scenario with a 100-200 lb vice and 1-200 lb rock? Or is the 1" stuff stiff enough not to bend?
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zapins
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2016
Posts: 116
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Post by zapins on May 17, 2017 1:22:08 GMT -5
Hmm ok. Great. Did you use the O1 drill rod as it came or did you harden it?
Do you think I need to use larger than 1" drill rod just to be sure it won't bow the rail in the worst case scenario with a 100-200 lb vice and 1-200 lb rock?
quartz - ok I see. That makes sense. Couldn't see the quick release on the vice thread because it wasn't there! Haha.
Last part of what I still need to figure out is how to fix the threaded rod into the vice (the locking part to secure it in place). Then I'll go ahead and put an order in for all the metal plates and see about welding it up.
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zapins
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2016
Posts: 116
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Post by zapins on May 16, 2017 18:06:20 GMT -5
I think bushings are going to be a must. I read on this forum (http://gemstone.smfforfree4.com/index.php?topic=17988.0) that their old Royal rock saw developed a lot of wear on the carriage and has 1/4" of slop on the ways. Is this the kind of drill rod that will work? It is O1 multipurpose tool steel (drill rod) with a current hardness of "Hardness: Medium (Rockwell B89)" and ground to a tolerance of 0.0005" www.mcmaster.com/#drill-rods/=17nor29Will these bronze bushings work? They are oil permeated to help lubricate them. www.mcmaster.com/#bronze-sleeve-bearings/=17nosh7I can also pour and lathe some silicon bronze bushings or alloy my own tin bronze if that is necessary and would work better. Shouldn't be a problem, I can't see the bushings in the upper photo from the angle it is taken at but I'm sure they would be a good idea long term. I will PM es355lucille and see if he has any more photos of his saw & vice. quartz - I see the release handle for the entire carriage from the feed screw, but don't see the release for the vice jaw leading to the hand crank. Something that I've noticed is there are very few photos on the internet of saws from all the critical angles that you need to see in order to figure out how it was made. I've pieced together a decent little collection but it is still surprising how few photos there are. Especially of vices. I'll see if I can PM
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zapins
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2016
Posts: 116
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Post by zapins on May 15, 2017 23:18:53 GMT -5
Rockoonz - I have seen a few saws with that kind of design where the rails come through a lower section and are kept on track simply by metal on metal as the rail goes through the hole. I was worried that over time the frame would wear down because of all the rock grit and constant metal on metal rubbing. Do they hold up well over time? If so I might just go with that design instead of a wheel or V groove wheel design. Originally I actually bought some nylon that I was going to cut holes through and slot into the rails to act as a bearing material. That way when the nylon ring around the rail wore out I could just replace it and keep cutting without damage to the alignment or the rails. Should I go with this idea? Rockoonz & Rockoonz - Sounds like square rails are out. So for the rails, should I go with stainless steel 1" thick rods, or cold rolled 1" thick rods? I can potentially buy larger diameter rods as well if necessary to prevent bowing of the rails and misalignment issues? Do the rails need to be lathed so they are perfectly straight, or will they work if they are simply bought straight as 1" diameter rods? Should I just use 1/2" thick plate for the entire vice body then? That should make it pretty tank like and unlikely to break? There doesn't appear to be a quick release and reset (in the above picture). I was thinking of using holes in the top plate to socket a piece of metal that holds the jaws shut and put a screw adjuster on the top of it just like this vice (below). Is this a good idea?
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zapins
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2016
Posts: 116
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Post by zapins on May 13, 2017 21:02:24 GMT -5
When I'm done I plan on building a centrifugal oil cleaner so that I can run it at the same time as the saw and constantly have clean oil in the saw box.
Rockoonz - what about the vice design do you like? I think I might simplify it a bit more and have less welding to do. Maybe also make it have a detachable top plate where the holes go. What do you think about 1/2" thick plate for the long part of the vice with the holes drilled in it? I think it should work out nicely.
I need to figure out the wheels. I think I'm going to go with 1.5"x1.5"x0.25" square rods for the rails and then use V groove iron/steel wheels to sit on the rail. Probably with some kind of guide to keep the wheel pulling off the top. Possibly add a second V groove under the rail instead. Not sure.
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