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Post by rmf on Feb 7, 2024 14:16:17 GMT -5
I hope to have some new info to contribute on this thread in about 6 months but it is too cool in my basement to time my cabbing. It will have to wait for warmer weather. It should be noted in the above that @hefty 's contribution is true on cabs as well as facet stones however it is more obvious on faceted stones than on cabs. I also grind with a heavy hand and for hogging material I like a 30 grit sintered Baltic Abrasive(BA) wheel. This leaves scratches about equal to a Diamond Pacific(DP) 60 grit plated hex wheel. The BA 30 Grit cuts about 11% faster than the DP 60 grit hex wheel. (from my testing the DP wheel was broken in, not new. In my experience the breaking process for the DP 60 grit and 80 grit plated wheels is about 100 - 150, 40x30 size agate cabochons. The 30 Grit sintered wheel from BA I ran about 250 cabs through the wheel to "break it in" before I started timing my grinding. I have now roughed out over 500 stones on the wheel and have found the break in time to be zero. One oddity the right half of the wheel has less chipping that the Left half. Chipping on the 30 grit is about equal to chipping from a new plated 60 grit wheel. I hog material from the top and grind only material where chipping wont matter. I then finish the rough out on a worn 80 grit hex plated wheel from DP. I purchased a 60 grit sintered wheel from BA as well and though it works well it is too slow for roughout work. I have used it with great success to take the dopped rough ground cabs and remove scratches from the 80 grit. the 60 Grit gets only a light touch unless i need to reduce the height of the cab more. I have had no chipping problems from the 60 grit sintered wheel. Yeah I though about a 30 grit but I think I'd need a different bench setup for that reason as I'll work agate and soft stuff (I like soft stuff lol) How does the 60 grit compare to the 80 grit in terms of scratch depth and time differences? It might still be ok to go from 60 to 1000 since the 1000 can take away a surprising amount of material. OK to answer your question: There were 10 different cabs sizes and shapes in my test. The total weight of preforms in group 80PL is 210.39g (grams) the total weight in group 60PL is 212.79g. It took 168.02' to grind cutout preform to roughed out ready to dop cabs (group 80PL) on the DP 80grit Hex wheel (Used wheel probably 750 stones done on it). For group 60PL the process was a little different since my goal is to have preformed cabs ready to dop of the same size, weight and quality. that means I start grinding on the 60 grit wheel then finish on the 80 grit wheel. Make the preforms as close to exactly the same as possible. So Group 60PL took a combined time of 111.30'. So grinding on the 60 grit wheel saved me 56.72' of grinding time for the same shape, close to the same weight of rocks and using both the 60 grit and the 80 grit wheels. This made the combo of the two wheels about 33% faster than grinding on the 80 grit alone. Also note the rocks for the test are all Brazilian Agate and within the groups I tried to balance the weight as much as possible. And a an additional point of info the average material recovered was 63.2% for the 60PL group and 65.5% for the 80PL group. The 60PL group was faster grinding and the cabs lost more weight by about 4 grams than the 80PL group. |
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Post by glennz01 on Feb 7, 2024 17:37:54 GMT -5
Experimenting myself. One thing I’ve noticed is that going from a low grit to a high grit, then back through. The high grit masks the deeper scratches. Essentially smooths or buffs them out, but never really gets rid of them. Then as you go back through the stages, to the untrained eye, they aren’t noticeable. If you throw the cab under a loop, you can still see the scratches, they are just smoothed out. That's why I let them dry fully between stages, and I spect under a bright light and sharpie imperfections on each stage starting wheel 2, under water it's hard to know if you get all the scratches out even 80 to 1000 grit, you know you get most out though. I know my 1000 grit wheel I noticed I bought in 2022 and ran at least 400-500 cabs through it by now, it's not as sharp as new but still has life left though takes slightly longer than new but not by much. |
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Post by glennz01 on Feb 7, 2024 17:44:05 GMT -5
gemfeller thanks for the report on THK, I have purchased other things from them on ebay but not their wheels. I think that there are probably lots of combinations of wheels that are ideal for specific hardness ranges and material types, alas my bench space and wallet cannot support them all. Well this thread should help with bench spake and efficiency lol. I'm currently operating in my house mostly with my cab King, 14 inch lortone drop saw using water only (can't cut agates on it effectivily) In my bathroom ive got 40 lb tumbler, angle grinder which I dry grind masked up with vent fan on, and vibe lap for final polishes. Outside I've got 3 oil saws usable based on space, 2 24 inch and a 16 inch. In total I've got like 15 saws between big and small saws, 2 more grinders of sorts, a 200-300 lb capacity vibratory tumbler I've yet to use and a core saw I've yet to use. Slowly getting one shed to be a Lapidary shop after I insulate. I low budget things but I learned long ago the time you make money is when you buy, not sell lol. |
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Post by glennz01 on Feb 7, 2024 17:47:52 GMT -5
gemfeller thanks for the report on THK, I have purchased other things from them on ebay but not their wheels. I think that there are probably lots of combinations of wheels that are ideal for specific hardness ranges and material types, alas my bench space and wallet cannot support them all. Well this thread should help with bench spake and efficiency lol. I'm currently operating in my house mostly with my cab King, 14 inch lortone drop saw using water only (can't cut agates on it effectivily) In my bathroom ive got 40 lb tumbler, angle grinder which I dry grind masked up with vent fan on, and vibe lap for final polishes. Outside I've got 3 oil saws usable based on space, 2 24 inch and a 16 inch. In total I've got like 15 saws between big and small saws, 2 more grinders of sorts, a 200-300 lb capacity vibratory tumbler I've yet to use and a core saw I've yet to use. Slowly getting one shed to be a Lapidary shop after I insulate. I low budget things but I learned long ago the time you make money is when you buy, not sell lol. Granted i dont typically buy slabs individually, id buy by the pound wholesale, but a slab i buy would need at least 2 cabs for $30 ea cabs like old stock colored crazy lace, but i got 5000 lbs of rocks in my soare room ive still got to slab that ive found since 2013, though i do buy some if the price is right, reallt tempting to buy a few on here st times lol. If i get slabs i dont need from collections i usually resell for between $5-10/ lb |
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Post by glennz01 on Feb 7, 2024 17:48:21 GMT -5
Well this thread should help with bench spake and efficiency lol. I'm currently operating in my house mostly with my cab King, 14 inch lortone drop saw using water only (can't cut agates on it effectivily) In my bathroom ive got 40 lb tumbler, angle grinder which I dry grind masked up with vent fan on, and vibe lap for final polishes. Outside I've got 3 oil saws usable based on space, 2 24 inch and a 16 inch. In total I've got like 15 saws between big and small saws, 2 more grinders of sorts, a 200-300 lb capacity vibratory tumbler I've yet to use and a core saw I've yet to use. Slowly getting one shed to be a Lapidary shop after I insulate. I low budget things but I learned long ago the time you make money is when you buy, not sell lol. Granted i dont typically buy slabs individually, id buy by the pound wholesale, but a slab i buy would need at least 2 cabs for $30 ea cabs like old stock colored crazy lace, but i got 5000 lbs of rocks in my soare room ive still got to slab that ive found since 2013, though i do buy some if the price is right, reallt tempting to buy a few on here st times lol. If i get slabs i dont need from collections or cutting myself i usually resell for between $5-10/ lb |
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Post by Rockoonz on Feb 8, 2024 2:21:56 GMT -5
Experimenting myself. One thing I’ve noticed is that going from a low grit to a high grit, then back through. The high grit masks the deeper scratches. Essentially smooths or buffs them out, but never really gets rid of them. Then as you go back through the stages, to the untrained eye, they aren’t noticeable. If you throw the cab under a loop, you can still see the scratches, they are just smoothed out. One thing I was taught about finding scratches, especially on dark colored material, is a quick buff on the cerium polisher, the polish gets in the scratches and becomes pretty obvious. |
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RockDog
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Post by RockDog on Feb 8, 2024 13:16:06 GMT -5
Nice tip on the polisher. I'm going to try that.
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NDK
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Post by NDK on Feb 9, 2024 19:40:30 GMT -5
Once I post videos of going 80 to 1,000 grit hard to hard. I suspect many people that care about time (or at least that see $70 for the wheel as cheap) will be ordering 1000 grit. I'm I'm hoping BA will make a 1000 grit, maybe if there's enough demand they will since I like their quality as I've only ever found 1k grit on Amazon usually 1 inch width instead of 1.5 inch I tried your 1000 grit method long ago. It worked well but diamond wheels were very expensive then and demand for my cabs was low so I developed other more economical techniques. I may try it again when the need arises. You can find 800 and 1200 x 1.5 inch plated wheels at Treasure Hong Kong <https://www.thk.hk> for $49 plus shipping. I think the total is around $65. I've used their wheels for years and like them a lot. Maybe those gits will work for you. Thank you for posting this info gemfeller! Ali and I have been talking about ordering a new 80 grit hard wheel and $65 shipped is an amazing price. I did look at their eBay store as Rockoonz mentioned and they have them for $79 with free shipping. Worthwhile to order off their website 👍 |
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gemfeller
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Post by gemfeller on Feb 9, 2024 23:57:58 GMT -5
NDK That was just an estimate from memory. I just checked the site and it looks like a 6-inch diameter 1.5 inch width 80 grit will cost $73 shipped: $59 for the wheel and $14 shipping. I've found their plated wheels to be longer-lasting than any domestically manufactured wheels I've used, but wear depends so much on user techniques and the material being cut. Hope it works for you.
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NDK
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Post by NDK on Feb 10, 2024 8:03:05 GMT -5
gemfeller that's interesting because I had just purchased the wheel before posting last night. I just checked my statement and it was in fact $65 that I paid. $49 for the wheel and $16 shipping. I just signed into their website again and even the 2" wide wheels are only $55. I wonder why you're getting different prices than I am 🧐
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gemfeller
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Post by gemfeller on Feb 10, 2024 11:18:57 GMT -5
gemfeller that's interesting because I had just purchased the wheel before posting last night. I just checked my statement and it was in fact $65 that I paid. $49 for the wheel and $16 shipping. I just signed into their website again and even the 2" wide wheels are only $55. I wonder why you're getting different prices than I am 🧐 No idea. Maybe because I checked a different version of their site or maybe I just messed up. That happens more often than I'd like these days! Glad you got the good price. |
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Post by glennz01 on Feb 13, 2024 2:52:49 GMT -5
Well I'm just starting to rough out a new batch of cabs so in a few days I'll post a video or pic if I don't have any other jobs come up
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orneryboi
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Member since November 2022
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Post by orneryboi on Feb 14, 2024 20:22:18 GMT -5
AYY! The fine-grit-hardwheel movement catching on!
I love my 600 grit hard wheel! (Extra points when my roommate proclaimed her affinity for it, too:) One day I may have to try the 1000 hard out, too.. learning every day.
My big issue is that sometimes my 80 will chip the rocks out of shape so I'm still teetering between 80 VS 220/600 hard but overall I prefer this method hands-down. Can't wait for Cabking sell a 7th wheel add-on one day;)
Cheers,
Patrick
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Post by glennz01 on Feb 15, 2024 23:46:51 GMT -5
AYY! The fine-grit-hardwheel movement catching on! I love my 600 grit hard wheel! (Extra points when my roommate proclaimed her affinity for it, too:) One day I may have to try the 1000 hard out, too.. learning every day. My big issue is that sometimes my 80 will chip the rocks out of shape so I'm still teetering between 80 VS 220/600 hard but overall I prefer this method hands-down. Can't wait for Cabking sell a 7th wheel add-on one day;) Cheers, Patrick I find 80 can chip rocks out but knowing to stop slightly before the chip out is key |
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Post by Rockoonz on Feb 16, 2024 0:38:24 GMT -5
The lapidary classes at the NW Rockhound Retreat use 180 hard wheels to start with, followed by 220. I assume this is because some students want to cab softer materials.
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Post by glennz01 on Mar 1, 2024 22:25:47 GMT -5
The lapidary classes at the NW Rockhound Retreat use 180 hard wheels to start with, followed by 220. I assume this is because some students want to cab softer materials. Probably so they don't grind too quickley on stage 1, but ud still use 1k grit as 2nd wheel. After this weekend (local rock show) I've got a new batch of cabs roughed out, so I can show a pic / video going from 80 to 1k. Both soft and hard things in my little batch I started |
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Post by glennz01 on Apr 8, 2024 23:42:51 GMT -5
Sorry for long wait, was busy and heading to NV tonight for a while. Left side to center has 80 grit scratches, right side to center (possibly some on left is all 1k grit finished. The time it took to do this was 25 seconds or less based in my counting. Also flat spots on right are removed mostly unlike the left side. 280 grit does the final dome touches and takes as much time to go over it, or less possibly. This agate was the hardest material of one I started. 1k grit followed along the edge down so everywhere that's turned the agate to looking blue ish seen the 1k grit I know it's kinda hard to see the deep scratches on this photo but I'd have to find a darker agate to have contrast  |
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Post by glennz01 on Apr 9, 2024 18:29:55 GMT -5
If anyone needs a better example, come May 7th I can try to get something more visible
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Post by glennz01 on Jun 4, 2024 11:37:40 GMT -5
Yeah I though about a 30 grit but I think I'd need a different bench setup for that reason as I'll work agate and soft stuff (I like soft stuff lol) How does the 60 grit compare to the 80 grit in terms of scratch depth and time differences? It might still be ok to go from 60 to 1000 since the 1000 can take away a surprising amount of material. OK to answer your question: There were 10 different cabs sizes and shapes in my test. The total weight of preforms in group 80PL is 210.39g (grams) the total weight in group 60PL is 212.79g. It took 168.02' to grind cutout preform to roughed out ready to dop cabs (group 80PL) on the DP 80grit Hex wheel (Used wheel probably 750 stones done on it). For group 60PL the process was a little different since my goal is to have preformed cabs ready to dop of the same size, weight and quality. that means I start grinding on the 60 grit wheel then finish on the 80 grit wheel. Make the preforms as close to exactly the same as possible. So Group 60PL took a combined time of 111.30'. So grinding on the 60 grit wheel saved me 56.72' of grinding time for the same shape, close to the same weight of rocks and using both the 60 grit and the 80 grit wheels. This made the combo of the two wheels about 33% faster than grinding on the 80 grit alone. Also note the rocks for the test are all Brazilian Agate and within the groups I tried to balance the weight as much as possible. And a an additional point of info the average material recovered was 63.2% for the 60PL group and 65.5% for the 80PL group. The 60PL group was faster grinding and the cabs lost more weight by about 4 grams than the 80PL group. Any more experiments |
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Post by rmf on Jun 14, 2024 10:06:30 GMT -5
OK to answer your question: There were 10 different cabs sizes and shapes in my test. The total weight of preforms in group 80PL is 210.39g (grams) the total weight in group 60PL is 212.79g. It took 168.02' to grind cutout preform to roughed out ready to dop cabs (group 80PL) on the DP 80grit Hex wheel (Used wheel probably 750 stones done on it). For group 60PL the process was a little different since my goal is to have preformed cabs ready to dop of the same size, weight and quality. that means I start grinding on the 60 grit wheel then finish on the 80 grit wheel. Make the preforms as close to exactly the same as possible. So Group 60PL took a combined time of 111.30'. So grinding on the 60 grit wheel saved me 56.72' of grinding time for the same shape, close to the same weight of rocks and using both the 60 grit and the 80 grit wheels. This made the combo of the two wheels about 33% faster than grinding on the 80 grit alone. Also note the rocks for the test are all Brazilian Agate and within the groups I tried to balance the weight as much as possible. And a an additional point of info the average material recovered was 63.2% for the 60PL group and 65.5% for the 80PL group. The 60PL group was faster grinding and the cabs lost more weight by about 4 grams than the 80PL group. Any more experiments The experiments continue but we lost a tree in a storm and I have had to deal with the fallout. Just got the hole where the root ball came out and have shoveled 3 tons of "topsoil" into the hole. In TN "topsoil" is sifted fill dirt. It will take years of me adding compost to make that crap grow decent grass.
I work on a plan of testing but $$ and time prevent me from experimenting as much as I would like. Will report back more as I finish testing.
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