inflight22
has rocks in the head
Member since January 2006
Posts: 710
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Post by inflight22 on May 3, 2006 14:27:13 GMT -5
You are free to make that choice.
jj
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lithrick
no posts
Member since July 2006
Posts: 0
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Post by lithrick on May 3, 2006 14:31:16 GMT -5
Of course, the statement then comes up that I should move to another country, then. To where can anyone move where corruption in government and arrogant nationalism does not exist? No where. It is worldwide, but also is nothing new. It is just far more large, complex, and interconnected worldwide than it has ever been.
I choose to focus on the idea of humanity as one family. I have no interest in being labeled as any nationality. Patriotism encourages a sense of "superiority", and I will not fall prey to that.
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Post by pho on May 3, 2006 14:52:44 GMT -5
You are one arrogant SOB....you have the nerve to run this country down and then say you don't want to leave it...hmmmm... You can always move to a country where you don't have any freedom....{auto-correct: MOV files not allowed}e to Cuba or Russia...or Mexico where you kind are welcome.... You want all the freedom and rights but you just don't want to earn them. All take and no give. This will be the last comment I make on this thread...I refuse to lower myself to your level. I am proud to be an American..I will salute the Flag...sing the National Anthem, and proudly repeat the Pledge of Allegience. America....love it or leave it
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Post by docone31 on May 3, 2006 16:56:58 GMT -5
I kinda lean towards Heinleinism. Citizenship should be earned. Citizens vote, can hold office. The remainder can do as they please, self supporting. I was a draftee. I faced jail time, or military service. I elected to go. Jail did not add up. I went under contientious objector status, which meant I did a lot of front line duty. Year before last, I was invited to a Memorial Day Dinner in Los Angeles. Thilly me, I thought it was a real Memorial Day Dinner. I did not know, it was a bash the Viet Nam era draftees, blame Reagon for Viet Nam, and the final dinner treat, bash marriage as slavery. I am usually vocal on a variety of subjects. I was speechless. Mind you, this is the same group who are now rewriting my wife's deceased mother's will so instead of getting 1/3rd of essentially nothing, to getting nothing and having to pay all the expenses! How the heck does someone rewrite a will after the fact? We are even disallowed to attain an attorney under the new will! I saw a lot of what we were fighting for in Viet Nam. Make no mistake, there was a lot of TV spin going on. Reagan was an actor when Truman signed the treaty, and I am sure there are a lot of other issues controlled by the media. Truth is usually boring so there is little coverage. Who wants to live in Yes, No, I do not know anyway? Some patriotism is provincial, but, there has to be something. In God We Trust. What is God? I am a pastor, silly me, I ponder this every day. I see into the eyes of a newborn, I see God. I have had people die in my arms, they all say the same thing. God Help Me! I have performed many marriages. I have seen the union. I have seen the spirit descend. I pray, it gives me a chance to get on my knees and break the arrogance I am capable of, even if it is for a moment. I believe, a belief in something keeps us from becoming machines with no purpose. Animals do not seem to care about a purpose, they just are. We design, create, fix, organize. We destroy with more efficiency than any animals ever could. Then comes an hurricane and shows us how strong we really are. Or a tornado, or tsunami. We have to believe. Otherwise, why give some of our food to someone in need, why stay with a spouse if they get ill, why not cut down everything in sight, or dump garbage in our own backyard? Why not just throw children out the door when they are not convient? If I have blind faith, and my leader is not governed by the same conscience I am, am I not then also guilty? In a perfect world, when everyone is governed by the same uplifting motive, are we prepared for the individual who is not? I will defend anyone's right to feel how they feel, no matter if I agree, or not. The mansion has many rooms. Some rooms I will never see, it is too large. I also have to take a stand on something, or I am an anybody. They lead me, the unknown. They, Anybody, Everybody, Somebody. Everybody knows, Somebody should have told you, Anybody can do it. They. Nobody always has the answer. Why not? How come really? Who says? Nobody is always alone, always questions, is never heard. Nobody gives the answer we need, we are always looking for Anybody, Everybody, Somebody. Nobody is jumping up and down and saying "Find out for yourself!" "Question it!" "Look it up!" "Why not!" Nobody is the Sage. Everybody says Everybody is doing it. Anybody can tell you anything. Somebody should have said, but Nobody answered. He said I do not know. If we really want to find out, we might have to do some work. We might have to do some thinking. We might have to say something. We might have to listen. Sometimes, folks have to grope around a while to find out what they really believe in. Meantime, I will continue to salute the flag. If someone wants to pop a beer and make a joke about me, I will have at least done what I believe in, and so have they. I do not know who is right, or who is wrong. If they stop me, I might take action. I won't stop them unless they cover me with beer spray. I do not like beer. If they bap me upside the head with 5lbs of Tanzanite, I might get mad, really mad. I might pick it up later, after my hands heal. Everyone has a country of origin. It is important to not lose culture, or be someone one is not. For better, or worse, I am an American. I was born here, and someday, I will probably die here. I do not want to be anywhere else. I did not like being shot over there anyhow. I know the rules here. We are all brothers, but I am not so big I can understand it all.
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Post by Cher on May 3, 2006 17:08:21 GMT -5
Of course, the statement then comes up that I should move to another country, then. To where can anyone move where corruption in government and arrogant nationalism does not exist? No where. It is worldwide, but also is nothing new. It is just far more large, complex, and interconnected worldwide than it has ever been. I choose to focus on the idea of humanity as one family. I have no interest in being labeled as any nationality. Patriotism encourages a sense of "superiority", and I will not fall prey to that. Considering how much you hate this country, WHY do you stay? And don't use the excuse of corruption in governments everywhere, if you're going to tear down our country at least you can be honest. You know damn well you stay here because of this exact thing, you can say what you want ... you have freedoms here you'd get no where else. Like I said Rick, at least be honest about why your still here ... cause you don't have the courage to go somewhere else to live where you get tossed in jail for talking like that. I'll include you in my prayers that you'll grow up one day and be honest about your life and why you stay here in the United States.
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inflight22
has rocks in the head
Member since January 2006
Posts: 710
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Post by inflight22 on May 3, 2006 18:51:41 GMT -5
I wish you all would not imply that people who are atheists must be monsters. I am an atheist and I have just as much morals and compassion as someone who believes in God. I just have it for other reasons, and am movitvated by other things. jj
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offbeat
no posts
Member since May 2010
Posts: 0
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Post by offbeat on May 3, 2006 19:07:28 GMT -5
I don't think Rick just hates this country, Cher. If you look over what Rich writes here there is bitterness in most of it. I think Rick would moan and groan if little gold nuggets fell out his arse! Nothing in this world will make him happy or meet his approval. I will not waste more thought of him.
God bless the USA! Bill
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Post by Cher on May 3, 2006 20:10:56 GMT -5
Jolene I sure hope they are not monsters, I'm married to one. He's still a good man and can believe what he wants (says he's too scientific) long as he lets me believe what I want. Come to think of it though, some of them are ... my mother-in-law was an athiest too .... well you know the old monster-in-law story. ;D
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Post by pho on May 3, 2006 20:37:56 GMT -5
On offense intended JJ...and I for one do not think everyone who does not beleive in God is a monster..or even bad.
Pho
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Post by docone31 on May 3, 2006 20:59:18 GMT -5
Gee, this is a great thread. I got so curious I actually read it from start to finish. Hermy really said it. People were ilbred. At the fleamarket where I have a shop, I meet all types of people. The few I meet that became American Citizens, miss their culture. This does not mean they would run back, they just miss what they grew up with. We have a lot of traditions here. I am not a liberal, I have my reasons. I am a Libertarian. I have a few friends that are vocal liberals. I have no friends that are Libertarians. We do not get along. We say hi, talk at each other, once in a while talk constitutional issues. Not friends though. I actually have more in common with Liberals. I think a component of living is to make descisions, judgements, errors, and mostly to learn something new everyday. I also like tradition. Memorial Day Parades were the most boring thing I ever experienced. Even after I came back and got off my crutches, Memorial Day Parades were the most boring thing I ever experienced. But, I watched kids learning to play instruments hoping to not embaress themselves too badly, old folks wearing uniforms, remembering their companions long past in one of the worst experiences a person can imagine, really precisely marching in step. The town Mayor making a really crappy speach, no one wanted to listen to, the 21 gun salute, the pastor saying a prayer, wives of the long gone soldiers crying in respect, loss, and most in hope of a better way. For one moment, everyone seemed to take a moment from themselves and extend a small piece of respect, not for war, but for the losses and the changes it produced. Tradition. Most of the new citizens I met missed the traditions they left behind. It was not the same to hold the tradition by them selves, they missed their culture. The pledge of allegence, the Lords Prayer, Moment of Silence. All traditions. In reality, when they are gone, what will take their place? We've always done it that way. Why? Somethings need change, but, the more things change, the more things remain the same. Each one of us is responsible. Each one of us is responsible for what we believe, and how we present it. But that is the joy of living. Sometimes it is tough. I really like this forum. It is the only one I still belong to. I have watched the changes almost from the beginning. I do not have much time anymore. I have too much work. Fuel is going through the roof, insurance is going up next renewal 3000%! I would be self insured, but, it is against the law here. I have read the fuel threads. I built my van to be a 383/350 425hp. It gets with 0lbs, or 6 tons, 22mpg. Our Suburban, with its 454, gets almost 18mpg at this point, and with a cam change I expect 24mpg. My emissions exceed EPA recquirements. I anticipated the fuel shortage and price expectations years ago, and learned about engines other than showing off. My choice. You guys are good people. Doc
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Post by Cher on May 3, 2006 21:41:58 GMT -5
Speaking of gas Doc, I slowed down from 70 to 65 when driving to the cities and increased my gas mileage from 19.1 to 29.9. Time to slow down and smell the roses, life goes by too fast anyway.
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offbeat
no posts
Member since May 2010
Posts: 0
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Post by offbeat on May 3, 2006 21:47:59 GMT -5
I'm trying to convince my wife that I should get a dirtbike to save on gas. So far, no go. But I will keep trying!! Bill
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fatrichie
has rocks in the head
Member since July 2004
Posts: 651
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Post by fatrichie on May 3, 2006 22:09:51 GMT -5
Our constituion, and it's bill of rights say that Rick's right to feel the he feels, are God given. So if one doesn't believe in God, then he can't support the idea that he has those rights, correct??
Further, as long as we're talking beliefs. Rick says:
"I would be selling my soul and my conscious if I showed respect to the national anthem, pledge of allegience, or to the flag itself. I will not bow to evil to simply please the majority."
How can he stay in a country he has no respect for if his beliefs, soul and consciousness are so important to him.
I am glad that I am not Rick, more glad I don't have to count on him for anything. I would fight to the death to defend his right to feel the way he does. I could not count on him to do the same. Nor do I believe he would stand up for his friends or family members who were in need, if it was not in line with his beliefs.
I may not agree with the things my country does, or the politicians who make the rules. But I WILL ALWAYS respect my country and those in positions of authority. Clinton was a lecherous, lying, coniving thief. I didn't vote for him. I didn't like his policies or pretty much anything he did. But he was my President, and deserving of respect.
Showing respect for this country, is not a compromise of beliefs, it is a confimation of those beliefs and thanks for the ability to state them in public.
The anthem, flag and the pledge of allegience are just ways of physically showing respect and to show how glad were are to live in such a place of fortune, freedom and opportunity.
You may not agree with everything this country stands for, but if you continue to call it home and accept it gifts and freedoms, then at the least show it respect.
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inflight22
has rocks in the head
Member since January 2006
Posts: 710
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Post by inflight22 on May 3, 2006 22:55:09 GMT -5
Yes, everyone here is good people, in my opinion. I've belonged to other message boards, and I'm sure others here have as well. They can be the most brutal places, but this one is good! Sometimes we don't understand a person or what he says, and we never have to ever talk to him again or agree with him. We can also state our minds. But dammit, that's what we're all about in this great country! That is what I'm so grateful for!
Cher, thanks for your understanding. Some of us just don't believe, and there is no social or political agenda behind it. When I say the pledge of allegiance, I also say the "under God" phrase, because that is the way my country states it. My beliefs are not about making a fuss over what others believe.
jj
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Post by docone31 on May 3, 2006 23:29:57 GMT -5
Cher, all engines have a sweet spot where they get optimum fuel mileage, torque, and overall performance. Back in my big truckin days, I drove a Mack CH600, with a Maxidyne, triplex trans, and rated for 80,000lbs. I hauled as contract carrier with a person who also had the same rig. We had paralell hauls. We went from Hartford Ct. to South Gate Los Angeles. Full out, full back. The other person was someone who liked to run hard and fast. I set my Jake at 62mph. For six months, we ran this once a week. Out and back. Same rig, same load, same roads, same scales, same truck stops, same tires. He always told me how much more money he made on the trip than me, and never stopped laughing. He went flat out. Averaged 4mpg. I cruised, averaged 6.5 mpg. He got tickets, fines, had tire blow outs, I got to the terminal 1/2 day later than him, with nothing extra to pay. Matching tire size to gearing, to conditions, and finding the sweet spot, can really pay off. Always use mid grade, or premium. Regular does not have the additives to keep the injectors clean. I also put 2 ozs of acetone per ten gallons. Cleans out the water from the fuel, and activates the gasoline. My mileage increased 10% city and highway. There are tricks out there. A cam swap also really helps the torque and mileage.
Pho, I agree. Never take a dump in your backyard. It puts out a conflicting message. It takes effort to take a dump in the bathroom, but less effort than cleaning up the mess when someone notices. Even if no one noticed right away, sooner or later even I would feel the overall effects. I might even, one day, feel embarassed, that is without even beginning to clean up the mess to either sell, or continue to live there. If I took too long to learn, one day, someone might notice and I might be strongly encouraged to take action. Even if no one noticed, I might end up one day with some humble pie that is pretty hard to chew. Then again, If I walked in the backyard, and tracked into my living room, not only did I mess my backyard, but, my floors might need cleaning. If my wife thought the backyard was ok, she might look at me differently, especially if she wanted to have friends and they thought we should first clean the floor. Patriotism does not mean fanatic devotion to a wrong. Patriotism does take a commitment, and can result in sacrifice. Is, however, anything worth it, without some sacrifice? My wife's family came over with Penn's original land grant. Her family walked west in the 1880's, losing several family members to starvation, general hazards. I have had a chance to read several manuscripts hand written by the prior members of her family. I am a jeweler, because in this country, I am free to do so. I cannot get a liscence in the Peoples Repubic of California, but then again, I do not want one there. I salute the flag, I put my hand over my heart with the pledge of allegence. I do not like the growing gestapo, but, I an horrified at aircraft reducing builldings to political rubble. By myself, I cannot do much. I can vote, help my neighbor, keep my lawn neat and not ragged, and most of all, I do not judge my neighbors. Fences make good neighbors, and I never enter my neighbors property for any reason unless they invite me. Clean house, trust God, help others. Even if God is Good Orderly Discipline. Whatever works. It all adds up.
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jrtrio
has rocks in the head
With10 tumblers tumbling the sound is so delicious!Send me more of those little red fellas, please?
Member since February 2006
Posts: 535
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Post by jrtrio on May 4, 2006 4:07:19 GMT -5
I stand at every National Anthem, America the Beautiful, whatever they are singing at the moment. But, I think the main reason why the patriotism is dropping more and more each day is the reason why it's being called for more and more each day. And that's because the man in the drivers seat has driven us in a direction that we had already been in and those of us who were there for ther first drive sure as hell didn't want to go along again! But, we have to respect the man and go along with him even when he's done more than he should without a plan to come back home. Mission Accomplished means that the war is done, the troops are home and the people we were sent over to "rescue" are now safe and sound with their new government taking care of them. And since the people driving the good ship Uss don't have a clue it's easy for people to start losing their patriotism even tho it's not for the man but the country. I'd like to see more myself...but then again I'd have like to have seen a little...just a little when I came home in 1975. Guess we didn't have some yutz in a flight suit telling us we were heros then. We didn't have much of anyone telling us anything! Can you imagine coming home after serving without a welcome home parade? A welcome home party? How about a thank you of any kind? Well....you're welcome anyway. It was my pleasure. Mine and 58,000 or more that weren't able to come home. Don't let them build a monument for your children folks. Don't you dare let them.
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Post by hermatite on May 4, 2006 10:07:56 GMT -5
I think what it comes down to is respect. And what I'm seeing is that most of us, basically, respect each others' right to hold our own stupid and ill informed opinions. Me? not a fan of religion. Do I care if people pray? Nope. Also, I'm not an American citizen. Do I stand up and pay attention when they play the american national anthem? Of course I do. My mother raised me right, you see. When you're in someone else's house, you eat what they cook. It's just basic common courtesy. It's not about god or loving this country or bowing to the government. It's being POLITE. I'm really not getting why this is such a hard concept to understand. You treat people like you want to be treated. You don't call names unless you wanted to be called out. You pay attention when someone speaks to you and you don't hurt people or things unnecessarily.
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Post by Cher on May 4, 2006 11:22:54 GMT -5
Well said Herm!!
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stefan
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2005
Posts: 14,113
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Post by stefan on May 4, 2006 11:38:55 GMT -5
I can not even play the Nation Anthem on the Guitar- without tearing up- We have a Parade in out town- It is always kicked off with out Legion post marching Old GLory down the street- It makes me so freaking Angry that people do not stop- stand up and take there hats off as she passes- I would yell at people- but I'm too busy standing proud in honor of out Flag, Country, and those that fight to keep us free! If you can't pay this small tribute to your country- then Move out!
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Post by hermatite on May 4, 2006 13:08:18 GMT -5
*raps stefan on the knuckles with a ruler* I said "BE POLITE"!!!
(kidding)
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