earthdog
Cave Dweller 
Don't eat yellow snow
Member since June 2006
Posts: 2,731
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Post by earthdog on Jan 24, 2008 0:25:42 GMT -5
We need to come up with some ways to safeguard yourself or a basic tutorial when making trades and such with others here.
After making my post yesterday about a nonpaying member, I have gotten 3 PM's today asking me about other members. These 3 people sent out a box of rocks as part of their deal and now have heard nothing back from their traders and never received a box back as the deal on their trade.
There are alot of people here I would trust sending a box to first or as Dave did send the box before he got payment.
It seems there alot of people here that are getting burned on a trade or deal and they are to nice to call the person out on it.
In other posts alot of you have said they should name names when it is clearly a deal gone bad.
I know I'm not like alot of people, (no goofy comments) but I'm not afraid to say something when someone screws me over. Remember the gemmaster deal? Once I called him on it in the forum, there was a few more people that spoke up on how he ripped them also.
If you make a deal to trade or whatever and it turns out that person is a shiester, don't be afraid to write about it. Help someone else out so they don't trade with them and get burned either.
Some of my suggestions are,
if you don't know the person very well like we know Randy, Stefan, Rocky, Cher and other great members that are in good standing here, get their phone number and call them first, tell them you want their number so you can talk to them by phone about the deal/trade. That way when you don't hear from them for a month or 4 and don't get a box back in you're trade you can call them. Maybe then someone will tell you at that number that the person in question is in the hospital and almost died. I'd especially get a phone number and call them first if they only have like 75 posts. If they don't want to give you their number so you can call them, then I wouldn't send anything to them or you could tell them you will send your box after you receive theirs.
If they can afford a computer and an internet hookup they can afford a phone of some sort.
Take pictures of the rocks you are sending. Take them wet so they show the colors or banding. That way you have some proof of what you sent.
( like gemmaster telling me I sent him doggy doo)
If you sent a box of laguna agates and they were any good quality, then didn't get the box back that you dealed on, like one person told me they did, I think you are out some money then. I'd be pissed.
Take a picture or two of the rocks in the box with the packing junk so they can't say you didn't pack it well
Take pictures of the box you get in return as soon as you open it and look into the box, to show or have proof of how they packed it. (remember the pictures I took of the rock dust from jdennis?)
Take pictures of the rocks you received wet to show the colors so you have proof of what they sent you. You can use these pictures to post and get others opinions if you feel you got ripped off. Some members won't want you to call them out and post picture proof of what you sent and what you got in return.
Get a Delivery Confirmation when you mail your box, it's only $.50 more. That way they can't ever say the box got lost in the mail and never made it here.
Does anyone have anything else they could add to this post to help others so they don't get burned on a deal/trade?
If someone plans on ripping a member off and they see this post maybe they will think twice about doing the ripoff.
Alright now, lets recap:
1- get a phone number and call them first.
2- take pictures of your rocks wet and of the packing job you did, for proof.
3- take pictures of their box at opening
4- take pictures of their rocks wet for proof.
5- get delivery confirmation.
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Post by sandsman1 on Jan 24, 2008 0:44:55 GMT -5
hell forgot to clic send haha
but this is what i think
anyone in a trade with less then a year and say 200 post will send there part of the trade first,-- when received there box will be sent
and if its a money deal it should be treated like a store would and box will ship when payment has cleared the bank
its a shame it has to be this way we never had to do it like this before but this is getting out of hand and like i said a long time ago -- if someone screws up and wont reply to Pm's/emails please post it so your the only person that they screw
and if it was a real mistake it can always be deleted and an apology sent for the post
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Saskrock
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since October 2007
Posts: 1,852
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Post by Saskrock on Jan 24, 2008 0:52:55 GMT -5
This won't work on a trade but on a deal you could always have the seller put it on Ebay for a pre arranged "Buy it now" price at a agreed time so it doesent get missed. I did this once on some sapphires I bought from a guy I met online. You have some Ebay fees this way but you also have some protection by using Paypal, and something formal to go through if there is a problem. Not perfect but better than nothing.
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stefan
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2005
Posts: 14,113
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Post by stefan on Jan 24, 2008 8:20:04 GMT -5
Good Idea Scott- but some of us (ok maybe it's just me) don't do Ebay- as a matter of fact I despise it (of course that could all change) and I got into a real pissing match with a former memeber when I called him out on some Ebay stuff.
I really hate that this board has come to this. I have NEVER had a trade go sour (at least at my end). I have been a little slow at times getting stuff out- or had trouble finding what I had promised to show someone. But I ALWAYS try to keep that person in mind and at least PM them (something simple like "duh- I forgot to send the check- sorry- my bad I'll get it out ASAP). Most of the time I get a pretty kind response ("no hurry" or "well I needed the money to feed the kids- but hey they were looking a little chuncky anyway") Point is that keeping the lines of communication open is often the only thing one needs to do. I also make sure to PM the person when I do send out the stuff ("check in the mail" or "drop you freakin 22 Lb box of crapola rock on my foot- and now I'm in the hospital with a broken toe- but your stupid rocks are are the way") Now I don't sell stuff- I mostly buy and trade. I'm going to be sure that any purchases are paid for UP FRONT (I don't care who you are and who I am- all purchases are paid for up front). As far as trades go- Well I ususally screen who I trade with- so If I seem to reject your offers- it is probabaly cause I don't know you well enough and I'm leary. (Thank goodness I did not fall for that gemmaster crap- I PMed him several times about various offers and I never got a good feeling from him- so I stayed away) OH and I have NO PROBLEM naming names! If you screw me over I'm gonna tell! (And I will be the first to apologize if you make good on your end!)
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earthdog
Cave Dweller
Don't eat yellow snow
Member since June 2006
Posts: 2,731
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Post by earthdog on Jan 24, 2008 9:21:44 GMT -5
I don't understand why it won't work on a trade... I think it'll work very much and better than the idea of "buy it now" on ebay.
I'll tell you most of the 5 items I listed have worked before. And if someone won't give me a phone number so I can call them, I won't deal/trade.
Your suggestion about having the seller but it up on ebay for a buy it now price, I don't think is very good. What if you make the deal with another and they throw it on ebay tonight with the buy it now, you can't get on the computer untill tomorrow after work, and someone else buys it? The seller also will have to pay a fee to ebay for the listing and if your deal was to pay for the rocks, the seller would then have to pay a paypal fee to boot.
So I think that idea kinda sucks. If you want to do it that way, go ahead. A deal or mainly a trade between tow people here, at RTH you both will pay the FRB shipping so both are out nothing more than the other.
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floydrocks
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since December 2007
Posts: 177
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Post by floydrocks on Jan 24, 2008 9:37:58 GMT -5
I'm the one that traded the Lagunas with yogibear. He has not answered my PM's or email. I still have the picture of them and there was 50 in the box. I guess it's my fault for not checking on members. I'm a very trusting person...when I was turned on to this site, I was very excited. We do freeform pendants and have a lot of material..scrapes and slabs... that we can't use. Thought it would be great to be able to share what we couldn't use. I even sent a small box to rockhobbits..I think I got that right..friend for his B-Day. I think most people here are very honest and it sucks that a few slip in that aren't. I have learned so much from this board and have laughed like crazy from some of the posts. Earthdog and Roxy... you just make my day!!!! Anyway I'll just be more carefully in the future. It's just hard to believe that there are dishonest rockhounds. We're all in it for the same reason..to put smiles on our faces and others. Isn't Mother Nature great?  |
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earthdog
Cave Dweller
Don't eat yellow snow
Member since June 2006
Posts: 2,731
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Post by earthdog on Jan 24, 2008 9:57:23 GMT -5
May I ask what "scrapes and slabs" are?
Did you scrape your slabs?
I'm only messin with ya.
Post the picture of the rocks you sent him if you want. We all like pictures.
Like I PM'ed you check your outbox and see if he opened your PM.
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AgateHeaven
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since September 2007
Posts: 197
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Post by AgateHeaven on Jan 24, 2008 10:00:03 GMT -5
I am one of those who have internet and no phone. I have cable broadband. I am on a limited income and choose not to spend 80 bucks a month on a phone. The only sister I speak to lives in Dallas and we talk on yahoo IM chat. It's free what's better than that. I agree though be careful with whom you deal. I have rocks Id love to swap but since I may not know quality as well as the more experienced here, I really havent offered. Mainly because I would feel horrible if my "pretty rocks" were totally worthless. Ya'll have made me feel at home here and for this I feel loyalty to this board. Thanks. Im starting to ramble sooo ill shut up
AgateHeaven
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Post by Lady B on Jan 24, 2008 10:10:48 GMT -5
but this is what i think anyone in a trade with less then a year and say 200 post will send there part of the trade first,-- when received there box will be sent and if its a money deal it should be treated like a store would and box will ship when payment has cleared the bank its a shame it has to be this way we never had to do it like this before but this is getting out of hand and like i said a long time ago -- if someone screws up and wont reply to Pm's/emails please post it so your not the only person that they screw and if it was a real mistake it can always be deleted and an apology sent for the post Hmmmm.... Based on what has been written here and in several other threads it appears there are some strong feelings about Newbies trading and/or paying for FRBs, rocks, products, etc. As a semi-Newbie--I haven't been a member for a year yet although I've posted enough to qualify for the moniker "Lady Blabberposter--I'd like to voice a concern I have. How do Newbies KNOW who to trust? At what point do we know that when we send a check, have the cancelled check in hand, have the PMs saying the box has been sent, yet still do not have the rocks...at what point do know that despite the fact that the member has been on this Forum for years and has racked up the posts and has been praised by others, the respected, established member is lying. That the check has indeed been cashed and the money spent and the FRB remains sitting in the respected member's house. What's the magic formula for trust? I don't think it is based on length of membership or number of posts or accolades offered. I think it is all a matter of personal integrity and all the guidelines, embarrassments, and threats in the world aren't going to change personal integrity. One of my earliest transactions here at RTH was also one of my most embarrassing. I bought a box of geodes and mixed rocks from Steve Holmes. I was at the PO the next morning, buying the Money Order and sending it straight off to Steve. When the FRB, filled to bursting, arrived two days later, I almost cried at the beauty and the quantity of the rocks he had packed in that box. I sent him a PM of THANKS right away. And then I did cry when several days later Steve let me know that he still had not received the Money Order. Ironically my next day's mail solved the mystery for me...my numerical dyslexia had kicked in when I wrote out his address and the PO in Clinton, Utah couldn't figure out where to send Steve's envelope so they sent it back to me...10 days after I had first mailed it First Class. Steve was incredibly generous--he didn't get on the Forum and tell everyone what I did. And he trusted me enough that he sold me another box of geodes and sent them before he received my check (which arrived on a timely basis because I had someone check my numbers three times before I mailed the envelope). He is such a gentle man that he asked me to help with the Gift Exchange. And trust me...that was an undertaking that involved tremendous trust!!!! So once again I ask...What's the magic formula for trust? Steve trusted me when I PM'd him that I had sent the Money Order. His trust was eventually rewarded. I trusted many RTHers to send me what they promised and in most instances, my trust was rewarded. But on what basis did we trust? Length of memberships? Numbers of posts? Photos posted? Inherent beliefs in people's goodness? By now most RTHers know that I have a hot temper and a short fuse if I think someone is being ripped off or treated unfairly. I've jumped into hot water on a regular basis here and done a fair share of tongue-lashing. I get bent real fast. But, deep inside, I also want to believe in the inherent goodness of people. So, if anyone has the magic formula for trust, please share it. Length of membership, numbers of postings, high praise for a member--they weren't quite the best yardsticks to use in all of my transactions. Fortunately for me, most of the people I have "met" here at RTH do have a good sense of personal integrity. Having a basic tutorial on trading and buying sounds like a nice idea. I just don't know how you can tutor adults on honesty and integrity. Lady B |
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misguidedone
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since May 2007
Posts: 94
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Post by misguidedone on Jan 24, 2008 10:32:23 GMT -5
Screw me once, shame on you. Screw me twice, shame on me! This is what I live by. I am not a prolific poster and may be considered a newbie for a long time to come and 200 posts................ well, that won't happen. I don't E-Bay and would hate to see trades go that way. I've donated slabs, given away rock and traded with several members on this site, with no problems at all. I have a open profile and you could look me up and fly to my home on Google Earth. None of these things can guarantee that we get the trade we were hoping for. If your promised trade to me doesn't arrive, I'll ask you about it here on RTH....... If you don't reply, then shame on you!
Steve
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mirkaba
spending too much on rocks
Member since August 2006
Posts: 321
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Post by mirkaba on Jan 24, 2008 11:09:19 GMT -5
Howdy...I have been on a tech board for about 6 years and done quite a bit of trading, buying selling there. It seems that there are a lot of unscrupulous people in the tech end of the internet, regular burn artists. The board maintains a troll list of known thieves, ripoffs and such and everything known is posted..names, addresses, phone etc. There is also an independant feedback forum that is used (heatware) to rate traders as well as ebay feedback. I prefer a less formal trading environment myself but once a trading forum gets so big the riffraff that is always there most definately needs to be dealt with....Bob
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Post by sandsman1 on Jan 24, 2008 11:46:44 GMT -5
lady b if the respected member your talkin about did deals like that they wouldent be respected /or still around no matter how many posts they have made im bettin haha,,, and dam sure wouldent be respected
and the reason i say so many posts and time here is we never had this kinda stuff happen in the beginning -- then we started growing -- nuttin wrong with that but things have to change with growth --- i hate seeing a member put there trust out there and then nuttin,, im not saying a newb cant trade im saying till there not a newb anymore they need to follow a set of trading rules and i dont see why they wouldent, i would understand if i was a newb here and was told look we dont know you that well and for this trade to happen you must send out your side first, and sooner or later if they stick around they will have to tell the newbs commin in the same thing so its not like there being punished there growing a rep here
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Post by Lady B on Jan 24, 2008 12:01:57 GMT -5
lady b if the respected member your talkin about did deals like that they wouldent be respected /or still around no matter how many posts they have made im bettin haha,,, and dam sure wouldent be respected and the reason i say so many posts and time here is we never had this kinda stuff happen in the beginning -- then we started growing -- nuttin wrong with that but things have to change with growth --- i hate seeing a member put there trust out there and then nuttin im not saying a newb cant trade im saying till there not a newb anymore they need to follow a set of trading rules and i dont see why they wouldent, i would understand if i was a newb here and was told look we dont know you that well and for this trade to happen you must send out your side first, and sooner or later if they stick around they will have to tell the newbs commin in the same thing so its not like there being punished there growing a rep here Sands, As a Newb, I have absolutely no problem in sending the money first and then getting the FRB or the slab or the cab or the geode or what ever. My dilemma was that I DID send the money first. Got the cancelled check to prove it. Exchanged PMs with the RTHer. Was lied to. Eventually the RTHer told me the truth and eventually sent me what I bought. Until the lie, I had no way of knowing that there was going to be a problem. Granted, there were no guidelines posted. But this particular RTHer has been a member for a long time. Has lots of posts. Receives lots of praise. What bothered me most was not the "delay" in getting my purchase. What bothered me was the lie--even as this person continued to be a praiseworthy, established member. There can be posted rules for Newbies who want to buy or trade--I have no problem with that nor should any Newbie object who honestly wants to be here. I'm just thinking that the same rules might also need to be posted for established members. Lady B |
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chassroc
Cave Dweller
Rocks are abundant when you have rocktumblinghobby pals
Member since January 2005
Posts: 3,586
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Post by chassroc on Jan 24, 2008 12:50:43 GMT -5
Unless they have no shame, Anyone who wants to remain in the forum will not screw or shortchange another member.
Despite being a tightfisted fiscal conservative, my liberal social views generally take over when trading with other members. I assume the other side will "do unto me as I would have done unto them". This works most of the time. If they don't I try to remind them and if that does not work, I generally let it go(shit happens all time and there is usually a good reason for it). I have never been mistreated by anyone who is an active participant in this form (and I hope noone has been mistreated by me).
I do keep my eyes open( I am a city boy and real cautious). If it smells like a rat or too good to be true, It just might be. So if someone offers me 10% of a million to use my identity or bank account, I decline.
csroc
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Post by sandsman1 on Jan 24, 2008 13:17:39 GMT -5
well thats another reason i spoke up this time and last -- nobody brings it to the attention of the board and last time one person had screwed like 6 people befor his name was made public----- like i said above
if someone screws up and wont reply to Pm's/emails please post it so your the only person that they screw
and if it was a real mistake it can always be deleted and an apology sent for the post
if nobody ever says who is cheating members they keep goin till someone speaks up --- it must just be me if someone screws me and im close enough to get ahold of them -- when they wake up i usually get what was promised -- so for sure if there states away im gonna open my mouth here and let people know this person is out to cheat people -- i dont see whats so hard about doin that --- and if i screw somebody id expect anyone to do the same to me -- i also understand theres things that pop up from time to time that change the best of plans and promises and hiding from emails is not the way to handle it id rather say im sorry i dont have the cash something came up or im my case i took two perks for my back and compleatly forgot hahaha -- then duck and dodge
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mike4bears
spending too much on rocks
Member since December 2007
Posts: 275
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Post by mike4bears on Jan 24, 2008 14:17:20 GMT -5
well here is my 2 cents. I'm new here. and i have already done a trade and and bought a box. on the trade i sent a box. and got one back when i open it and saw what they sent. i felt like i had cheated them. what they had sent was so nice. and the one i had bought. i told them i had to wait a few days to send the check. well when i went to the mail box to send the check. the mail man was there and gave me the box. and ask what was this rocks. anyway they sent it before they had the check. i teared up that some one would do that. and one thing reading these post i think naming names is the way to go. but in this whole post i did not see one name that had cheated some one mike
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misguidedone
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since May 2007
Posts: 94
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Post by misguidedone on Jan 24, 2008 15:14:47 GMT -5
How about this: Vendors/Members - The Good The Bad and the Ugly.
I never assumed that the longevity of members or number of posts had anything to do with their honesty. If you do, you need to turn off your computer and go out into the real world. Trades are between two people, not the entire membership of RTH. Guidelines to follow while trading are a good idea, but to require it................... I don't like that. 1000's of post don't make honest people! You either had it or didn't when you joined this forum.
Don't paint all newbies with the same brush.
Steve
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earthdog
Cave Dweller
Don't eat yellow snow
Member since June 2006
Posts: 2,731
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Post by earthdog on Jan 24, 2008 16:36:24 GMT -5
Let me say That I don't care if you have 2 posts or 20,000 posts. I will safeguard all my trades as best I can. My thoughts in the thread starter here were that if you have 10 posts and are trading with someone with 10,000 posts you still need to protect yourelf as well as you can. Like Lady says about it's not fair to put a time or number on newbies, I agree.
A new person here doesn't know who to trust as much as a seasoned member doesn't know which newbies to trust. My suggestions were for everyone not just the older fart members.
Like in my case with jdennis I told her I was going to post pictures of her junk she sent if she didn't refund my money back from her ebay auction. She had my money back in my paypal account within 2 hours. So the humiliation factor plays a big part here in this forum. Nobody wants to be named a rat here.
How are you going to call 911 if your house catches fire? Yahoo IM?
I'm only giving you greif...
Case in point, gemmaster.
I'm sorry I didn't make it more clear.
Here are a few, jdennis, gemmaster, cleo12797, tmorris, bambam's wife and thats just to name a few....
If you want to trade/deal with anyone, go right a head, if you get burned let us all know.
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Post by deb193redux on Jan 24, 2008 21:11:27 GMT -5
I really don't like the buy-sell-trade section used for listing transactions that move to email or take place on ebay or the sellers web site.
If people post a sale or trade in this section, both parties should post in the thread when they send and receive. This creates a track record of good trades.
Whenever I bought something here, I always posted a pic of what I got. This lets others know that the deal went off, and that the offering photos weren't doctored.
I think the only thing that can be done though is a PINNED piece of advice with suggestions like phone#'s and posting followup and that RTH does not vouch for anyone - especially newbies ... etc.
If you look at Mark's original guidelines it looks to me like more trades than sales were envisioned. There is a lot of stuff about "local rocks" and be clear about exactly what will be sent ...
Since that guideline was written this section has become more selling than trading and more often announcing sales on ebay or through email. I think that is unfortunate.
E-dog's ideas about better guidelines, and about letting folks know about bad deals ... they are all good. Getting back to a more cosy space for trading/sales among members who have seen each other around and have interacted for some time in other posts... priceless.
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AgateHeaven
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since September 2007
Posts: 197
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Post by AgateHeaven on Jan 24, 2008 21:12:15 GMT -5
lol, no problem, I have marshmallows and weinies stored in the freezer in the detached garage! ;D Because I live so far out in the sticks the last time we called 911 it took 1 hour for the volunteers to respond.  but, <giggle> I'm insured and ready for a weinie roast ! AgateHeaven |
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but, <giggle> I'm insured and ready for a weinie roast !
