firstrune
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2009
Posts: 156
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Post by firstrune on Jan 1, 2009 20:57:21 GMT -5
Hello, I'm new to rock tumbling and the board, I posted an intro over on the intro section and have come here (hopefully the right sub-forum) to ask a couple of questions. I have read Steve Hart's book, Modern Rock Tumbling, and at this point it's my only frame of reference for tumbling. One of the questions I have from there is the use of the "rock hardness pick set", which is something he highly recommends. I have looked at those and they are a bit pricey for my budget right now, so my question is, how many of you use these sets and do you think them essential to the process? Would I be further ahead to wait until I have one to do my first batch of rocks?
Second, I'm in northwest Missouri, and have a fairly large rock collection from the past two years. Much of it is quartz, but there are other rocks in there as well. Due to the fact that I have zero experience at this (my husband gave me the rock tumbler as a gift this Christmas) would I be further ahead to order a batch of rocks from a dealer which would be basically the same type/hardness or try to guess at which rocks I should put together from my collection for my first try at this?
Lastly, I have the Thumler A-R2 which has the two barrels. In Hart's book he talks a great deal about the importance of not contaminating batches between the various stages. For those of you who have this tumbler, do you use one barrel for just the coarse grinding and then the second for polish stages only?
I'm really not looking for perfection at this point, just experience, but I would like to try to get everything as correct as possible to avoid disappointment.
Thank you in advance for any advice and help you can offer.
Bonnie
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drjo
fully equipped rock polisher
Honduran Opal & DIY Nut
Member since May 2008
Posts: 1,581
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Post by drjo on Jan 1, 2009 22:04:11 GMT -5
The picks are nice and make you look like you know what your doing, but forget to bring them and a scavenging trip and your right back to newbie.  Learn how the old timers did it first, especially since your just wanting to be in the ballpark. Your finger nail is roughly a 2.5 on the mohs scale A penny is a 3.0 Steel blade of a pocket knife ~ 5.5 A sharp quartz point ~ 7.0 Corundum (aluminum oxide / most cheap knife sharpening stones ~ 9.0 You may have all these things already. When scratching a softer rock with a harder test piece you'll feel it 'dig' in. Always carry a good magnifying glass (3x-10x) to tell what is scratching what. A cheap dollar store pair of reading glasses @ 3.00 are a good start too. I think it's most fun to tumble what you've found. Do your hardness test on your pieces of all different sizes and sort accordingly, get enough together for a full load and have at it. Using separate barrels is great, except you have 2 barrels and 4-5 processes  Patience also kicks in somewhere around here too. Your first rough grind may not finish enough for a full load in the next sequence. I suggest using both barrels the fist time for rough and then sorting, and throwing the unfinished stones back in one barrel to continue rough grinding and clean the second barrel out completely and moving on to the next grade with it This way you can keep a rough grind always going. At a month or two per grit this seems to work pretty well. Read around here as there are many recipes to the actual rock tumbling. And there is an incredible amount of knowledge here too. Welcome to the institution, we run the place ;D Dr Joe . |
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chassroc
Cave Dweller 
Rocks are abundant when you have rocktumblinghobby pals
Member since January 2005
Posts: 3,586
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Post by chassroc on Jan 2, 2009 10:15:57 GMT -5
Bonnie, welcome to RTH! I hope you find happiness in the hobby.
If you can afford the luxury of separate barrels, go ahead, but I think this is not where you should spend your resources. I don't find it necessary and even if you do have separate barrels for each stage, cross contamination will occur if the rocks are not cleaned well enough between batches.
In theory, Cross contamination may be less of an issue than you think because of the progressive nature of rock tumbling. Your Coarse Grit breaks down over time and becomes more like medium grit. Medium grit breaks down and becomes more like fine grit, etc.
csroc
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firstrune
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2009
Posts: 156
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Post by firstrune on Jan 2, 2009 10:52:38 GMT -5
Dr. Joe, thank you so much for the great information! I've printed out your "hardness scale" and will make good use of it. I will also follow your advice regarding the use of the barrels, it sounds as though the processes would move along better utilizing both barrels rather than specifying one for polish stages only. At this point, I'm slowly putting together a work space and need to make a container hunting trip today, as well as hopefully finding a magnifier. Thank you for your welcome to the Institution!  Bonnie |
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firstrune
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2009
Posts: 156
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Post by firstrune on Jan 2, 2009 10:57:10 GMT -5
Csroc, thank you for the welcome!! Thank you as well for alleviating some of my concerns about cross contamination. This was becoming, for me, a very large issue and one I was probably spending too much concern on. I spent a great deal of time over the holidays looking for books on rock tumbling, but to my frustration there is not a great deal available out there, so that's where forums such as this become such an asset to someone new. I'd like to thank all of you for your generosity in sharing your experience and knowledge.
Bonnie
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fanatic
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since October 2007
Posts: 233
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Post by fanatic on Jan 2, 2009 13:04:48 GMT -5
Welcome Bonnie!
If you can't find the answer from the RTH family you probably don't need it!
Seriously though, a year ago I was in the same position you are and I ended up here. Best move I could have made. Theres a wealth of information here. No matter how strange you think the question go ahead and ask.
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ejs
spending too much on rocks
Member since July 2008
Posts: 478
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Post by ejs on Jan 2, 2009 13:39:57 GMT -5
Bonnie: Welcome! You are among friends here - no need to fear any question!
If you can use both barrels at once, then I would say to start both of them off with rough. That stage can take quite a while, so running two at once will definitely help move things along. I run my 60/90 rough in 5 day rounds. At the end of each round, I check for any that are well rounded and set those aside in a jar for medium. Then I add some fresh rock, new grit and run again. When you have enough material done with the rough stage, you can dedicate one barrel to medium, and then keep the other one running rough. That way, by the time the one barrel makes it through medium->prepolish->polish, you will be close to having enough rough to start down that path again.
I keep separate barrels for the different stages, but I don't think that is necessary as long as you are careful about cleaning out the barrels very well when it is going to move forward (i.e. from rough to medium - I wouldn't worry about a thorough cleaning if going backward from medium to rough). I clean them under a strong downspout outside, and then scrub the creases with an old toothbrush. That seems to do the trick. And then make sure that none of your rocks have cracks/crevices that might hide grit that could ruin the next stage. If you are reasonably careful about it, I think you'll have good results.
Good luck, experiment, have fun, and keep us posted!
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chassroc
Cave Dweller
Rocks are abundant when you have rocktumblinghobby pals
Member since January 2005
Posts: 3,586
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Post by chassroc on Jan 2, 2009 15:59:22 GMT -5
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drjo
fully equipped rock polisher
Honduran Opal & DIY Nut
Member since May 2008
Posts: 1,581
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Post by drjo on Jan 2, 2009 23:31:59 GMT -5
Oh yeah, almost forgot...these things are relatively NOISY, so place accordingly , not so far away that you'll forget about it or can't hear it if a belt should break (have a spare on hand!) and not so close that it ends your marital bliss. You can build a cover to lessen the noise too. Dr Joe . |
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navi
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since November 2008
Posts: 229
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Post by navi on Jan 3, 2009 10:27:47 GMT -5
welcome, my fellow missourian!!!! my suggestion, when starting out, is tumbling what you have found. a) it's something you truly create from start to finish, b) you learn about your local rocks faster and what will tumble. when you get into it, go on fieldtrips, or buy/trade material from other areas.
i check my tumblers daily and inspect stones. in the grind stage, i tend to overload, then remove stones i know won't look good as i find them. (mainly in the first 2 days when the slurry is forming, and i can finally make out what the stone will be. but if it's small, i leave it in, to help move slurry between stones. this creates a wee bit more room for the stones to grind too. sometimes you just can't tell, when you put them in at the start.) between stages, i clean every rock with a toothbrush to remove anything. also, it helps find rough spots. any rock that isn't ready to move to the next stage, goes in coarse again. in other stages, i check the stones for cracks and rough spots. if i find any, i remove them, don't want them scratching up other stones in the load.
where in no mo are you? what quartz have you found there, was it out of a river/creek, or glacial deposit?
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firstrune
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2009
Posts: 156
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Post by firstrune on Jan 3, 2009 10:49:22 GMT -5
Fanatic, thank you for the welcome! I appreciate it. I truly am grateful to have found this forum and community. I think Hart's book is a great reference point, but I also think there are so many aspects to rock tumbling, and so many "ways" to get the job done, you need to listen to all the ideas. I'm looking forward to showing all of you my first batch! I'm sure it won't be anything spectacular, but I'll be glad to share. I'm certain I'll also be busy in here along the way with questions.  Bonnie |
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firstrune
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2009
Posts: 156
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Post by firstrune on Jan 3, 2009 10:56:42 GMT -5
Ejs, thank you for the welcome! What a great community here, I feel as though I've really found a huge gold pot of knowledge and experience!
I appreciate your advice as well on utilizing both barrels simultaneously. I think I could have truly prolonged this process by dedicating one barrel to polish only stage. I also realized in reading your post that I forgot to pick up some extra toothbrushes for cleaning barrels and rocks. I need to add those to the list of equipment.
Now I'm going to ask a question that I think may not have a sturdy definitive answer. All of you seem to know when it's time to move to the next stage of tumbling. How do you determine that? Is a matter of counting days, or do the rocks have a specific telltale sign? I realize that this can be a hard question to answer, but it also seems to be the one stage at which you can meet with failure or success. It seems from what I've learned so far that moving them too soon to the next stage is a sure formula for failure, but can you leave the rocks too long in a stage and also suffer failure?
Bonnie
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firstrune
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2009
Posts: 156
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Post by firstrune on Jan 3, 2009 10:58:21 GMT -5
chassroc, thank you for the GREAT link!! I'm going to print some of his information out for my journal.
Bonnie
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firstrune
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2009
Posts: 156
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Post by firstrune on Jan 3, 2009 11:02:38 GMT -5
Drjo, your comment made me laugh and gosh did you hit the nail on the head with that one! ;D Along with all my other concerns about doing this right, finding a good place to "set up shop" without causing my husband to find huge regret with his decision to give me a tumbler for Christmas has been a dilemma. We don't have a basement in our house, so that's not an option. We do have another house on the property and I considered that for a workstation, but I cannot closely monitor nor hear the tumbler there, so that's something I need to work out and through. I did pick up several supplies yesterday and I'm that much more anxious to get on with this.
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firstrune
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2009
Posts: 156
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Post by firstrune on Jan 3, 2009 11:25:57 GMT -5
navi, a huge thank you for the welcome from Missouri!! After drjo's comments about the reward of tumbling rocks from your own hunts and collections, I have decided that's what I'll do. I have added about 20 more rocks to that collection over the weekend. I truly appreciate your tips and advice regarding the tumbling process. I'm worried that my largest challenge will be knowing "when" to move on to the next stage. Is there any possibility that some of you could help me out with that stage if I were to post pictures of the rocks when I "think" they may be ready, or is this something you really need a hands-on feel to know? navi, I'm tucked way up in the northwest corner of the state, close to the Iowa border. As to what kind of quartz I've found, it's mostly red, some white, some of a tannish/goldish haze. As to where the rock originated from, well I fear I have to really show my ignorance and tell you "I don't know". We have a large farm which houses a large herd of Miniature horses and most of these rocks are found in their dry lot paddocks, as we have run off and the earth shifts to a more comfortable position, many of them come to the surface. I have read that this area of MO is full of underground rivers and perhaps that's where they come from? This summer we found a rose quartz boulder that is truly the largest I've ever seen. It was hiding out in one of the paddocks when I discovered it and I convinced my husband we needed to dig it out of there and bring it back to the house for one of the gardens. Little did I know that digging that boulder would be such a huge undertaking. We dug and dug and finally met the bottom of the boulder. Moving it by ourselves was out of the question, so my husband retrieved his tractor and we tied a chain around it to move it up to the house. I'll take a pic of it if you're interested in seeing it. Bonnie |
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navi
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since November 2008
Posts: 229
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Post by navi on Jan 3, 2009 12:21:53 GMT -5
at least for the coarse grind, you can stick a finger in and touch the bottom of the barrel. if you feel grit/slurry, keep the tumbler rollin'. when all you get is water and the bottom, the grit has broken all the way down and there isn't any point continuing. clean the stones, figure out which ones are ready for the next batch and....if you have enough, go onto the next batch. otherwise, do another coarse grind with new rocks, and all the ones that weren't ready for the next step.
always have the tumbler 2/3 to 3/4 full of stones. have water come up just to the bottom of the top level of stones. also, keep to the same hardness range for all the stones. use diffrent size stones too. large, medium and small.
above all, be patient and HAVE FUN!!!
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drjo
fully equipped rock polisher
Honduran Opal & DIY Nut
Member since May 2008
Posts: 1,581
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Post by drjo on Jan 3, 2009 12:36:54 GMT -5
If you have another house on the property then you have two choices available... 1) Move me in and I'll watch the tumbler for you. ;D 2) Get a baby monitor Please feel free to post pix of the rocks / scenery / the horses / your husband's tractor / we'll look at anything Oh, it would have to be a summer job only as I'm allergic to cold weather (I breakout in chills / goose bumps and it's not a pretty sight) ;D Dr Joe . |
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ejs
spending too much on rocks
Member since July 2008
Posts: 478
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Post by ejs on Jan 3, 2009 14:13:11 GMT -5
Bonnie: as you discerned, when to move rocks on from one stage to the next is an important question without a definitive answer. I'm sure that every tumbler here can answer your question in a different way. I shall answer it in the way that suits me! I run cycles of rough for 5 days. I fill the barrel to 3/4 with rough rock, add water to just below the bottom of the top layer of rocks, then add 4 TB of 60/90 SC to a 3 lb. barrel (10 TB to a 6 lb.). I then run it for 5 days (sometimes more if I can't get to it on Day5 - I've run them for as long as 4 weeks when I was away). At the end of the cycle, I open the barrel, give everything a light rinse, and then inspect every rock. Personal preference really comes into play here. What do you want out of your rocks? Some people really like the "character" of the rock, with its peaks and valleys, and want a minimum of roundedness. I prefer my rocks to be very smooth and rounded at the end, like beach pebbles. At a minimum, you want to make sure that there are not large cracks or divots where grit can hide and be carried on to the next stage (which can ruin the whole batch). Beyond that, wait until the rocks are how you like them. As I said, I prefer mine to be really rounded, so I tend to run them for a very long time. Take any rocks that pass and put them in a jar. Add more rough rock to fill to 3/4 (and/or ceramic pellets or other small scrap material that helps with the grinding action) and repeat for another round. By my standards, I get the first rock ready for the next stage somewhere around round 3-5. If I have a big batch of rough to start, I might run up to 15 rounds total, pulling a little out each time (or not). Once I've accumulated enough rounded rock to fill a barrel to 3/4, I start a batch in medium (120/200 SC). This I run for just a single round of one week. I check all the rocks at the end to make sure they don't have any big holes, cracks, divots, etc. I then move them on to the other stages (10 days in 500, 10 days in 1000, and 14 days in polish). At the end of each stage, I inspect every rock to look for any new cracking or rough spots. If I see any, I put it back in the rough pile to start all over again. As I said, I'm probably more patient (that's a nice way to put it! "anal" would be another way! :-) than most people. Do what makes you happy! If you don't like the results, you can always start over. Tumbled rock, like pasta dough, is very forgiving and can always be brought back to the start. Good luck and have fun! |
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bouldergal
freely admits to licking rocks
Glacier Meadow
Member since July 2007
Posts: 783
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Post by bouldergal on Jan 3, 2009 16:24:59 GMT -5
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome!!!!!
You will always be grateful you found RTH! I've learned, shared, bought, traded, borrowed, and grown a thousand times in the process. I joined with an interest in rocks and rock hounding with my kids. It's the one hobby we enjoy together and they're now in their teens. Unfortunately there's not a lot of rock worth hounding in Florida, but we always incorporate it into our travels. Now that the price of gas has gone down we may be back on the road this summer. Please enjoy the camaraderie, share your questions, thoughts, photos, and experiences. We will all be thrilled to enjoy your input. Now.....about that tractor pulled rock? ;D
Susan2
I use the "2" since there's another "older Susan" on board.....Sorry, not "older".... just more experienced!!!!! ;D ;D ;D
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huffstuff
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since August 2007
Posts: 1,222
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Post by huffstuff on Jan 3, 2009 22:57:19 GMT -5
Welcome! I'm not sure I can add much else. Your rocks are ready for stage 2 when you like their shape, just as ejs said. I started this hobby with a single barrel 3-lb tumbler. I can give an example that I started one batch, took out rocks as they were ready, kept replacing and running until I had "enough" for the next stage of grit, then that smaller batch continued through to the end (still taking out a few when I noticed cracks or realized I really wanted more shaping), and I had a finish-polished batch in 12 weeks. But the rough took almost 8 weeks. It depends on the shape of the rocks when you first start them, the shape you want them to get to, their hardness (softer rocks will wear faster), etc. I have heard of the rough stage taking anywhere from 4-12 weeks. Sometimes other people's timing will be different than yours because they are running a larger tumbler. There is more action in a larger tumbler, so things happen a little faster. Anyway, I may have repeated some, but WELCOME! Amy I thought of something else... you can search the board for old topics. Keep in mind that the board was re-organized a little while ago and this "totally rock tumbling" section is relatively new. To search for older posts, or just more information on a topic, look/search in the "general" section, the first subsection ("general rock topics" I think). You'll be amazed what you find!  |
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Patience also kicks in somewhere around here too. Your first rough grind may not finish enough for a full load in the next sequence. I suggest using both barrels the fist time for rough and then sorting, and throwing the unfinished stones back in one barrel to continue rough grinding and clean the second barrel out completely and moving on to the next grade with it This way you can keep a rough grind always going. At a month or two per grit this seems to work pretty well.
