happieststoned
off to a rocking start
Member since January 2009
Posts: 4
|
Post by happieststoned on Jan 7, 2009 17:13:56 GMT -5
I am new at tumbling (not collecting) I have a rotary Thumbler. After unsuccessful attempts at speeding up the process (impatient) I have completed all 4 grit stages and the required (most of them 7 days) length of time and am very disappointed because my rocks are not shiny. (I even added sugar like I was told by someone else) Are there any way(s) to get this batch shiny or is this batch a lost cause? Any tips for future tumbling? How about tips for poliching rocks that I don't want to end up completely round, but want to clean/shine up but also keep in a more natural shape? Thanks!
|
|
fanatic
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since October 2007
Posts: 233
|
Post by fanatic on Jan 7, 2009 18:21:19 GMT -5
Welcome to the board!
With rotary tumblers theres no substitute for patience. Sorry. Some materials will shine after a 7 day per grit process, but in most cases you'll need more time particularly in stages 1 and 4. I started out EXACTLY the same way you did. I followed the instructions with the tumbler and wasn't satisfied. Then I found this forum and everything changed. I won't be the only response you'll get, but ALL the responses you get I'll guarantee will help you.
I tumble mostly pre-shaped pieces now, but I started with rough rocks and this method will work for most anything I've encountered. Theres always exceptions.
I tumble stage 1 for a minimum of 14 days. I sort out the rocks I'm happy with, and the rest go back in with more rough material and fresh grit for another 14 days. When I have enough I'm happy with for a load in stage 2 I proceed. Normally 7 days will be sufficient for stages 2 and 3, but I go 10 just to be sure. When I start the polishing stage I revert back to a 14 day minimum. Again, if I'm not "wowed" by the results I refresh the polish and start another 14 day cycle. To help with the decision I keep a "standard" to compare to. If they aren't as shiny as the standard they go back in.
I always use plastic pellets in both stage 3 and stage 4. I also use a burnish step after both of these stages. I keep the pellets from both stages separate to avoid contamination and the pellets see the burnish stage as well. My burnish consists of 3 tablespoons of 20 Mule team Borax and roughly a tablespoon of shavings from a bar of Ivory soap. Stage 3 8 hours will be fine. I burnish stage 4 for a full 48 hours. No doubt thats overkill, but thats just me.
My "standard" is a piece of Banded Amethyst that wasn't pre-shaped. Mirror finish on that one. Once I saw those results I went back and re-polished a lot of what I thought was done. Some rocks just plain won't get that shiny, but most will. Folks here will help you identify those rocks.
For grit I use 46/70, 120/220, 500, then AO from Rock Shed. I actually ordered the 46/70 by mistake but found it to work better than 60/90 in a 14 day tumble. Its more aggressive and doesn't break down as fast.
Make sure you have a mix of rock sizes in each load. Without a range of sizes you'll be unhappy with the results.
I've never used sugar or any other thickener.
Now I'll tell you how I cured the patience issue. I bought more tumblers! I started with a single 3 lb and added two double 3 lb units - 5 barrels running all the time. If you really want to speed things up consider getting a vibe for stages 2 through 4.
|
|
|
|
Post by Hard Rock Cafe on Jan 7, 2009 19:22:58 GMT -5
A vibratory tumbler will also allow you to polish rocks without much shaping.
I tumble for 5-7 days in 36/100 (ordered by mistake), then rinse and repeat. Depending on the hardness of the rocks, they may require a month in the coarse grind. I use a vibe for the remaining steps and only burnish after the polish.
We all eventually find our own variation that works with our patience and our schedule.
Chuck
|
|
|
|
Post by akansan on Jan 7, 2009 20:09:06 GMT -5
Rotary tumblers really need a minimum of 14 days in tumbling. They just are not fast tumblers. A happy medium people find is using a rotary for first stage shaping and then using a vibratory tumbler for the last 3 or four stages. Vibes just do not shape, but they do polish.
Sharp edges still remain after 1 week in coarse grind. The sharp edges will keep scratching the rocks through all the stages. So the first step in grinding is to remove all sharp edges. Once the rocks are shaped the way you want them, THEN move them on to the second stage, either in the rotary or in a vibe.
|
|
ejs
spending too much on rocks
Member since July 2008
Posts: 478
|
Post by ejs on Jan 7, 2009 20:39:29 GMT -5
Welcome to the board! As you've probably noticed, there are as many recipes for tumbling as their are tumblers. As others have said, one way to your desired end result is the buy a vibratory polisher. I chose the other route: patience. (Okay, okay, I also bought more tumblers - I have 7 barrels going now!) Here is my recipe: 1. Coarse stage in 60/90 SC grit. Run for five days. Separate out any rocks that are well shaped, put the rest back in with new rock to fill to 2/3-3/4, more grit (4 TB per 3 lb. barrel) and water to just under the top layer of rocks. Repeat the coarse stage for as many rounds as it takes to get enough rocks to be ready for the medium stage. For me, it's at least 5 rounds, sometimes as many as 15. But I like my rocks really rounded. I often add ceramic pellets to this stage. Make sure to fill the barrel 2/3-3/4 and to have a variety of rock sizes and/or fillers. 2. Medium stage: 7 days in 120/200 SC. I often add ceramic pellets at this stage. At the end, check for any rocks that have pits/cracks/crevices and send those back to step 1. Send the rest on. 3. Pre-polish: I run 10 days in 500 SC and then 10 days in 1000 AO. You could get away with either/or of those. I always run with a good handful of plastic pellets. I rinse with Borax after each stage. 4. Polish: 14 days in AO polish (or cerium oxide for jasper/agate) with plenty of pellets. And then a few hours rinse in Borax. I've had excellent results with this combination of patience plus rotaries:  General tips: Rinse the rocks and barrel extremely well when moving on to the next stage. Keep plastic pellets with their stage. It helps to have separate barrels for each stage, but if you don't want to do that, rinse the barrel really well and scrub the creases with a toothbrush before using it in the next stage. The good news is that you have not ruined your rocks! You can't! They're rocks! You can always send them back and start over. They are very forgiving. And keep in mind that some rocks (picture jasper and sodalite, for example) are almost impossible to get to shine, they end up with a matte finish only. Have fun, post pictures, ask more questions, and good luck! |
|
happieststoned
off to a rocking start
Member since January 2009
Posts: 4
|
Post by happieststoned on Jan 7, 2009 20:55:06 GMT -5
Please keep in mind that I am new at tumbling when I ask this...What does AO and SC stand for? Also interesting comment about the jasper as I have quite a few 'lakers' I have found and havent done anything with them as of yet. Id probably not get good results tumbling them then. I did get a Dremel from a friend and I am thinking that might be the way to go with those. I'd appreciate any other tips you can offer. Thanks!
|
|
ejs
spending too much on rocks
Member since July 2008
Posts: 478
|
Post by ejs on Jan 7, 2009 23:23:55 GMT -5
Sorry to not define my terms: SC = silicon carbide, the standard material for rough grit. AO = aluminum oxide, one of several standard materials for polishing (and sometimes pre-polishing). Some people prefer other types of polish, such as CO (cerium oxide) and TO (tin oxide).
|
|
|
|
Post by NatureNut on Jan 8, 2009 7:59:14 GMT -5
I just got an awesome box of Lakers from Northshorerocks and I just asked BikerRandy that very same question. Looks like you can cut some of the bigger lakers in half or into slabs to expose the bands and tumble... and you can tumble the smaller ones as is. Apparently, they are hard enough to tumble well and take a great shine! Perhaps someone with more experience with them can give us both some pointers. *smiles* Jo
|
|
|
|
Post by akansan on Jan 8, 2009 12:11:21 GMT -5
|
|
docharber
has rocks in the head
Member since October 2008
Posts: 716
|
Post by docharber on Jan 8, 2009 13:38:06 GMT -5
I'm a newbie too, and since everyone is entitled to my opinions here they are. I nthink you'll find it worth your time to check out some of the old posts. I can only say ditto to the above advice. I use a rotary for first gringd and a vibe after the first or second grind. The pellets they mention are polypropylene or polystyrene peellets used to stuff tooys or as tumbling filler. Get them on eBay. I am finding the little sshards and tiny stones I make the best filler. Softer stones should not be tumbled with hard ones, as they will break or chip or scratch. pellets help cushion them but the tiny smooth stones I have used seem to give a faster and better polish. The pellets will float and are easy to separate when you're through. I would add something else- some stones soimply will NOT polish. The grainy stuff will undercut and disintegrate on you and you're best off not wasting time and grit on them. obvious fractures will chip out during tumbling and leave jagged edges you will never be able to remove. I just whack them with a hammer and finish the job before I put them in. I will sometimes just use a fine diamond file to smooth the edges of the fracture and let it go at that if the fracture doesn't seem to oblique to the surface or if it doesn't threaten the integrity of the piece. Pits can add interest but smoothing them by hand and careful washing will avoid carrying over coarser grit. Don't bother if there are deep fissures- you can't prep them well enough. Water worn rocks may go directly to step 2 if you want. Overall, I recycle at ;least 20-30% of the stones I tumble back to the prior or even earlier stages if they have chipped or broken during tumbling. I have found minor blemishes can be ground out with a diamond hone (see Harbor Freight or Grizzly)) to save time if the problem areas are small.
There is a glossary on this site that may be helpful to you. I have found the vendors here a pleasure to deal with, and they are prompt and generous. There are also some great posts of equipment comparisons, maintenance, and build-your-own advice. This is more than a tumbling forum, as you have already doubtless noticed, and there are real experts in every area of lapidary work here. Welcome and good luck to you.
Mark H.
|
|
chassroc
Cave Dweller 
Rocks are abundant when you have rocktumblinghobby pals
Member since January 2005
Posts: 3,586
|
Post by chassroc on Jan 8, 2009 13:39:19 GMT -5
One thing you can do is to make it seem like the process is progressing quickly by using more tumblers. The rough grind stage is the most important and takes considerable time. Keep a barrel(preferably a large barrel) performing the coarse grind at all times. Every week remove the rocks that are smooth and finish in smaller batches, either rotary or Vibe. Replace with more rough, repeat. So maybe a 12pound barrel for rough tumbling and 3pound barrels for other stages.
Another help is to grind out hollow spots and pits in your rocks. Cutting instead of smashing rocks helps too. Quality rough works wonders.
csroc
I am new at tumbling (not collecting) I have a rotary Thumbler. After unsuccessful attempts at speeding up the process (impatient) I have completed all 4 grit stages and the required (most of them 7 days) length of time and am very disappointed because my rocks are not shiny. (I even added sugar like I was told by someone else) Are there any way(s) to get this batch shiny or is this batch a lost cause? Any tips for future tumbling? How about tips for poliching rocks that I don't want to end up completely round, but want to clean/shine up but also keep in a more natural shape? Thanks!
|
|
ejs
spending too much on rocks
Member since July 2008
Posts: 478
|
Post by ejs on Jan 8, 2009 13:55:41 GMT -5
naturenut: can you post a link for rough lakers from North Shore Rocks? I found their website, but they do not list them. Thanks!
|
|
NorthShore-Rocks
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since December 2008
Posts: 1,004
|
Post by NorthShore-Rocks on Jan 8, 2009 14:09:20 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by NatureNut on Jan 8, 2009 17:45:10 GMT -5
LOL. Thanks NSR. We just swapped some of our local stuff and I'm getting ready to tumble some lakers.
|
|
ejs
spending too much on rocks
Member since July 2008
Posts: 478
|
Post by ejs on Jan 8, 2009 18:02:58 GMT -5
Well, duh on me!  I have been following that thread and can't wait to see how the lakers come out. My 6 lbs. Lortone barrels are generally done with a rough tumble after 5 days. Open it up, let it sit for a moment, and then check for unground grit at the bottom of the barrel. If there is a bunch of sandy stuff in there, let it go for another day or two. But I think you'll find its all been worn away, and there is only muddy/silty water left. In which case you should rinse, recharge, and run for another round...repeat...repeat...!!! |
|
Rogue Trader
freely admits to licking rocks
"Don't cry because you are leaving, smile because you were there."
Member since December 2008
Posts: 839
|
Post by Rogue Trader on Jan 11, 2009 8:42:35 GMT -5
For what its worth, my method is very similar to all the other above. Because I spend much of my working time away from home I don't do anything less than 7 day periods. Plus its easier to work out when things need changing/checking  All my checking/changing is done on either a saturday or a Sunday. 1st stage. 60/80 SC grit in a fully charged barrel. Leave 14 days. Check and re-charge grit. Leave 14 days. Check, wash stones, examine. I'm looking to see how well rounded they are, if there are any deep pits or cracks. If there are more than 70% of the stones needing to go back into rough grit then I always return the whole batch.  Tumble for a further 14 days. Re-check, by this time there should be enough to remove. Then I recharge the grit and top up the stones. Again, everything runs for 14 days. Again, if more than 70% need to go back then the whole lot does. Very few of my finished stones (I'd say less than 3%) have any signs of pitting whatsoever. 2nd Stage. 220 SC grit. Charge barrel and set away - 14 days. Check, wash, examine. If I'm not happy at this point the whole lot go back into a recharged barrel for a further 14 days. If after this point I find any that have any deep pits appear they get chisled in half at the point of the pit and returned back to stage 1. Wash completely in soda crystals/water mix. Minimum 6 hours. Move on to next stage. Stage 3. 400 SC grit. (I've never used pellets at this stage so can't comment on them   .) Again, run for 14 days. Check, wash, examine. In my experiance, I've never had to return any from this stage, and have moved on to the polish stage. Wash completely in soda crystals/water mix, minimum 6 hours. Move on to polish stage. Polish Stage. Cerium Oxide. Charge barrel. Add plastic pellets to help cushion tumbling action. Tumble for 14 days. After 14 days the rocks are nice and polished. Burnish for 10 - 12 hours. Job Done. I must add tho, that after polishing I have sometimes re-examined stones and found some of them have hot spots / higher polished areas. If this is the case then I will put them back into the polish stage will less plastic pebbels than the first time round. If hot spots show then obviously the whole stones can be polished to the same high gloss. As an afternote, my CO mix is the same mix I started off over a year ago. CO / polish mix is the only one you do not need to throw away, it can be used over and over again. I'm in no rush to get the stones finished. What I complete in 10, 12, 14, 16 weeks is doin it a lot faster and a lot shinier than what natue can do anyway. |
|
That being said, some picture jaspers take a terrific shine. The picture jaspers from the Owyhee range are much harder than the picture jaspers from the McDermitt/Disaster Peak area. But even then, some of the owyhees still quite hard enough to polish...and some definitely are.
I have been following that thread and can't wait to see how the lakers come out.
Tumble for a further 14 days. Re-check, by this time there should be enough to remove. Then I recharge the grit and top up the stones. Again, everything runs for 14 days. Again, if more than 70% need to go back then the whole lot does. 
.) Again, run for 14 days. Check, wash, examine. In my experiance, I've never had to return any from this stage, and have moved on to the polish stage. Wash completely in soda crystals/water mix, minimum 6 hours. Move on to polish stage.
