shana
off to a rocking start
Member since July 2013
Posts: 4 
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Post by shana on Aug 1, 2013 7:00:36 GMT -5
You do want to have as perfectly smooth as possible before you get the vibe involved. You can either use a rotary tumbler or a grinder to do this (or you can find stones that are perfectly smooth but that is far easier said than done) Ah, thank you. I did not realize that my vibe wouldn't get out minor dings and ridges. I had split my Beach rocks into 2 piles. One Pike contains really smooth rocks and the other has a few flaws. I decided to do my first ever tumbling run on the not so great ones so that I would know what I'm doing better for the nicer ones. Maybe this want such a great idea. I'll post pictures when they are done. |
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Post by connrock on Aug 1, 2013 9:25:02 GMT -5
Hi Shana,,,
I don't think it's been mentioned before or at least I haven' seen it but,,,,,
In most cases beach rocks look pretty at the beach and in most cases they are wet too!
When you get them home they look a lot different dry and have a sort of "frosty dull" look to them.
This is because most beach rocks are too soft to get a high glossy shine and a LOT of people have problems with this and get discouraged.Come to find out it's not the process of polishing that went wrong,,,it's just the softness of most beach rocks!
A vibe will eat up softer rocks pretty fast and create a thick slurry(water/grit/ground down rock) so the vibe will take a lot more tending to then it would doing harder rocks and need to be cleaned more often.
Something you might try to help your clean-ups a little is to put a LITTLE soap and water into the barrel about 15-30 minutes before you are ready to rinse the load.This will give your rocks a bit of a head start in cleaning them and also help to scrub the barrel for you.
Something to remember is that vibe tumblers take VERY small "adjustments" when adding water so go easy with this and only use a spray bottle with little squirts,,,,wait add more water if needed,,,,wait,,,,let things "happen" inside the barrel and watch as they occur.Do the rocks slow down?Do the rocks churn around the barrel?Is the grit sticking to the rocks?Is is falling off and going to the bottom of the barrel?
Listen to the different sounds too!That tumbler is "talking" allllll the time and after you learn it's "language" you won't even have to open it to know what's happening inside!
Something about clean-ups between different grit sizes,,,,
In most cases the grit will break down in 1/2 in about 12 hours in a vibe unit.
This means that if you are using 220 grit it will break down to 440 grit in about 12 hours or so.
Usually the barrel itself doesn't hold any of the grit you started the load off with but the holes,cracks and other flaws in the rocks do.
That being said,,,,,,99.999% of all flaws should be gone before you use the vibe to continue the polishing process.
I know you probably don't want to hear this but as "herchenx" already mentioned,,the flaws in rough rocks are either run through a rotary tumbler or hand ground before they go into the vibe!
I AM NOT saying that rocks can't be roughed in a vibe but those that are roughed in a vibe will not be as rounded as those that are run through rotary or hand ground first.
Something I like to do when using my vibe units is that when I'm just starting a load(in any grit and or polish stage) I add about a teaspoon of powdered laundry soap,,,I use Dreft.A little more or less won't hurt but the idea is to get the soap into any flaws in the rocks before the grit and slurry has a chance to.Once that grit and slurry gets into flaws it becomes very hard to wash it out.Having soap in the flaws first helps washing the rocks.
I may be confusing you a little here by first saying that all flaws should be gone before continuing in a vibe and to the final polish stage and then saying I use soap in first even during the polishing.
Well,,,,,some of the rocks we tumble are charismatically flawed with cracks and fractures running right through them.Some of the rocks in the quartz family,,rose and clear are only 2,,,,hold true to this but we want to polish them any way.
By adding soap first helps to keep muck out of all of those flaws so when the rocks are finally polished you won't see that terrible slurry and polish stuck in them.
I could keep writing here but we'll leave it where it is for now!
Good luck and have fun,,,,,it's ONLY the beginning!
connrcok
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bruceb
off to a rocking start
Member since August 2013
Posts: 20 
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Post by bruceb on Aug 1, 2013 12:32:13 GMT -5
New Ultravibe 10 user here. I have been working some tumbled rocks and preshaped slabs in my vib. (first time running one) Been reading all the recipes for getting a good shine but have not bought many supplies. I had some tubs of grit and polish from another tumbler I bought. I used the 220 then prepolish then Cerium and the rocks only had minimum shine on the edges this was after 3 days 220 with one reload after 1.5 days, a couple of days with prepolish then 2 days with polish after i found no shine i added some titanium dioxide and still after a day found no improvement. Im wondering about this prepolish, its white but more like a gray white and Im just not sure how the rocks should look after then come out of the prepolish? What kind of shine if any should they have? I restarted the whole load with 220 for a day and now its been 24 hours of prepolish. I took a few stones and slabe of missouri lace agate out and only in tiny areas can I see some start of a shine the rest is just a matte finish. Im real careful between loads but at this point do not have a seperate polishing bowl. I use magic erase pads to clean the bowl and I have a steam cleaner I use to go around the edges of the cabs and rocks to steam blast out any possible grit. Takes about an hour to do this and Im thinking I should be able to see some kind of shine starting? After the polishing cycle last time, the stones only had a bit of shine, like you could see the reflection of the outline of your head in them, but it was a blur and not like a mirror. Any ideas? Oh and Hi this is my first post. Im about an hour away from Keokuk Iowa so you know I got me some geodes! Bruce
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grizman
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since July 2011
Posts: 878
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Post by grizman on Aug 1, 2013 15:39:43 GMT -5
bgast1,
You do not want the bottom of your bowl (part with the round cylinder of rubber) to touch the frame of the vibe. Mine is usually about an inch above the frame. Also, like Bikerrandy says, excessive water in the bowl will not let the rocks rotate from top to bottom. Start out the bowl with just enough moisture to cover the rocks. Before you add your grit, turn it upside down, and let the excess water drain out of the bowl. Remember, you can always add a squirt or two if it seems t be too dry. It is dang hard to take a "squirt" out though!
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herchenx
Cave Dweller 
Member since January 2012
Posts: 3,360
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Post by herchenx on Aug 1, 2013 17:38:13 GMT -5
Bruce, first off, welcome! There is a lot going on here, let me see if I can help break it down. I used the 220 then prepolish then Cerium and the rocks only had minimum shine on the edges this was after 3 days 220 with one reload after 1.5 days, a couple of days with prepolish then 2 days with polish after i found no shine i added some titanium dioxide and still after a day found no improvement Backing up a little, your rocks must already be smooth-tumbled or ground from a wheel. If they are coarse going into the vibe they won't ever smooth out. "No pits or cracks" is the rule before you start 120/220 - pits and cracks carry grit forward and will keep your batch from ever polishing. THAT SAID, assuming your material is already smooth, and pit- and crack-free let's talk about what else is going on. I go 2 full days with 120/220 then rinse and go 2 full more days. After a burnish or at least a very good rinse, I go at least 2 days in 500, and at that point the rocks are shiny (but not SUPER shiny) If your rocks aren't pretty shiny after 500, you probably aren't going to be happy with whatever the polish does. Polish takes "pretty shiny" to "glowing" - if they are matte finished polish probably is just a waste of time. If your edges are all that is shiny that probably means you have a bunch of large stuff and no small stuff. The grit has to constantly be touching as many surfaces at once as possible. If all you have is all large-ish, similar sized stuff you won't be able to get the sides all touching at once. I fill my bowl at least 30% with small ceramic media, which ensures that there is enough surface-to-surface contact to work the grit over all the large surfaces in the bowl. I hope this helps! |
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bruceb
off to a rocking start
Member since August 2013
Posts: 20
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Post by bruceb on Aug 1, 2013 18:55:28 GMT -5
Thanks John,
I just wonder what the prepolish (grayish white powder) is and if that might be the culprit. The grits (2 lbs each) were in plastic deli tubs in a box with a 2 barrel Lortone tumbler for 20 bucks at a fleamarket so i cant gripe too much. Grits came from a shop in StLouis according to the label. Ya, I dont get any shine after the prepolish and was expecting something more than matte finish. I have a 4 station unit with 2- 8 inch wheels, expanding drum and leather end which I use to grind and polish so I know what the rocks look like when i use that but this vibe thing is new to me. 24 inch rock saw, 8 inch trim saw so Im pretty well armed, I just have to get it all figured out as to what combination of those items I can use to get the best end results. I burnished twice between each grit using borax which I had 2 boxes of in the basement for some reason. I didnt have any media to put in the load with the rocks but I had a nice batch of already tumbled that I got from an old timer when I was a kid (he tumbled 5 gallons at a time) and he didnt like the shine so I got the batch. There are all sizes there so Im sure the grit is getting to all areas of the cabs and freeforms. Largest might be 3 by 3 and a quarter inch thick slab.
Ill keep this load running a few more days on prepolish and see if there is any change, if not Im going to assume its the prepolish and work from there.
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herchenx
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2012
Posts: 3,360
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Post by herchenx on Aug 1, 2013 19:00:50 GMT -5
Maybe you just need to run a 500 or 600 in place of the prepolish
In the vibe the grit halves its coarseness every day.
I don't know what grit the prepolish is but if it is 1000 it may be too high to bridge the 220 and the polish.
Sent from my phone.
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bruceb
off to a rocking start
Member since August 2013
Posts: 20
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Post by bruceb on Aug 1, 2013 19:13:51 GMT -5
I think you might be right, the prepolish looks very fine to me. Pretty close to the Titanium Dioxide IMO.
Its kind of funny... I carve candles for a living and purchase titanium dioxide in 50 pound bags to use as my white pigment for wax. I never knew I could use it for polishing rocks until I started looking at grits from suppliers. LOL
Thanks again!
Bruce
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The Dad_Ohs
fully equipped rock polisher
Take me to your Labradorite!!
Member since September 2012
Posts: 1,860
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Post by The Dad_Ohs on Aug 12, 2013 20:55:50 GMT -5
I believe these are Randy's Original Vibe Instructions..... I saved a copy of them when I began using a vibe tumbler and have a copy of this posted next to my vibe tumbler in case I need a quick review or have a question. The only deviation from this, for me, is that I have a Expando unit w/40 grit paper so I smooth the really rough stuff before running it to remove voids, cracks.. etc. Anyways... Here it is, I hope it helps..... The following are only general guidelines for polishing rocks as most people make modifications in the methods to fit their specific needs. 1. Fill Industrial Ultra-Vibe barrel with enough rocks to fill up past the centerline - approximately 3/4 full. Tighten wing nut in center of barrel securely. 2. Add GRIT (Check chart below for quantity needed for the various size vibratory barrels.) Turn on Tumbler. 3. Begin adding water, a little at a time until the grit starts to cling to the stones which is what sit should do. (Too much water will tend to rinse the grit back off the stones.) 4. Replace tumbler lid to prevent the water from splashing and evaporating. This will also reduce some of the noise connected with rock polishing. 5. The GRIND (120-220 grit) will be the longest and will vary with the roughness and hardness of the stones - from 2 to 7 days. The rocks should be checked two to three times daily because the build-up of "mud" (ground up rock, grit and water) will cause the action in the tumbler to slow down. A small amount of water may be added to restore the action. This is critical because if the action stops significantly, the barrel could be damaged. 6. When desired results in the GRIND (120-220 grit) are attained, the rocks and barrel should be rinsed thoroughly. DO NOT wash grit into sink or drain pipe. Make sure all traces of FINE grit are rinsed from the rocks and barrel. The rocks can then be replaced in the barrel, ready for the next phase of polishing. 7. Follow Steps 2 - 6 for each of the next two phases - PREPOLISH, and finally, POLISH. Use chart below for correct amount of grit for each barrel. These grinds will take only 2 - 3 days each. The stones and barrel should be washed thoroughly between grit changes. 8. After the POLISH you may wish to run the stones for a few hours in a solution of laundry detergent and enough water to make stiff suds. This will clean off any remaining polish and do a final burnishing job on the stones. UV-10 IND GRIND (120/220 grit)_______________6 oz PREPOLISH (500F)_________3 oz POLISH_____________3 oz UV-18 IND GRIND (120/220 grit)_______________8 oz PREPOLISH (500F)_________4 oz POLISH_____________4 oz And Remember This........... ALWAYS POST PICS WITH YOUR QUESTIONS IF POSSIBLE!!!! It is usually easier to understand what you are talking about if we can see it!!!  |
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The Dad_Ohs
fully equipped rock polisher
Take me to your Labradorite!!
Member since September 2012
Posts: 1,860
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Post by The Dad_Ohs on Aug 12, 2013 20:59:00 GMT -5
most pre-polish I use are 1000 grit AO. If that is what you are using after 220... then John is right .... you are making too big of a jump from 220 to 1000.... I use a 600 grit in between the 220 & pre-polish and then use polish afterwards... also AO (Alum Oxide). Hope this helps!  |
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bruceb
off to a rocking start
Member since August 2013
Posts: 20
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Post by bruceb on Aug 12, 2013 22:28:35 GMT -5
Yes, I think the prepolish was too fine and had to be up close to 1000 grit. Tonight I finished that batch for the second time. Ended up polishing for 4 and a half days. The finish on the regular tumbled rocks was great. The slabs that I had broken into cab sized pieces didnt fair as well. Missouri lace agate and Clear quartz cabs didnt come out so good. I didnt know if it would help but I took them to an 8 inch expanding drum with 50K diamond on it and they turned out good. Maybe not as nice as the others but huge improvement over what I had. Burnished for 3 hours after the UV10 polish too fyi. Seemed like a few pieces lost a bit of shine with the burnishing which I thought strange from all I have read. Had some rainbow obsidian in this batch just to play around with... and that was before I read about the extra steps needed for it to take a good shine. The TD seemed to turn it blue and Im guessing thats because of the jump in grits left it too porous and the white TD turned it blue. Looked better after burnishing stage as far as color but no shine at all on the obsidian which is ok, Ill put it in my next batch. I found some 600 grit and it might just be enough to get one batch done. Bruce
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The Dad_Ohs
fully equipped rock polisher
Take me to your Labradorite!!
Member since September 2012
Posts: 1,860
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Post by The Dad_Ohs on Aug 12, 2013 22:39:03 GMT -5
sounds like you are mixing your hardness too... that can cause some problems as Obsidian, basically volcanic glass, is softer than agate and agate will scratch the softer stones more readily during tumbling... even in a vibe, I know some people who have no problems mixing hardness of stones, unfortunately I am not one of those people!! LOL
slabs definitely require media, ie; ceramic pellets, to help with the grinding polishing of slabs because it helps keep them from sticking together during the tumbling which keeps grit from touching the stone except along the edges.
I have a batch of glass marbles I use when tumbling, mainly because I got them cheap, and as they get smaller from tumbling they work better. when they get small enough I use the in some of the pieces I make, cages and such. but anyways.. make sure you have media and 500-600 grit and you should be ok!!
POST PICS TOO !!!!!!!
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daisyd681
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2011
Posts: 104
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Post by daisyd681 on Feb 7, 2014 16:32:01 GMT -5
I have been tumbling on and off for a couple of years now in a Lortone 3lb. I like it, but it takes FOREVER! I found a Raytech MicroVibe at Thunderbird for $100 and told DH about it. He said "Happy Valentine's Day! Order it up." I've been doing wire wrapped jewelry for a while now, but just recently got into actual smithing, so I'm wanting to do freeform cabs that I can set. I have a 4" tile saw that I got on the cheap from Home Depot that has been pretty good for slicing. My question is do I need to do something to the edges of the slices before they go in the vibe? The vibe will round them some right? I suppose I could put them in the tumbler, but I was really hoping to let that be dedicated to the rocks the kids pick up (It's an illness that is clearly contagious. My porch is covered in rocks from our last camping trip. Even the dog dug up a rock for he liked.). Also, how thick should I slice? I've been doing 1/2" slices that tumble down to around 1/4". I was really excited about not having to wait on the rotary anymore, but after reading this thread, it seems that I'm not out of it yet... |
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The Dad_Ohs
fully equipped rock polisher
Take me to your Labradorite!!
Member since September 2012
Posts: 1,860
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Post by The Dad_Ohs on Feb 7, 2014 21:39:04 GMT -5
I would do 1/4 inch slices, and the vibe tumbler will keep the basic shape while leaving everything nicely rounded along the edges.
you will lose very little thickness with a vibe tumbler.
Make sure you read the stickies on how to use a vibe tumbler as the course grit used in a rolling tumbler is not used in a vibe or it will destroy the vibes bowl.
Some people like to use the rolling tumbler for course and the vibe to finish, but I only do that with stones that will go into jars, not slabbed material. all my slabbed pieces go into the vibe tumbler, unless I am going to cab them, which is another process all together.
where your rolling tumbler goes something like this; 60, 120, 220, 600, 1000 pre-polish, polish. and would take weeks to complete, a vibe tumbler is more like this; 120/220, 600, 1000 pre-polish, polish, and would be done in a week maybe 2 at most.
I run most of what I do in my vibe in 1 week to 10 days, get a really nice shine to everything too, but I am not doing high end stuff either.
hope this helps.
Mario
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daisyd681
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2011
Posts: 104
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Post by daisyd681 on Feb 9, 2014 11:21:57 GMT -5
Thanks Mario! That does help.  Now it just needs to get warm enough to cut up all these rocks. |
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The Dad_Ohs
fully equipped rock polisher
Take me to your Labradorite!!
Member since September 2012
Posts: 1,860
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Post by The Dad_Ohs on Feb 9, 2014 22:33:39 GMT -5
it was 70+ degrees today!! plenty warm to cut rocks !!!
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daisyd681
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2011
Posts: 104
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Post by daisyd681 on Feb 9, 2014 23:18:47 GMT -5
Okay, I read through the whole thread again and here's my plan. Please let me know if I've gone off track anywhere.
The vibe I have coming is 4lb capacity. I think I have the amounts of grit right based on Randy saying he uses 3 TBS 220 in his 10lb.
Add rock and ceramic media to 3/4 full in bowl
Add 2 TBS 120/220 grit
Turn on vibe and squirt water until the rocks turn grey and are moving down the inside and up the outside well.
Leave for 2 days checking regularly (how often really?)
Add a squirt of dish soap and water to 1" from top for 30 min
Rinse well and check to see they don't need to go back into the 220
Put rock and media back into same bowl
Add 1 TBS? 500 grit(This seems like a very small amount. Maybe just sticking with 2 TBS all the way through?)
Turn on vibe and add water until it moves properly and is coated
2 days in 500
Squirt of dish soap and water again for 30 min
Rinse
Back into same bowl with 2 TBS Borax (How long should this go?)
Rinse, rinse, rinse
Place stones and media (Do the same ceramic cylinders go through the whole process, or are they separate like the bowls?) in polish bowl.
1 TBS (or 2) AO polish (I think that's the one I have...) and add water as before.
5-6 days in the polish
Dish soap rinse?
Rinse
2 TBS borax and add water as with grit for a few hours
Did I miss anything? The big questions I still have are how much grit do I really need? And can the same pellets follow the rocks through the whole process?
I would not be able to do any of the stone or jewelry things that I do without the help of all of you good folks on here. I keep telling DH "Rock people are good people". <3
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daisyd681
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2011
Posts: 104
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Post by daisyd681 on Feb 9, 2014 23:22:25 GMT -5
it was 70+ degrees today!! plenty warm to cut rocks !!! I'm in the mountains of Az. It was in the 50s today. It's supposed to warm up this week though, and DH drug a freestanding shelf thing out of the shed so I can set up the saw in the back yard. The last time I stained the front deck with rock sludge.  |
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Feb 10, 2014 8:14:55 GMT -5
Okay, I read through the whole thread again and here's my plan. Please let me know if I've gone off track anywhere. The vibe I have coming is 4lb capacity. I think I have the amounts of grit right based on Randy saying he uses 3 TBS 220 in his 10lb. Add rock and ceramic media to 3/4 full in bowl Add 2 TBS 120/220 grit Turn on vibe and squirt water until the rocks turn grey and are moving down the inside and up the outside well. Leave for 2 days checking regularly (how often really?) Add a squirt of dish soap and water to 1" from top for 30 min Rinse well and check to see they don't need to go back into the 220 Put rock and media back into same bowl Add 1 TBS? 500 grit(This seems like a very small amount. Maybe just sticking with 2 TBS all the way through?) Turn on vibe and add water until it moves properly and is coated 2 days in 500 Squirt of dish soap and water again for 30 min Rinse Back into same bowl with 2 TBS Borax (How long should this go?) Rinse, rinse, rinse Place stones and media (Do the same ceramic cylinders go through the whole process, or are they separate like the bowls?) in polish bowl. 1 TBS (or 2) AO polish (I think that's the one I have...) and add water as before. 5-6 days in the polish Dish soap rinse? Rinse 2 TBS borax and add water as with grit for a few hours Did I miss anything? The big questions I still have are how much grit do I really need? And can the same pellets follow the rocks through the whole process? I would not be able to do any of the stone or jewelry things that I do without the help of all of you good folks on here. I keep telling DH "Rock people are good people". <3 What brand of vibe tumbler did you purchase? the 4 pound capacity sounds like a lot-o tumbler. I have processed around 60 batches of rock through my 4 pound loto and pretty much stick to these times and amounts of grit. 1) fill the bowl to 3/4 full (minimum) fill with water then hold your hand over the opening and pour the water out. This will leave the correct amount of water to get things started. Add 2 tablespoons of 120/220 and run for 2 days checking frequently the first 12-20 hours to spray with water as the slurry builds up. at the end of this step I squirt a little liquid soap in and add about a half a cup of water for about 10 minutes before I turn it off to clean it out. 2) fill the bowl to 3/4 full (minimum) fill with water then hold your hand over the opening and pour the water out. This will leave the correct amount of water to get things started. Add 1/2 teaspoon of 500/600 grit and run for 2-3 days checking frequently the first 12 hours to spray with water as the slurry builds up. At the end of this step I rinse off my rocks then put them back in with 2 tablespoons of borax and enough water for good action and run for about an hour to clean them up. 3) fill the bowl to 3/4 full (minimum) fill with water then hold your hand over the opening and pour the water out. This will leave the correct amount of water to get things started. Add 1/2 teaspoon of A/0 polish and run for 2-3 days checking frequently the first 12 hours to spray with water as the slurry builds up. At the end of this step I rinse off my rocks then put them back in with 2 tablespoons of borax and enough water for good action and run for about an hour to clean them up. You can add a step between 2 and 3 by going for a couple days with 1/2 teaspoon of 1000 grit pre-polish but for most rocks I have not seen much difference with or without. Yes you can move the ceramics from stage to stage with your rocks. Here's a current post of one of my lot-o 4 pound batches using this exact method. forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/63626/updated-photos-mixed-batch-14Chuck |
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daisyd681
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2011
Posts: 104
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Post by daisyd681 on Feb 10, 2014 8:38:57 GMT -5
Thank you Chuck! That was exactly what I was looking for! Mine is a raytech, but it should be about the same as far as amounts go. I'm going to print out your instructions to keep with the machine. I'll be happy if I get anywhere near your results. |
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Now it just needs to get warm enough to cut up all these rocks.
