Post by elementary on Aug 20, 2012 2:55:02 GMT -5
Helen,
Love your comments and questions.
Please see below responses - and if I ramble or lose my thoughts, I apologize. I'm tired...I'll write why at the bottom of my post....
Well, some people LIKE hardcopies:)... not the least of which the photography detail:).
Now don't get me wrong. I love real live hardcover/softcover books. I got myself a storage unit with 3,000 of the suckers packed away (they used to be here at home but my daughter's bedroom knocked out my personal library....(heavy sigh) I love the way old books smell, and I love the new colorful books coming out in the agate field recently.
Nor will I argue the details of photography. Transferring the indexes to PDF files lowers the photo quality, though I've been finding ways to better reprint photos.
Besides, as stated in the book - you can print the indexes yourself. You just can't print copies and then sell them. My agreements when I ask for permission to use images, is strictly for a free share index. You can print and/or digitally copy it as much as you want. It just can't be sold. Why? All image copyrights still belong to the individual contributor. I never asked for or received permission to use the images beyond their current free use. I probably would have to go back and ask for permission to put them on an Agate/Index facebook page if I ever go that direction. Do I think they'll (the contributors) will say 'no'. Probably not, but I've had more than on person specify that I have permission for reprint rights solely in this format.
But since you're doing an ebook ANYWAY... adding the text wouldn't be such a big deal, and then you can shop an editor?? Or is the fact that it's been an ebook mean no editor would be interested? (I read that somewhere a while ago, but not sure if it's true).
The Index is meant to be just an index, an identification guide, not a Gem Trail or Journal. Though maps and stories would be great, that is beyond the boundary of this series - though not beyond the scope of what I want to do. Though I plan on adding pictures of collecting sites in a later edition.
I have a collecting book 1/2way done for the Wiley Well Region that is illustrated and filled with stories of the location - both history and personal. I think this is more of what you were talking about. The index, though, will remain pictures and ID's at present.
So it's really not about an editor, it's about the strictest goal of this series set down by myself and a few other people several years ago. It's a guide to quartz materials in the USA.
Would it be great to see a book highlighting personal collections? That would be great! Love it! Would I buy it? Hell yes. Am I going to do it - in a way I already have skeletal versions. I've done four Artists of Agates portfolios (2 Dan Heuer, 1 Bob Rush, 1 Steve Haynes, and I am working on another one for Stones in Motion - Ed, got permission from him a few months ago to start work on showing off his work.)
I'm not saying your idea shouldn't be done as a colorful hardcover (see Ron Gibbs Agates and Jaspers book - it's a great example of how publishing is being done these days), nor am I saying I wouldn't want to be involved in putting it together. My comments last time were primarily directed as to why ebook publishing was better (for me) than print on demand or similar methods - small specialty publisher.) For me - that list of items keeps me from taking these indexes beyond the electronic form. If someone else wanted to tackle them for their project - go for it!
That guy Hans Gamma published a book... and I'm holding it in my hand, and I think most of us bought one?? There's nothing but pix... and they're mostly the same pix on his website. At most there's maybe 5 paragraphs of text.
I love love his series, and it's filled with pages upon pages of photos that show specimens from across the world, and you are using a bit of hyperbole when you say there are maybe 5 paragraphs. There is actually a great deal of writing in that series. (By the way, I have a standing offer of $500 for a copy of Agates I, if anyone is a little cash poor....why? Because Johann Zenz says he's not reprinting the first book again because it is too expensive. I don't know if he's going to crack from pressure from those without that book, but he's so far holding firm on no reprints....)
Would I pay $28 again for it? Yes. Because the PICTURES are accurate, not subject to monitors, and I can lay in bed surrounded with crumbs (not really), drinking milk and reading it:P. Getting milk and crumbs all over my keyboard is not ok.
Not going to argue with being sprawled out in bed with a book over a tablet, but reprinting is a different story - if only 30% of the Agate Index is new - then it's worth my revising and re-releasing it for free...but if I charge $30, is it going to be worth that to everyone who is interested in it? Again, this is a information distribution project - get the info to as many people as possible for their personal use. If I charge $30 another bucks for 30% new content, I'm not going to have as many people get the updated version, and many who do will think that I am gouging them for money....So, free book with free distribution get more people to acquire it than hard copy with a price tag.
Now, your story based idea (which I do love - don't get me wrong) is a different beast....A single shot (or limited series of books) showcasing personal stories and collections is more in line IMHO with a more traditional publishing venue, but whoever does it still must deal with the list I put out earlier.
It's a thought:). I'm a FAST writer, but I'm not an accurate editor (you can probably tell by my posts:P). But if you and the others are interested in the idea, I'd be happy to help where I can.
I'm very interested in seeing a book put together detailing what I've already mentioned. It won't be an 'Agate Index' but it would be a great brother/sister project. For example, I'd love to see photos and stories from people's adventures in the 1970's and earlier - when a different time and different set of circumstances existed. I'd love to see family histories of multi-generational rockhounds and hear stories of how it all began for them, and what their most prized (not most valuable) rocks are.
I'm just buried. These projects need way more resources than my simple cut and paste and edit jobs of the index. You need contributors who are willing to invest time and energy into creating their portions of 'your' book. Writing needs to be gathered. If you go hard copy, printer and costs and investments need to be gathered/raised. Again, I'm not saying it should not be done. It sounds wonderful. Timewise, i have a hard enough time putting together these Indexes - and they have no writing except the intros, essentially.
As for money, that's easy... % contribution for % benefit. If there's a cost, same % of cost. If you supply 10 pix out of 500 pix, what's that worth? Pix 50% / text 50%. For example, if you provide 10 pix, no text, that's 1/50 of 1/2 (other half for the text).
It's a great and functional idea, but not one I personally want to deal with - hence free/free. I may be OCD (check out those indexes I put together....) but I have to decide where to put my time. In addition, if you get anything wrong with your calculations, make sure you have a good lawyer, because people have a habit of litigation with they think they've been slighted...and if you have to readjust for one person, then most likely all the other % will need to be adjusted.
Again - for me - not something I have time to break apart and monitor. If I add two images in the Index, I don't need to readjust anything but the index and table of contents. I can't imagine revising contributor payout sheets. At least with the TOContents and Index, I'm still writing about rocks. Oh - and don't forget tax forms and paystubs and everything else that goes with a small business. Once you start charging....you got to pay Uncle Sam...
Editors gets 20% for the collation off the top (plus % of content contribution). Now that's my off the top of head breakdown, which naturally you can refine, but a % break like that is very fair, no one's getting ripped off, and everyone can contribute.
Honestly, contribute <X> pix and text for a FREE COPY alone is worth it, your name's in lights to show your family and friends. Ok, at least somewhere in the 'contributors' page, like movie credits... how kewl is that? You are now published!!!
It's very Kewl, but I run several dozen contributors per issue, of which maybe 15 or 20 are major contibutors. Giving 15 people a $30 book (of which $15 might be cost) plus shipping adds $225 + to you bottom line. If I get people to donate for free - it's even cheaper... Money just complicates things...Others may love to play the accountant, but I avoid it like the plague.
There's several self-publishing outfits, Lulu is one. If you can shop it with 'real' editors who will front a payment, even better:).
It's your baby, you've been doing this a long time! A hardback book that's going to have a copy in the Library of Congress, that people can reference for the next 100 years? I don't think it's about money, it's also about recognition and giving people a nice big book they contributed to too:).
Anyway, it's a neat thought, and if you decide you want to do it or would like some help, let me know:).
[/quote]
I'm really trying not to be argumentative but realistic in terms of what it would cost in time and money and participation to expand the project into the realm of hardcopies and by default - money.
I'm into this publishing bit because I enjoy doing these books. Adding money and cost will decrease my enjoyment, hence, no effort and the index goes away.
My true goal (and one Mel has stated in the past) is to get this think to go viral. Initially the first 2010 edition was a great rough start. It's the last two volumes that I believe are beginning to shine. Once I have a set, I am sending messages to any club I can find, plus the AFMS and the CFMS. I'll be printing copies to submit for the awards, but I'm first seeing if I can submit them on disk, as that is how they were published. It might be interesting to nudge the Federations to see how they handle updated technology....it will also be interesting to see if they gain a broader following...
Anyway....I start school again tomorrow and really don't want to go to sleep on this last day of my summer vacation....so if you are wondering why I am such a windbag right now, it's because my pillow is calling me and all I hear is the ruckus of children....
Lowell
ps - I never knew how many colors I could choose from for my writing..... mwa ha ha!
Ah heck....it is late. Time to heed the siren's call.
Love your comments and questions.
Please see below responses - and if I ramble or lose my thoughts, I apologize. I'm tired...I'll write why at the bottom of my post....
Well, some people LIKE hardcopies:)... not the least of which the photography detail:).
Now don't get me wrong. I love real live hardcover/softcover books. I got myself a storage unit with 3,000 of the suckers packed away (they used to be here at home but my daughter's bedroom knocked out my personal library....(heavy sigh) I love the way old books smell, and I love the new colorful books coming out in the agate field recently.
Nor will I argue the details of photography. Transferring the indexes to PDF files lowers the photo quality, though I've been finding ways to better reprint photos.
Besides, as stated in the book - you can print the indexes yourself. You just can't print copies and then sell them. My agreements when I ask for permission to use images, is strictly for a free share index. You can print and/or digitally copy it as much as you want. It just can't be sold. Why? All image copyrights still belong to the individual contributor. I never asked for or received permission to use the images beyond their current free use. I probably would have to go back and ask for permission to put them on an Agate/Index facebook page if I ever go that direction. Do I think they'll (the contributors) will say 'no'. Probably not, but I've had more than on person specify that I have permission for reprint rights solely in this format.
But since you're doing an ebook ANYWAY... adding the text wouldn't be such a big deal, and then you can shop an editor?? Or is the fact that it's been an ebook mean no editor would be interested? (I read that somewhere a while ago, but not sure if it's true).
The Index is meant to be just an index, an identification guide, not a Gem Trail or Journal. Though maps and stories would be great, that is beyond the boundary of this series - though not beyond the scope of what I want to do. Though I plan on adding pictures of collecting sites in a later edition.
I have a collecting book 1/2way done for the Wiley Well Region that is illustrated and filled with stories of the location - both history and personal. I think this is more of what you were talking about. The index, though, will remain pictures and ID's at present.
So it's really not about an editor, it's about the strictest goal of this series set down by myself and a few other people several years ago. It's a guide to quartz materials in the USA.
Would it be great to see a book highlighting personal collections? That would be great! Love it! Would I buy it? Hell yes. Am I going to do it - in a way I already have skeletal versions. I've done four Artists of Agates portfolios (2 Dan Heuer, 1 Bob Rush, 1 Steve Haynes, and I am working on another one for Stones in Motion - Ed, got permission from him a few months ago to start work on showing off his work.)
I'm not saying your idea shouldn't be done as a colorful hardcover (see Ron Gibbs Agates and Jaspers book - it's a great example of how publishing is being done these days), nor am I saying I wouldn't want to be involved in putting it together. My comments last time were primarily directed as to why ebook publishing was better (for me) than print on demand or similar methods - small specialty publisher.) For me - that list of items keeps me from taking these indexes beyond the electronic form. If someone else wanted to tackle them for their project - go for it!
That guy Hans Gamma published a book... and I'm holding it in my hand, and I think most of us bought one?? There's nothing but pix... and they're mostly the same pix on his website. At most there's maybe 5 paragraphs of text.
I love love his series, and it's filled with pages upon pages of photos that show specimens from across the world, and you are using a bit of hyperbole when you say there are maybe 5 paragraphs. There is actually a great deal of writing in that series. (By the way, I have a standing offer of $500 for a copy of Agates I, if anyone is a little cash poor....why? Because Johann Zenz says he's not reprinting the first book again because it is too expensive. I don't know if he's going to crack from pressure from those without that book, but he's so far holding firm on no reprints....)
Would I pay $28 again for it? Yes. Because the PICTURES are accurate, not subject to monitors, and I can lay in bed surrounded with crumbs (not really), drinking milk and reading it:P. Getting milk and crumbs all over my keyboard is not ok.
Not going to argue with being sprawled out in bed with a book over a tablet, but reprinting is a different story - if only 30% of the Agate Index is new - then it's worth my revising and re-releasing it for free...but if I charge $30, is it going to be worth that to everyone who is interested in it? Again, this is a information distribution project - get the info to as many people as possible for their personal use. If I charge $30 another bucks for 30% new content, I'm not going to have as many people get the updated version, and many who do will think that I am gouging them for money....So, free book with free distribution get more people to acquire it than hard copy with a price tag.
Now, your story based idea (which I do love - don't get me wrong) is a different beast....A single shot (or limited series of books) showcasing personal stories and collections is more in line IMHO with a more traditional publishing venue, but whoever does it still must deal with the list I put out earlier.
It's a thought:). I'm a FAST writer, but I'm not an accurate editor (you can probably tell by my posts:P). But if you and the others are interested in the idea, I'd be happy to help where I can.
I'm very interested in seeing a book put together detailing what I've already mentioned. It won't be an 'Agate Index' but it would be a great brother/sister project. For example, I'd love to see photos and stories from people's adventures in the 1970's and earlier - when a different time and different set of circumstances existed. I'd love to see family histories of multi-generational rockhounds and hear stories of how it all began for them, and what their most prized (not most valuable) rocks are.
I'm just buried. These projects need way more resources than my simple cut and paste and edit jobs of the index. You need contributors who are willing to invest time and energy into creating their portions of 'your' book. Writing needs to be gathered. If you go hard copy, printer and costs and investments need to be gathered/raised. Again, I'm not saying it should not be done. It sounds wonderful. Timewise, i have a hard enough time putting together these Indexes - and they have no writing except the intros, essentially.
As for money, that's easy... % contribution for % benefit. If there's a cost, same % of cost. If you supply 10 pix out of 500 pix, what's that worth? Pix 50% / text 50%. For example, if you provide 10 pix, no text, that's 1/50 of 1/2 (other half for the text).
It's a great and functional idea, but not one I personally want to deal with - hence free/free. I may be OCD (check out those indexes I put together....) but I have to decide where to put my time. In addition, if you get anything wrong with your calculations, make sure you have a good lawyer, because people have a habit of litigation with they think they've been slighted...and if you have to readjust for one person, then most likely all the other % will need to be adjusted.
Again - for me - not something I have time to break apart and monitor. If I add two images in the Index, I don't need to readjust anything but the index and table of contents. I can't imagine revising contributor payout sheets. At least with the TOContents and Index, I'm still writing about rocks. Oh - and don't forget tax forms and paystubs and everything else that goes with a small business. Once you start charging....you got to pay Uncle Sam...
Editors gets 20% for the collation off the top (plus % of content contribution). Now that's my off the top of head breakdown, which naturally you can refine, but a % break like that is very fair, no one's getting ripped off, and everyone can contribute.
Honestly, contribute <X> pix and text for a FREE COPY alone is worth it, your name's in lights to show your family and friends. Ok, at least somewhere in the 'contributors' page, like movie credits... how kewl is that? You are now published!!!
It's very Kewl, but I run several dozen contributors per issue, of which maybe 15 or 20 are major contibutors. Giving 15 people a $30 book (of which $15 might be cost) plus shipping adds $225 + to you bottom line. If I get people to donate for free - it's even cheaper... Money just complicates things...Others may love to play the accountant, but I avoid it like the plague.
There's several self-publishing outfits, Lulu is one. If you can shop it with 'real' editors who will front a payment, even better:).
It's your baby, you've been doing this a long time! A hardback book that's going to have a copy in the Library of Congress, that people can reference for the next 100 years? I don't think it's about money, it's also about recognition and giving people a nice big book they contributed to too:).
Anyway, it's a neat thought, and if you decide you want to do it or would like some help, let me know:).
[/quote]
I'm really trying not to be argumentative but realistic in terms of what it would cost in time and money and participation to expand the project into the realm of hardcopies and by default - money.
I'm into this publishing bit because I enjoy doing these books. Adding money and cost will decrease my enjoyment, hence, no effort and the index goes away.
My true goal (and one Mel has stated in the past) is to get this think to go viral. Initially the first 2010 edition was a great rough start. It's the last two volumes that I believe are beginning to shine. Once I have a set, I am sending messages to any club I can find, plus the AFMS and the CFMS. I'll be printing copies to submit for the awards, but I'm first seeing if I can submit them on disk, as that is how they were published. It might be interesting to nudge the Federations to see how they handle updated technology....it will also be interesting to see if they gain a broader following...
Anyway....I start school again tomorrow and really don't want to go to sleep on this last day of my summer vacation....so if you are wondering why I am such a windbag right now, it's because my pillow is calling me and all I hear is the ruckus of children....
Lowell
ps - I never knew how many colors I could choose from for my writing..... mwa ha ha!
Ah heck....it is late. Time to heed the siren's call.
