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Post by rockjunquie on Jan 16, 2013 12:40:43 GMT -5
I'd like some input into selling cabs. This is my dilemma... I have been selling a few cabs on my blog for my readers. Mostly to give them a good deal and let me make a few dollars back. My prices have been pretty low from what I've been seeing elsewhere. I want to move them and more over to Etsy since I'll never, ever wrap all the stones I cut (and I still buy a few cabs, too).
My problem is, I don't want to sell too high for obvious reasons, including that I keep the best ones for wrapping. BUT, I don't want to sell too low and undercut my fellow cabbers, either. I would like to offer a low price, though, because my cabs aren't that great and I'm really just looking to sell off some cabs to make a little money back from expenses-- destash. I don't cab super fast, yet. So, I doubt I can make my actual time back with lesser material.
I know a cabber on etsy who sells real cheap. I don't think I even want to go so low. I think if I were doing this for a living, he would really piss me off. I happen to know, though, that the guy is super fast and can afford his low prices.
I guess, I'm rambling... But, what I want I guess is some feedback from you sellers. How do I get rid of my extra cabs without selling too low and how do I come by a reasonable price given that I am still slow? (and anything else you want to add)
What I have been thinking is to look at similar cabs and come up with a number from there. Does that sound reasonable?
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Post by Hard Rock Cafe on Jan 16, 2013 12:47:27 GMT -5
Resist the urge to price your cabs too low; it brings the whole market down. How much did you spend on material? How much did you spend on equipment? How much on supplies? How much is your time worth? I would also not sell cabs that are below your standards because it will reflect negatively on your skills and reduce future sales. You might take a look around this site for examples of high quality cabs (design, materials, and finish) for ideas: www.samsilverhawk.com/gems1.htmlChuck
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Post by FrogAndBearCreations on Jan 16, 2013 12:51:20 GMT -5
your pricing will depend on the cost of the material cabbed and your time spent cabbing
I agree on the selling them at a reasonable price so they will move and you make a few bucks too
you could do batches or lots of the so so cabs to make it worth while listing them and get a doable price for the better ones
I have spent upwards of 40 bucks for really great cabs that are decent size and fantastic material
and also I look for bargain cabs so I can make affordable pendants with the base metals
I would suggest you do a lot of browsing and price comparison to make your range of $$ that you want for your cabs.
the higher the price charged the more flawless the cab needs to be
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Post by rockjunquie on Jan 16, 2013 12:54:26 GMT -5
Thanks, good advice. I wouldn't sell crap, but some of the material is definitely NOT what Silverhawk would sell. LOL! I know that some stones, even if not the high end ones, still have a market because I remember starting out wrapping and wanting some cabs to work that were nice enough to sell (and buy) but not costing an arm and a leg. Nowadays, I'll pay top dollar for a great cab and know the good stuff when I see it. I can price a really great cab, I think. It is the average cabs I have a problem with.
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Jan 16, 2013 13:43:17 GMT -5
I will be watching this post for sure. I went through the same headache of trying to find a "fair" price when I started listing my cabs and I have been trying to slowly adjust prices as I learn the market. I agree with your comment about pricing the average or so so cabs being the most difficult. I think I like the idea posted earlier about maybe selling the average ones in lots or 5 or more.
good luck and I hope it goes well for you! Chuck
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Post by orrum on Jan 16, 2013 15:06:52 GMT -5
I have the same problem with my turquoise, some are very good cabs of very rare turquoise but on ebay there is so much stuff that is advertised great but is only so so but you cant tell in the pics. My other problem is my 2 megapixel tablet camera does not take good enough pics. Thats one reason I joined so I could bounce things off the population here. I have a 8 megapixel camera with macro, its ancient but works, but gotta figure out how to transfer the pics to the tablet. Lead the way rockjunkie
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Post by rockjunquie on Jan 16, 2013 15:20:04 GMT -5
Hey, Orrum- I used an ancient camera forever! It was a Nikon 995 and I still miss it, though it only had, I think, 3 mega pixels. 8 should be fine. My new Canon only has 8, I think. What's your old camera? Some of those old Nikons had some great macro lens. With the old camera, I had to get the shot in the frame- no cropping room. With the new one, I can get a larger shot- more background. I bet your old camera will work just fine. Do some googling to find how to get the pics onto the tablet.
I'm working on ads for stones. Tedium.
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Post by deb193redux on Jan 16, 2013 15:20:07 GMT -5
The issue is whether hobbyists and students should not undersell people making a living. Presumable we would like to see professionals (or the trade generally) stay in business. University dairy and meat labs generally sell student work to the public at prices indexed to the local market because they do not want the education of today's students to put put of business the students of 10 years ago.
I don't sell cabs, but I see lots of listings. While I understand it from a business model point of view, I think the whole time and materials stuff is bull-crap. Or, at best a rough guide.
In my opinion what actually is done to/with the materials counts a lot. I have seen cabs where the composition (both outline and pattern) were genius. I have seen cabs where the technical skill in the control of the dome (no ugly flat spots) or the degree of polish was perfect. I have also seen a lot of ugly stuff that only a rockhound could love.
I don't care how much time you spent or how much your materials cost. If you ruined a nice rock by ploddingly ignoring composition (or making outright tacky choices) or poor technical cabbing skills, then it needs to be sold low. It is student-grade work at best. Trying to price these in the range of well-crafted cabs by talented and practiced craftsman/artists confuses the market IMO.
But then again, if some fool wants to pay top dollar for 2nd grad and or tacky work, let the fool and his dollar be parted.
Tela, I see your cabbing skills as strong, an your composition skills as inspired. I would not put you consistently in the class of Gerard Scott or Sam Silverhawk, but you seem to visit that rarefied realm a lot.
You recently told me to trust my instincts. I now tell you the same. I think you know when a cab is special and top quality, and I think you know when it is technically well made but otherwise ordinary. Do not hesitate to let the ordinary ones go at a discount. To inflate their price to protect some "market" or some cabber who expects an hourly wage for less-inspired work is just misguided protectionism.
The folks who want to make a living either have to make really beautiful premium cabs, or high production, or some of both. Or taking custom orders, or somehow standing out form the crowd. The burden is on them. Students, part time cabbers and hobbyists, collection liquidators, and various other parties should be able to discount materials as they see fit without "the market" giving them ugly reprimands.
So, time and materials and overhead is a starting point to be discounted if quality is low (and/or supply is high), and marked up if quality is high. True art is not priced by time and materials or a Picasso would cost the same as the artist painting on the downtown market square.
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Post by deb193redux on Jan 16, 2013 15:24:35 GMT -5
I have the same problem with my turquoise, some are very good cabs of very rare turquoise but on ebay there is so much stuff that is advertised great but is only so so but you cant tell in the pics. My other problem is my 2 megapixel tablet camera does not take good enough pics. Thats one reason I joined so I could bounce things off the population here. I have a 8 megapixel camera with macro, its ancient but works, but gotta figure out how to transfer the pics to the tablet. Lead the way rockjunkie Sorry the "bouncing" will not work. On forums like this, most people routinely label everything a "great", "amazing", or "super". You might get some honest feedback if you really really an repeatedly ask for it. But, no guarantee. Honest well meant critique is looked at askance, and meaningless abundance of superlatives abounds.
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Post by orrum on Jan 16, 2013 15:38:22 GMT -5
I use to breed, raise, train and show my.own registered Paint horses. Sometimes I was better than the pros n sometimes not! Let me tell you nothing against the pros but most of them get jaded,tired and uninspired and just keep going thru the motions to a good ride in front of the judge. Amatuers are inspired, desperately unafraid to challenge the boundarys n limits of the discipline!!!! I ask a judge one time after the show what I could do to improve my horses and my performance......she said "Change nothing, every rider in every class you were in had to beat you, you were on the edge and your horse was on the muscle!!!!" Thats it folks, bottom.line without rookies there would be no pros!!! While on the subject I rode many a ugly horse that was a true winner, you cant always ride beauty and win! Think.on it, dream it, want it and you can have it!!!! I got only one leg but when able to ride after the surgery I showed one more season........against the paid professionals.......the Hi Point All Around Year End trophy saddle is sitting.in my living room on a nice rack. It inspires me. I put a pic of it on hefe when I get the thing figured out. In the meantine do as I use to tell my students, judge yourself and you decide who the winnef is. May the sun shine, may the moon rise, may the wind blow, may your cabs astound n captivate rockjunmuie!!!!!
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Post by orrum on Jan 16, 2013 15:41:08 GMT -5
Oops rockjunkuie sorry about the spelling!
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Post by rockjunquie on Jan 16, 2013 16:07:04 GMT -5
Daniel, first, thank you so much for the kind words and because they are from you they mean all the more. I still consider myself a newbie, so I melted when reading your opinion of my work. Second, that was a fabulous answer and a great perspective. Your honesty is refreshing. I was thinking along the same lines. I mean if I had a slab of really great rock and cut out a gem of a cab and finished it to perfection, it would be worth way more for the same time and material as the slab's left overs would be worth. Makes sense. I'm thinking that those left over cabs would be a "bargain" for someone because of the material it would be- for those that like the big names in the title- rather than for the cut it would be. I price a lot of my work according to the stone quality. A super composed cab is more inspiring and is going to lead to a better piece of jewelry and it often does. The leftovers, have name power and that's it. Having said that, I guess you can chalk it up to "perceived value" and the premium for that has to be added in. And, one should try to come close to making up expenses and time, but I have seen and cut a few that don't rank the price in labor let alone the material. So, it's a juggling act between all the issues, as I see it. Thank you, Daniel, you've given me a lot to think about. I'm still not comfortable with going so low that it undercuts someone making a living, though.
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Post by deb193redux on Jan 16, 2013 17:21:12 GMT -5
I get your point because someone with a day job can afford to go lower than someone who needs to pay themselves for a days work.
There are good (selfish?) reasons for occasional lapidaries (can we generalize to jewelers, artists, and jewelry artists?) and hobbyists to want the professionals to remain in business. The cost of machinery and supplies would be really high if the consumer community shrank drastically because the "pros" hang it up. Many events/publications might not happen if the pros were not also attending - more so in jewelry than specifically in lapidary, but you can get the gist.
The issue you poise is analogous to a community not wanting a big-box store to undercut a local merchant so much that the local merchant closes shop. From a jobs point of view it might not matter whether big-box or mom-n-pop employ local residents, and big-box might even be able to offer better benefits. But the diversity of local outlets shrinks, which may be bad. Also, mom-n-pop spend in the community, while the shareholders of big-box likely spend their dividends elsewhere.
There are also models where artistry does not dictate price, but rather volume. Consider a well written Philip Roth novel, and a slap-together formula popular mystery. Both will likely have similar hardcover and softcover prices. The artist is rewarded by much more sales (in a perfect world) and many many reprints.
IMO, if you were selling stuff at a loss in great volume or very often, possibly with the malicious intent of destroying the livelihood of respected tradesman, that would be a different matter. Boatsman are held responsible for their wake, but we must remember that your wake is small.
Your question/situation is also interesting because you are considering the ethics of pricing the over-production you do not need for you own work. I think the situation of someone who just makes cabs for a hobby (or non-primary living) selling/pricing everything they make might be a different situation.
Still, consideration for the market is one thing. Moderation is also important. If we were to be "correct" about everything, we would never sell used furniture because some folks make a living making new furniture, or we would never buy anything from a salvage store because the GNP does better when we buy new .. etc.
Then there are always educational efforts to make the consumer more discerning. Sounds good, but the ones with great skill and talent would benefit, while those presently getting "stock" prices from a less-discerning public - well they would not do too well.
I think you will do find with the juggling.
One idea is that you do not have to sell over-production, and you have the luxury of waiting for a buyer that fits you ethics. For example someone buying cabs to supply wire-wrappers or metal smiths they are teaching. Or, a rock collector who just wants a cab of a particular material.
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Don
Cave Dweller
He wants you too, Malachi.
Member since December 2009
Posts: 2,616
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Post by Don on Jan 16, 2013 17:54:51 GMT -5
I don't think you can so casually put aside calculating a base price for finished work. labor, materials, equipment, SG&A, etc all should be account for in pricing finished work and then more intangible values like cut and quality, artistic aesthetic, should be added or subtracted from that starting base price. If the cab is cut poorly, consider it a "second" and take a loss on it. If the composition isn't really inspired, but the execution of the workmanship is good, then it should be sold for a moderate profit above your cost. if the cab is really exceptional, you should price it accordingly.
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Post by rockjunquie on Jan 16, 2013 18:14:11 GMT -5
Thanks Don, you are right in so far as if this is your business. But, for someone like myself who is doing more of a destash than becoming a fulltime cab seller, other issues come into play. Like, how do you price stuff you swapped for? How do you price a cab that would take most pros 10 minutes and took you 45 mins? I mean, if we are talking sodalite, my labor would be tough to charge for.
What you are saying makes perfect sense for someone who's business it is. I'm between the lines and the lines blur.
Perhaps, I should consider the cab end part of my business then? Hadn't thought of it that way before. Like I said, I was more thinking of a destash.
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Don
Cave Dweller
He wants you too, Malachi.
Member since December 2009
Posts: 2,616
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Post by Don on Jan 16, 2013 19:06:48 GMT -5
Definitely treat this as part of your business. Everyone has costs, hobbyists and professionals alike. I'm not saying that everyone should value their time at $20/hr or $5/hr however I think we can all agree that time is valuable no matter how it is spent and if you're going to devote that time to produce a product or service of some kind, that time should be accounted for in one way or another.
I have plenty of cabs and finished jewelry that I'll never get all of the actual labor value out of for one reason or another, but that's no reason to outright dismiss that investment in time. For those items, I'll figure out how much labor on average I spend to complete a piece and apply that average to the cost instead of trying to use "actual" cost. that way I'll at least get something for my investment.
For items you swapped for, consider the value of the items you traded and the shipping cost.
one thing I get asked at shows all the time is "why does it cost this much?". I'm able to backup my prices with "real" costs that I can itemize if necessary. It's a lot better response then "Well, I just pulled some numbers out of my @$$ and wanted to see if they'd stick."
I think your cabbing work is terrific; and for the record, I don't know anyone who can pull of a really well done 5 or 10 minute cab. 45 min is about standard for me.
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Post by orrum on Jan 16, 2013 19:07:29 GMT -5
Wow rockjunquie you certainly made a nice lively lil discussion, I just learned a bunch, thanks for bringing the subject up.
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Post by FrogAndBearCreations on Jan 16, 2013 19:34:50 GMT -5
destashing = sold in lots of X amount the buyer will be happy and so will you with a few extra $$ and more space for your higher quality stuff I mostly pass along my overages to up and coming newbies that need the incentive for learning wire wrapping and cabbing for free but that is just me
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Post by rockjunquie on Jan 16, 2013 20:01:30 GMT -5
Points taken, Don. I hear what you are saying. Not much different than pricing jewelry. Yup, I went ahead and put together a few lots. And, then there's some to sell separately. For the record, I give tons of stuff away. Mostly to wrappers, but some to cabbers, too. Being new to cutting, though, I don't know so many. I just boxed up about 60 preforms and some slabs to send out today. I'm talking about what I have to get rid of after I give stuff away. Things have a way of piling up.
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bushkraft
having dreams about rocks
Public nuisance Number 1
Member since July 2011
Posts: 65
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Post by bushkraft on Jan 17, 2013 18:38:15 GMT -5
I have been selling cabs and jewellery down here in Western Australia for many years, I have discovered that without doubt the most successful way to 'off load' cabs is through market stalls, ideally to maximise the dollar they should be 'value added' by turning them into wearable jewellery either by wire wrapping them or by drilling a 1.5mm hole and glueing in a simple wire bail, add a piece of waxed linen and wallah !! a simple pendant and a little piece of Australia hanging round someone's neck.
I have tried etsy and offered some fabulous marra mamba cabs for sale with only limited success, mainly because the photographs do not do the item justice.
When I sell at markets I do not display prices, I have a sign that says "minimum price $20.00 dollars, maximum price $70.00 feel free to negotiate" that way the customer barters until they feel that they have paid a fair price, I also have a section for top-of-the-range items that I sell mainly to collectors, over the years I have built up a following of regulars that visit my stall every week.
It is true to say that trying to value an item by estimating time spent, plus production costs, plus an intrinsic value for the stone is very difficult, when all's said and done an item is worth what the customer is prepared to pay for it.
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