snuffy
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Post by snuffy on May 28, 2013 17:30:22 GMT -5
Are yall aware of the availability of coral snake anti-venom now?
snuffy
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on May 28, 2013 17:42:10 GMT -5
I think that they do not stock it any more due to cost.I read something about this Snuffy.What do you know?
I know an adult coral snake holds about 10mg of venom.Only 5mg is required to kill an adult and delivery is not very efficient.On the other hand,a cobra holds 200mg of same type deadly venom and can deliver much more efficiently than a big rattler.
Coral snakes have not killed in this area for like 50 years.Rattlers and moccasins a different story.And terrible tissue damage by Pygmy Rattlers is common.Copperheads right behind Pygmys.
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Post by helens on May 28, 2013 18:51:09 GMT -5
I read the same thing... they dont' stock coral snake venom. Tho if you got bit by one, and didn't get it off in time, what good that will do you anyway... you won't make it to the hospital before you die very painfully is my understanding.
Plus... I don't think there's a shortage of coral snakes here... and I have never ever heard of anyone bit by one ever. I think they're just too small to do much damage, and just reflex would knock one off you if it doesn't have big enough fangs to grab... and I don't think most of them are big enough to have very big fangs.
The BAD thing here are Brown Recluse spiders... people get bit by those a lot, and they are all over the place. They will rot pieces off you... it's pretty bad, and very common.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2013 21:01:22 GMT -5
The BAD thing here are Brown Recluse spiders... people get bit by those a lot, and they are all over the place. They will rot pieces off you... it's pretty bad, and very common. Peninsular Florida has no brown recluse spiders! ![](http://spiders.ucr.edu/images/colorloxmap.gif) Read more .... The myth of the Brown Recluse
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Post by helens on May 28, 2013 21:05:16 GMT -5
WRONG!!!! One of my husband's employees got bit by one on his lip, and it got necrotic and they had to cut almost 1/4 of his face off. It was absolutely a brown recluse spider, and the hospital confirmed it.
I have heard of other bites, tho we didn't know the people personally, but this was absolutely confirmed to be a Brown Recluse bite, and it was in Orlando that it happened.
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Post by helens on May 28, 2013 21:08:21 GMT -5
Just checked, and your info is wrong. This is from the University of Florida: edis.ifas.ufl.edu/in576The brown recluse spider, Loxosceles reclusa Gertsch & Mulaik, is frequently reported in Florida as a cause of necrotic lesions in humans. For example, in the year 2000 alone, Loft (2001) reported that the Florida Poison Control Network had recorded nearly 300 alleged cases of brown recluse bites in the state; a subset of 95 of these bites was reported in the 21 counties (essentially Central Florida) under the jurisdiction of the regional poison control center in Tampa.
I called the Florida Poison Control Network to confirm these numbers, and was cited 182 total cases and 96 in the Tampa region. The actual numbers are less important than the fact that a significant number of unconfirmed brown recluse spider bites are reported in the state every year. Yet not one specimen of brown recluse spider has ever been collected in Tampa, and the only records of Loxosceles species in the entire region are from Orlando and vicinity. A general review of the brown recluse, along with a critical examination of the known distribution of brown recluse and related spiders in Florida, seems in order at this time. Can read the rest of the report yourself. Plus, I've seen, and smushed, them in my yard.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2013 21:09:25 GMT -5
*L* OK Scott, I know they are docile snakes but that's just freaking nuts *L*....Mel Gotta agree. Thin skin on lips and tongue are probably areas that would be most tempting for them to make use of their short fangs – one of those "Kids, please don't try this at home" pictures. That's interesting info and great photos, though. Just 'cuz it is venomous, doesn't mean it bites. Nor does it mean it is dangerous. The venom in snakes is there for gathering prey. Killing food. Coral snakes are snake eaters, so their venom stops a snake from fighting back. Vipers/pit vipers are tissue destroying to aid in the digestion of the food, even before it is eaten. The various species all have various methods of defense. While many can and do bite many others do so only as a last resort. Notice in Jim's description of being bit by a florida coral snake that (a) he had to "show off" probably putting the animal under extreme duress and (b) when it bit him it failed to deliver any venom? Jim's snake valued it's venom for gathering prey more than it did for fending off a predator. It's called a dry bite. Venomous snakes do indeed have control over their venom delivery. Another coral snake mimic found in the same habitat. ![](http://oakdome.com/k5/lesson-plans/powerpoint/images/camouflage-pics/mimicry/coral-scarlet-kingsnake-large.jpg)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2013 21:19:08 GMT -5
Helen, Vetter is the world's authority on Loxosceles bites. Read his website. I can tell you failed to bother to read it.
Here:
Anderson, Phillip, C. 1998. Missouri brown recluse spider: a review and update. Missouri Medicine 95: 318-322.
"The entire loxoscelism literature is deficient in failing to produce the evidence that the bite of the Loxosceles reclusa was the cause of the illness reported."
"The spider must be recovered on the site promptly and identified expertly. Clinical impression alone, without other physical evidence, is not sufficiently convincing."
" the early clinical literature about loxoscelism is almost useless."
". several deaths from loxoscelism were reported in medical journals, but none of the reports is convincing. We are not aware of any verifiable deaths caused by the bite of the North American brown recluse spider."
"Almost all brown recluse spider bites heal nicely in two to three months without medical treatment at all. Also the long-term medical outcome is excellent without treatment."
"In my opinion, early debridement without closure or grafting also results in delayed healing, more scarring, and without relief of pain or reduction in risks."
"Systematic loxoscelism is uncommon, especially in adults."
"We estimate that we have seen or reviewed about 1,000 credible recluse spider bites, and we have seen about a dozen cases of impressive, sustained hemolysis."
"It would be fair to estimate that systemic loxoscelism occurs in much less than 1% of cases of focal necrosis of the skin due to loxosotoxin."
".the prime credo for the physician is to consider necrotizing cutaneous infection as the first diagnosis whenever you recognize focal necrosis in skin. Consider loxoscelism only after excluding infection."
"All medically significant recluse spider bites have central necrosis, that is, all of them are seen initially as central sinking blue-gray macules on the skin with a wide halo of mixed erythema and vasoconstriction (red-white-blue). If the central lesion is urticarial or nodular, another kind of injury is involved, not a recluse spider bite. Elderly people with diabetes, chronic liver disease, or alcoholism most often appear with spontaneous necrotizing fasciitis, while healthy children and young adults are the usual patients with loxoscelism."
"..cutaneous loxoscelism is a focal, single necrotic lesion without adenopathy or lymphangitis early, not exudative, not progressive after about 18-24 hours, and associated with only mild fever or toxicity in almost all cases. The patients do not seem very ill."
"Most recluse bites referred to us arrive already on high-dose antibiotics. We have never encountered an infected bite, even in unmedicated patients. Antibiotics are unnecessary, and may lend to a false sense of security or even induce errors in the proper diagnosis of cellulitis. It is best not to use antibiotics except for the credible diagnosis of infection, as against loxoscelism."
"Coagulopathy in adults from an ordinary spider bite is almost never seen."
"With no physician's care at all, most recluse spider bites show an excellent outcome."
"Healing may be slow, but all lesions heal and mostly with a minimum of scarring. Surgery can offer little or nothing more. No medications are required to treat brown recluse spider bites."
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Post by helens on May 28, 2013 21:21:45 GMT -5
Just realized why (maybe) the Univ of Ca report on the brown recluse range is different from the Univ of Florida's.
Florida has a subvariety of reclusa, it's called: Loxosceles reclusa Gertsch & Mulaik . That's the strangest taxonomy I've ever seen, but maybe that's why the California report bypassed it, they discounted all sub varieties?.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2013 21:25:27 GMT -5
Helen; you have positively identified brown recluse in the yard? You have a degree in entomology? You have made it a life's study to identify a spider experts find challenging? Doi you count the eyes? Vetter, R. S. 2009. Arachnids misidentified as brown recluse spiders by medical personnel and other authorities in North America. Toxicon 54: 545-547. The information on this website: www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7468.htmlIs peer reviewed and published on a university website. Somehow I am gonna trust a scientist and his peers before I belive the word of an ER doctor who never even saw the spider or an artist who smushes spiders in her yard. MEDICAL MISDIAGNOSES One reason for the great awareness of the recluse spiders throughout North America is that necrotic (rotting flesh) wounds are commonly misdiagnosed as “brown recluse bites.” Although recluses can cause these types of wounds, the biological data involving the distribution of the spider indicate that most of these diagnoses are incorrect. A world-renowned toxicology physician who worked at University of Southern California Medical Center estimates that most general spider bites in California referred to him were actually the work of other arthropods and that 60% of “brown recluse spider bite” diagnoses came from areas where no Loxosceles spiders were known to exist. This is a serious problem in that several medical conditions misdiagnosed as recluse bites can lead to debilitating and potentially fatal consequences. For example, group A Streptococcus infection, sometimes misdiagnosed as a brown recluse bite, has a fatality rate that can vary from 20 to 80% depending on how quickly it is correctly diagnosed. In serious cases death can occur in a few days.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on May 28, 2013 21:26:04 GMT -5
A fairly common event is a hawk dying from coral snake bite.The hawk catches the snake in a swoop.The snake bites the hawk in flight.The hawk lands to start eating the snake.In some cases the poison hits home and both are done.
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Post by helens on May 28, 2013 21:26:19 GMT -5
Scott, did you even click the link I showed you for the University of Florida?
What does the 'worlds expert' on a bite have to do with the LOCATION of the spiders? This is FLORIDA, and he's in CALIFORNIA. UF is one of the foremost Universities for the Natural Sciences in the entire SE USA.
I think the local FLORIDA agricultural University would know what indigenous species are in Florida, since you can walk out the door and find them.
NOT to mention that if you looked at the article, the photos of the spiders are published in fine detail, and we can go LOOK at them if we spend a bit of time looking outside.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2013 21:27:42 GMT -5
Loxosceles reclusa Gertsch & Mulaik
The scientific name of the spider is Loxosceles reclusa and Gertsch & Mulaik published the paper. I have inserted the accepted range map of all USA species of Loxosceles above. L. eclusa barely makes it to Florida. Up on the panhandle.
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Post by helens on May 28, 2013 21:31:50 GMT -5
Will bold the quotes from my last post for you: LINK to the University of Florida article about LOCATION: edis.ifas.ufl.edu/in576The brown recluse spider, Loxosceles reclusa Gertsch & Mulaik, is frequently reported in Florida as a cause of necrotic lesions in humans. For example, in the year 2000 alone, Loft (2001) reported that the Florida Poison Control Network had recorded nearly 300 alleged cases of brown recluse bites in the state; a subset of 95 of these bites was reported in the 21 counties (essentially Central Florida) under the jurisdiction of the regional poison control center in Tampa. I called the Florida Poison Control Network to confirm these numbers, and was cited 182 total cases and 96 in the Tampa region. The actual numbers are less important than the fact that a significant number of unconfirmed brown recluse spider bites are reported in the state every year. Yet not one specimen of brown recluse spider has ever been collected in Tampa, and the only records of Loxosceles species in the entire region are from Orlando and vicinity. A general review of the brown recluse, along with a critical examination of the known distribution of brown recluse and related spiders in Florida, seems in order at this time. Read more: forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/index.cgi?board=polit&action=display&thread=60056&page=2#ixzz2Ue2sBqtn
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Post by helens on May 28, 2013 21:32:39 GMT -5
But these spiders do not exist in Florida, because one guy in CALIFORNIA said so. Really?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2013 21:35:11 GMT -5
Just realized why (maybe) the Univ of Ca report on the brown recluse range is different from the Univ of Florida's. Florida has a subvariety of reclusa, it's called: Loxosceles reclusa Gertsch & Mulaik . That's the strangest taxonomy I've ever seen, but maybe that's why the California report bypassed it, they discounted all sub varieties?. I addressed the taxonomy in another post. Yes, I did read your article. It seems you failed to read it in it's entirety. Distribution Loxosceles reclusa was described by Gertsch and Mulaik (1940) from Texas. At the time of the first revision of the genus Loxosceles in the Americas (Gertsch 1958), the known distribution ranged from Central Texas to southern Kansas, east through middle Missouri to western Tennessee and northern Alabama, and south to southern Mississippi. Gorham (1968) added Illinois, Kentucky and northern Georgia. Later, he added Nebraska, Iowa, Indiana and Ohio, with scattered introductions in other states, including Florida; his map indicated a record in the vicinity of Tallahassee (Gorham 1970). A single Tallahassee record.None from peninsular Florida. and Subsequently, a sailor was bitten on the hand by a male brown recluse in the cargo hold of a naval ship in Jacksonville, in March 1986. This ship had just arrived from North Carolina, where it had loaded supplies. To date, this appears to be the only verified case (the actual causative agent of a bite captured and identified) of brown recluse spider bite in Florida [due to complicating factors, medical personnel familiar with this case even questioned the veracity of this one alleged bite]. I did read your article and it perfectly mirrors the science in the papers I reference. vetter is the worlds foremost authority on the genus and this has nothing to do with his geography. I just happen to know him because of his geography.
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Post by helens on May 28, 2013 21:37:14 GMT -5
My article cited the Poison stats from 2001.... how OLD is your article... 1970?!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2013 21:38:02 GMT -5
University of Florida entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/urban/spiders/brown_recluse_spider.htmThe actual numbers are less important than the fact that a significant number of unconfirmed brown recluse spider bites are reported in the state every year. Yet not one specimen of brown recluse spider has ever been collected in Tampa, and the only records of Loxosceles species in the entire region are from Orlando and vicinity. A general review of the brown recluse, along with a critical examination of the known distribution of brown recluse and related spiders in Florida, seems in order at this time. What part of the state do you live in?
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Post by helens on May 28, 2013 21:38:39 GMT -5
Maybe the 3rd time is the charm... here it is AGAIN: Will bold the quotes from my last post for you: LINK to the University of Florida article about LOCATION: edis.ifas.ufl.edu/in576The brown recluse spider, Loxosceles reclusa Gertsch & Mulaik, is frequently reported in Florida as a cause of necrotic lesions in humans. For example, in the year 2000 alone, Loft (2001) reported that the Florida Poison Control Network had recorded nearly 300 alleged cases of brown recluse bites in the state; a subset of 95 of these bites was reported in the 21 counties (essentially Central Florida) under the jurisdiction of the regional poison control center in Tampa. I called the Florida Poison Control Network to confirm these numbers, and was cited 182 total cases and 96 in the Tampa region. The actual numbers are less important than the fact that a significant number of unconfirmed brown recluse spider bites are reported in the state every year. Yet not one specimen of brown recluse spider has ever been collected in Tampa, and the only records of Loxosceles species in the entire region are from Orlando and vicinity. A general review of the brown recluse, along with a critical examination of the known distribution of brown recluse and related spiders in Florida, seems in order at this time. Read more: forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/index.cgi?b....2#ixzz2Ue2sBqtn Read more: forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=polit&thread=60056&page=3#ixzz2Ue4vN3qV
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Post by helens on May 28, 2013 21:39:31 GMT -5
Just told you the guy got bit in ORLANDO in the first post about it:).
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