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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2013 21:41:31 GMT -5
My article cited the Poison stats from 2001.... how OLD is your article... 1970?! My articles quoted have dates. One is 2010. 1970 is the most recent revision of the Genus so yes, that data is referable. The Vetter website is current and being added to. That's the first one I quoted, the one with the range map you have chosen to ignore.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2013 21:42:06 GMT -5
Just told you the guy got bit in ORLANDO in the first post about it:). So you happen to know the ONE GUY EVER RECORDED??
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Post by helens on May 28, 2013 21:48:48 GMT -5
LMAO... No! If you READ the quote, it SAYS that the Poison Control Center said that there were 182 cases REPORTED to Poison Control, and who knows HOW many that were unreported!!!
I love arguing with you, you never give up, even when you're wrong:P.
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on May 28, 2013 21:59:19 GMT -5
Yeah, that recluse spider map is way out of date, mainly because they travel so well in furniture, boxes, shoes etc when folks move around the country. Coastal Southern Calif. doesn't show on your map and we used to regularly get them in when I worked at the Ag Dept years ago. Also had several folks come in with bites and they were nasty things with spreading necrosis. Just like fire ants that travel in nursery stock, recluse spiders are far travelers and most records, like with insects, are sadly out of date. Got a friend who does insects here locally and he finds stuff all the time where there is no record for this county. Doesn't mean they ain't here. Just means no University guy has collected one or had one turned int to him so he can record it.
On the same note, we have tons of recluse spiders here and it's unnerving where they show up. Got to keep your eyes open and shake out the clothes just like with scorpions. Insecticide I use indoors is actually more for them than for scorpions as I really do not like recluse spiders...Mel
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Post by helens on May 28, 2013 22:05:31 GMT -5
We have a lot of them here in Central Florida, and while most people haven't gotten their lip rotted off like that one guy did, everyone around here knows to look for any bite that looks like a bullseye with a blue middle... and RUN for the hospital before it turns into a big rotted patch.
Brown recluse can't be easily confused with ANYTHING else, it's got a dark brown fiddle on its head with longer legs than most spiders. The closest spiders with anything like that has a reddish or light brown smear on it's head.. they don't remotely look the same, and NOTHING looks just like a brown recluse after you've seen one.
There are brown recluse here, you see them more often than snakes, and people here get bit a lot!!!
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on May 28, 2013 22:22:51 GMT -5
Another good identifier is the number of eyes. Most spiders have eight and only a few groups have six. Recluse Spiders are in the six eyed group and they are arranged the three pairs, one set forward and one set to each side. Six eyed crab spiders have it too but differ in other characters....Mel
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2013 22:27:17 GMT -5
LMAO... No! If you READ the quote, it SAYS that the Poison Control Center said that there were 182 cases REPORTED to Poison Control, and who knows HOW many that were unreported!!! I love arguing with you, you never give up, even when you're wrong:P. Except I ain't wrong. Politics is opinion so no right or wrong. This is science. Not opinion. I submit it is you that will not quit when one is mistaken. Please take a moment to thoughtfully read this: My daughter just explained what's going on. We can read the same words and derive two wildly different opinions.We both read this paragraph (paraphrased here): 182 cases reported. - No know Brown Recluse known in the area. Helen hears 182 cases reported, doctors did the diagnosis so they must be correct. And possibly, more study is needed to find recluses in the area. (or something similar, I really do not mean to put words in your mouth) Scott hears - The cases are mis-diagnosed. No known recluses so the doctors are mis-diagnosing staph infections as spider bites. This based on prior expert knowledge gleened from a friend, published in peer reviewed journals and common sense. No known spiders, spider bites cannot occur. Helen said I knew a victim, lost half his face. Helen takes it as truth he had a spider bite. She even refers to lack of evidence of spiders in the area. Dude was in Orlando the same place the ONE documented case was there so this must also be true. and perhaps, "Go find the spiders". Scott heard: Dude lost half his face because doctors misdiagnosed a staph infection and treated him for spider bite, causing dude to lose half his face. And later learned the ONE Orlando case was a South Carolina spider. Normally, one cannot prove a negative. Helen I submit to you, that the nearly complete lack of evidence that Florida has brown recluse spiders at all, except for Tallahassee and one Orlando bite from a South Carolina spider, and further that university students all over Florida are studying spiders, and that hundreds of reported bite cases without the presence of spiders is proof that they ain't there. The only proof being physicians making diagnosis in the absence of spiders. The prevalence of bite diagnosis coupled with an eager population of entomology majors needing to make their mark in science would cause them them to go into the field hunting exhaustively for the species. They have not been found. If there are so many recluse bites in Florida, where are the spiders? The lack of spiders is the proof the diagnosis are faulty. Occam's Razor = the most likely outcome in a given problem is the simplest one possible. We have two possible scenarios: Is it simpler to say the spiders are there despite scientists having looked for decades and have found none? In this instance the only evidence of a spider population is a medical doctor seeing a wound on a patient. Or Is it simpler to say doctors mis-diagnosed because scientists cannot confirm the presence of the spider? In this instance the evidence is the complete lack of specimens. BTW, this phenomenon is not unique to Florida. Rick started his research due to the lack of recluse here in SoCal as well. Doctors nationwide are misdiagnosing spider bites without anything but a wound. No spiders. For me and my loved ones? If I take my kidlet to the MD for a small wound/infection and the doctor says "hmm... looks like a spider bite", I will utilize this as cause to ask physician to look for staph or streptococcus infection. I will also refer him to this website published by the University of California at Riverside. With all respect due; when it comes to my loved ones health, I'll take the word of Rick Vetter MS over you Helen. Vetter, R. S., P. E. Cushing, R. L. Crawford and L. A. Royce. 2003. Diagnoses of brown recluse spider bites (loxoscelism) greatly outnumber actual verifications of the spider in four western American states. Toxicon 42:413-418.
Vetter, R. S., G. B. Edwards and L. F. James. 2004. Reports of envenomation by brown recluse spiders (Araneae: Sicariidae) outnumber verifications of Loxosceles spider in Florida. Journal of Medical Entomology 41: 593-597.
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Post by helens on May 28, 2013 22:29:15 GMT -5
Where are the spiders... in people's backyards Scott, not crawling around in research labs where people write those silly papers!!
Anyway, you took too long to write that and missed Mel's response that HE found brown recluse in HIS area, and it's not on your map either. And HE's a scientist who worked for the Dept of Ag who STUDIES bugs! LOL!
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2013 22:31:23 GMT -5
There are brown recluse here, you see them more often than snakes, and people here get bit a lot!!! I'll pay $5 each for specimens preserved in vodka. Send me ten. Please include locality information, certifying that you personally collected those specimens there. I'll include some nice California rocks in the payment. The only caveat is the specimens must be confirmed as Loxesceles reclusa by an entomologist.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2013 22:32:15 GMT -5
Another good identifier is the number of eyes. Most spiders have eight and only a few groups have six. Recluse Spiders are in the six eyed group and they are arranged the three pairs, one set forward and one set to each side. Six eyed crab spiders have it too but differ in other characters....Mel Good call Mel.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2013 22:33:53 GMT -5
Where are the spiders... in people's backyards Scott, not crawling around in research labs where people write those silly papers!! Anyway, you took too long to write that and missed Mel's response that HE found brown recluse in HIS area, and it's not on your map either. And HE's a scientist who worked for the Dept of Ag who STUDIES bugs! LOL! Why aren't field biologists studying the spiders of Florida finding them? I see no such claim in Mel's reply. Likely he edited it out due to careful thought.
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Post by helens on May 28, 2013 22:34:50 GMT -5
I'm not going to crawl around outside to find you brown recluses. HOWEVER, if the next time I see one, I WILL pickle it and send it to you!!
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2013 22:39:14 GMT -5
I'm not going to crawl around outside to find you brown recluses. HOWEVER, if the next time I see one, I WILL pickle it and send it to you!! Deal! Make sure you have vodka around. I could use some about now. I notice the discussion has changed from spider bites are common to where are the spiders?
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Post by helens on May 28, 2013 22:41:06 GMT -5
LMAO!!! I JUST found THIS from Florida Dept of Ag!!! www.freshfromflorida.com/pi/enpp/ento/venomousspiders.htmlVenomous Spiders in Florida G. B. Edwards, GB.Edwards@freshfromflorida.com, Taxonomic Entomologist, Florida Department of Agriculture & Consumer Services, Division of Plant Industry In Florida, only two main types of venomous spiders occur: widow spiders and recluse spiders. Three species of widow spiders are native to Florida, and a fourth species has been introduced. No species of recluse spiders are native to Florida, but three species have been intercepted, and occasionally have established populations in single buildings at scattered locations. Both types of spiders tend to be found in similar places, which is in or under objects where their presence is not necessarily obvious. In the interest of safety, it is recommended that people engaged in activities where they cannot see where their hands are being placed (such as lifting boards or firewood, or reaching into storage boxes) should wear gloves to prevent being bitten by a hidden spider. Also, clothing--especially if unused for a considerable time--should be checked before wearing, as a spider may have taken up residence within it.
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Post by helens on May 28, 2013 22:42:36 GMT -5
You're going to CONCEDE Scott!!! LOL!
You can EMAIL that Florida Dept of Ag guy (see his email right there? GB.Edwards@freshfromflorida.com ) and ASK him why he wrote that about BROWN RECLUSE in FLORIDA if there aren't any here because some guy in California said so 20 years ago:). LOL!
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Post by helens on May 28, 2013 22:45:09 GMT -5
And HERE are the counties they're FOUND IN: Three species of recluse spiders have been found in Florida: •Loxosceles reclusa, the brown recluse •Loxosceles rufescens, the Mediterranean recluse •Loxosceles laeta, the Chilean recluse The brown recluse has been found in Alachua, Bay, Duval, Jefferson and Leon counties. It typically has a dark violin-shaped mark, although the color is variable.
The Mediterranean recluse has been found in Dade, Escambia, Orange and Osceola counties. It is very similar in appearance to the brown recluse, but the violin mark tends to be lighter in color and has parallel sides.
The Chilean recluse has only recently been found in Florida, in Polk County. It is the largest and most dangerous of the recluse species. The violin mark of this species is dark and wider in front than behind. DPI Pest Alert on the Chilean recluse
More information about recluse spiders in Florida can be found in this citation Entomology Circular 406 pdf document.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2013 22:51:37 GMT -5
LMAO!!! I JUST found THIS from Florida Dept of Ag!!! No species of recluse spiders are native to Florida, but three species have been intercepted, and occasionally have established populations in single buildings at scattered locations. Scott reads: no species of recluse are native to Florida. But three species have been found and occasionally have established populations in single buildings at scattered localities. Scott then thinks: this is not proof of hundreds of spider bites statewide every year. Populations are scattered and obviously recent. The wording leads one to believe they cannot expand beyond a single building, so they cannot be invasive in any way. Helen reads: You did not refute my previous observation, still I won't put words in your mouth. Not my style. Put your thoughts here. I limited myself to two paragraphs, please do the same. Let's let the other's observe and comment. I won't respond unless you ask me to. Two pristine paragraphs from each of us both responding to the same scientific paragraph. Just a little thought experiment to illustrate the human mind. Nothing more.
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Post by helens on May 28, 2013 22:58:15 GMT -5
What? I NEVER said they were NATIVE to Florida!!! Where did you get THAT? LOL! At no point in this discussion anywhere did I say they were native to Florida, How would I know if they are? I'm not etymologist!!
I said they are HERE, and they BITE people!!! You INSIST they are NOT here, and all the people that the Poison Control reported bitten made it up, as did the hospitals who treat them here! LOL!
Your BASIS for them NOT being here is ONE GUY in California drawing an outdated map that did not show them in FLorida... nevermind that people ship stuff all over every day, move their stuff with bugs in them, boxes, etc.... as Mel pointed out to you, and you proceeded to ignore!!
I am really laughing so hard I'm almost peeing my pants. Must be tired and slap happy, but this is hilarious:).
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on May 28, 2013 22:58:22 GMT -5
Yeah Scott, I had a relatively small number of recluse spiders ( Not necessarily all brown recluse) under my dissecting scope in Ventura County, CA. Not what I'd say was common compared to the other species of spider brought in for ID, but maybe one every year or so. I suspect they may not have been from established populations or I would have seen more than the occasional specimen. State of California does not consider an isolated colony as established for mapping purposes. As you've said, the folks who came in with bites could not be directly connected with recluse spiders and I'm sure many were misdiagnosed, but the symptoms were certainly similar. Interestingly enough, a couple of the reported bites occurred on legs as the person was sitting with their legs under a computer desks, a spot the recluse spiders seem to love here in Texas. They love the dark voids. Probably another reason the spiders seem to be extending their range as lots of furniture goes from state to state in household moves. We didn't even find their occurrence interesting enough to send them in to the university...Mel
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on May 28, 2013 23:10:26 GMT -5
I should have also added that I did not key the spiders out as to what particular species of recluse spider they were as all are toxic and that was what the citizens were most interested in. I suspect from the size, that some at least were Chilean as that species has established colonies in LA county adjacent to Ventura County before. Also did not question the folks extensively about recent moves or if they had had something shipped in from a recluse Spider state or country either. My job was just to identify the specimen produced and discuss possible control options and what kind of habitat they might be found in around the house. Another interesting factoid was none came from out in yards. Most were found dead in the home after a pest control guy had sprayed or alive in closets or piles of boxes in storage around the house....Mel
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