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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2013 23:20:07 GMT -5
Hi Mel, we do have Loxoceles deserti down here! Actually east of here. helen; your original claim was The BAD thing here are Brown Recluse spiders... people get bit by those a lot, and they are all over the place. They will rot pieces off you... it's pretty bad, and very common.
Nothing in your recent revelations supports this. Then I stated this: The BAD thing here are Brown Recluse spiders... people get bit by those a lot, and they are all over the place. They will rot pieces off you... it's pretty bad, and very common. Peninsular Florida has no brown recluse spiders! ![](http://spiders.ucr.edu/images/colorloxmap.gif)
I will concede that my data was over three years old. So new data indicates there are now some various three species of recluse that have been 'intercepted' and and occasionally have established populations in single buildings at scattered locations. But that fails to explain How were all these bites happened in 2000-2001 The brown recluse spider, Loxosceles reclusa Gertsch & Mulaik, is frequently reported in Florida as a cause of necrotic lesions in humans. For example, in the year 2000 alone, Loft (2001) reported that the Florida Poison Control Network had recorded nearly 300 alleged cases of brown recluse bites in the state; a subset of 95 of these bites was reported in the 21 counties (essentially Central Florida) under the jurisdiction of the regional poison control center in Tampa.
I called the Florida Poison Control Network to confirm these numbers, and was cited 182 total cases and 96 in the Tampa region. The actual numbers are less important than the fact that a significant number of unconfirmed brown recluse spider bites are reported in the state every year. Yet not one specimen of brown recluse spider has ever been collected in Tampa, and the only records of Loxosceles species in the entire region are from Orlando and vicinity. A general review of the brown recluse, along with a critical examination of the known distribution of brown recluse and related spiders in Florida, seems in order at this time.
OK, you got recluses now. But you still do not have medical cases involving melting faces or whatever happened to your hubbys employee. That and all the others are mis-diagnoses. My point still remains, my path (no recluse) no longer exists.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2013 23:24:22 GMT -5
What? I NEVER said they were NATIVE to Florida!!! Where did you get THAT? LOL! At no point in this discussion anywhere did I say they were native to Florida, How would I know if they are? I'm not etymologist!! Actually it was in the quote you posted but did not parse very well.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on May 28, 2013 23:27:42 GMT -5
--------California Recluse attack------------- Chino resident barely escapes spider attack ![](http://cdn.bbcamerica.com/brightcove/16764841001/16764841001_1252967195001_primeval-s5-e1-still.jpg?pubId=16764841001)
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Post by helens on May 28, 2013 23:38:14 GMT -5
Scott, the mere fact that there were so many bite cases would indicate that after the first few 'reported' incidents, that someone would look on the internet, find your California friend's research, and say... oh look! Here are the bite symptoms. I suspect the hospitals that those 182 reported cases went to would have done the same 2 minute research you and I did, and were able to spit back the signs of brown recluse bites... BEFORE reporting them.
How long did we spend on this discussion? Not even one entire evening. A hospital couldn't do that?
So WHEN they report them, I'd say they had a clue how many were 'real', since they had to treat them too.
182 cases is a lot of bites. How many gator attacks do you think there were in Florida? How many shark attacks in Florida? What about coral snake bites in Florida? 182? 182 is a LOT. Possibly more than all the other attacks combined? Or more than that?
So, my statement: "The BAD thing here are Brown Recluse spiders... people get bit by those a lot, and they are all over the place. They will rot pieces off you... it's pretty bad, and very common"
Is true. They ARE all over the place, they DO rot pieces off you, and they ARE common. So common that they account for more bites than snakes, sharks and gators combined.
Further, since the 182 figure comes from the POISON CONTROL center, whom are the repository of information for ALL venomous bites across the state, I'd say that was more reliable than your sole outdated California source.
The same outdated source who didn't bother to check with Poison control before issuing his MAP, a MAP which is SOURCES do not include Florida Poison Control, the University of Florida's Agriculture dept, OR the Florida Dept of Agriculture's information, all of which I have quoted for you already.
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Post by helens on May 28, 2013 23:40:22 GMT -5
How about this synopsis?
Scott: Brown Recluse do not exist in Florida, because my outdated California source says so.
Helen: Brown Recluse do exist in Florida and bite people all the time, because: 1. Florida Dept of Agriculture 2. University of Florida Dept of Agriculture 3. Florida Poison Control
All say they do, and have clear evidence of people being bitten by them, all of which I have quoted and linked.
Result 1 Helen / 0 Scott
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on May 28, 2013 23:45:54 GMT -5
Scott,Yeah, I knew we had them as natives over in the desert. I worked quarantine as part of my job with AG which involved inspecting shipments for hitchhiking pests. prohibited species etc and the one thing I learned is there is really no such things as a range map these days. You can map where species are native, you can map where they are established, even if non native like our fire ants. You can map where they are reported to the appropriate institution. But the one thing you cannot do is map everywhere they are. This is true simply because, these days with us humans moving nursery stock, household goods, building supplies, machinery etc all over the country, any small portable pest can be turn up anywhere. That's actually why states establish quarantines, to try, unsuccessfully for the most part, to stem the flow of critters we do not want on our soil.
Here's one of my favorite true stories. An entomologist I worked with had a great love for beetles. One day during office hours a guy brought in a really exotic woodborer he found on his porch. Everybody and especially my buddy, got excited cause woodborers can be bad pests ( ie the Eucalyptus Borer that is wiping out the Eucs in Cally). So my buddy and the rest of us kind of started watching for reports of strange beetles in our area and pretty soon we got a call from Harbor freight. Upon investigation by my buddy, who was gleefully crawling all over the warehouse, it was found Harbor Freight was crawling with exotic Asian woodboring beetles. Further investigation revealed their Chinese suppliers had been shipping crated machines into our country braced by wood slats with the bark still on them. hence, an avenue for a new extension of the population maps for several new to the US species of beetle.
Moral of the story. Insects and spiders are small and portable and can go and become established, at least locally, "anywhere" man's activities can carry them and the adaptable ones can colonize with ease. Boll Weevils, Jap beetles, Gypsy Moth, Imported Fire Ant etc are all among these buggy success stories so recluse spiders of various types are sure to be included in the invasion and eventually establish themselves anywhere the environment is hospitable (And they live indoors so weather ain't much a factor)....Mel
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on May 29, 2013 7:52:18 GMT -5
I was thinking about hosting a forum"Start With Subject A,and End With Subject B" LOL
I am so amused at the nonpolitical battles in this category.Like the flat corner yard across from the school where the fight is going to be.This thread has left me in stitches.Science argument is harmless and black/white.
Should consider 2 categories Life + Gen w/politics Life + Gen w/out
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2013 9:16:18 GMT -5
Yes, Helen if you wanna believe hundreds or thousands of medical patients are spider bite victims because recent records of 'intercepted' and and occasionally have established populations in single buildings at scattered locations, then you win.
I for one choose to believe that those recent isolated spiders are not widespread (because the report says so) and therefore cannot be the source of so many "spider bites". Nothing has changed. People are being mis-diagnosed.
Like I said, Scott reads blue and thinks blue, Helen reads Blue and see anything but Blue. Our minds operate so differently it is a wonder we are the same species.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2013 9:22:35 GMT -5
Mel;
Thanks for the description of transport vecotr in insects. Chinese woodboring beetles!! Did they contain it? Did your buddy live near that Harbor Freight??
In my eleven years as a reptile dealer, on two occasions I encountered banana transport. #1 was a large furry non-tarantula spider that made it to the local supermarket. We got $20 for that one. #2 was a SNAKE!! We had never seen this species. Research found that is was a Mexican parrot snake, a frog and lizard eating species. Gorgeous green with blue/black eye-stripes! We got it eating lizards and sold that one too.
One more short situation:
US Fish & Wildlife requires we declare animals upon importation. If I order frogs and declare frogs but the shipper sends geckos I get busted.
If I order tortoises from Africa and get tortoises covered in heartwater ticks, personally, I would have thought a bust for failing to declare an organism in the shipment was in order. Nope. But if the box was made of anything but plywood, I was definitely getting busted!
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2013 9:36:49 GMT -5
Oh and once we got a HUGE female black racer in shipment of Hibiscus from Florida. The local Bonnie nursery called us to come get it.
Helen, best wishes. I hope your skin doesn't melt from a spider bite.
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on May 29, 2013 11:07:12 GMT -5
Scott: Far as I know the beetles were "thought " to have been contained. I've been retired 13 years so don't know if any were found established outside the warehouses which were all over of course. Based on my experiences, there is a high probability the beetles got established in the wild as insects are very good at what they do. The Eucalyptus Borer I mentioned is a very similar example and it went crazy in California.
My buddy was not the initial discoverer of the beetles and only followed up in the warehouse.
I've got a little import story for you. When I worked in the grad lab in college some guys imported a shipment of herps from Africa ( mainly chameleons, monitors etc) They came in a partitioned wooden crate. Story goes, when they dumped out the critters to sort them, some of the bags had come untied and out drops a boomslang. It got loose in the house and they recaptured it by turning off the heat so it settled itself into the heater well. After that event, when I later worked quarantine, I advised the troops to be very careful about inspecting herp shipments we encountered *L*. Freakiest snake I ever saw in a shipment was that Elephant Trunk Snake from Thialand. Boy that booger looked like it should be poisonous but of course was not *L*. Got your heart going a bit when you opened the bags though *L*....Mel
PS; When I was an avid bug and herp collector as a kid, we used to go down to the local fruit warehouse by the tracks and check out the bananas. We found a few big spiders too. I was always hoping for a herp but never found any *L*.
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Post by parfive on May 29, 2013 11:31:52 GMT -5
Brown . . . blue . . . sounds familiar.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2013 11:52:56 GMT -5
Yeah, those danged Africans. They think sending you a boomslang is a gift! That was probably Louis Leakey's son Richard. He was famous for sending extra gifts. An old (really old now!!) colleague got sent a forest cobra as a gift. She laid 19 eggs soon after landing. Two months later 19 little hoods popped out of the incubator and all over the snake room. Luckily he had made the room escape proof (secondary enclosure style) and was able to round up the little biters. The first 13-14 were a challenge. Here is Mel's elephant truck snake. They get big, like an aquatic boa constrictor ![](http://www.natureswindow.dk/RMI_DIAS/rmi04416.jpg)
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2013 11:53:58 GMT -5
HA!
I just noticed what seems to be a Spiny Hill Turtle under the elephant truck snake!
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Post by helens on May 29, 2013 12:05:06 GMT -5
Yes, Helen if you wanna believe hundreds or thousands of medical patients are spider bite victims because recent records of 'intercepted' and and occasionally have established populations in single buildings at scattered locations, then you win. I for one choose to believe that those recent isolated spiders are not widespread (because the report says so) and therefore cannot be the source of so many "spider bites". Nothing has changed. People are being mis-diagnosed. Like I said, Scott reads blue and thinks blue, Helen reads Blue and see anything but Blue. Our minds operate so differently it is a wonder we are the same species. Helen read there are 182 cases of brown recluse bites reported to the Florida Poison Control Center (by hospitals), and untold unreported cases, and I think... gee, there's Florida gators EVERYWHERE and we don't have 182 cases of gator bites. Must be lots of brown recluses. Scott sees a map someone made in California that omitted Florida as a location for Brown Recluse, and thinks... there are no brown recluses in Florida, nevermind that: Florida Dept of Ag says there are: www.freshfromflorida.com/pi/enpp/ento/venomousspiders.htmlUniversity of Florida documented this and called for a recount of brown recluse based on Poison Control bite stats: edis.ifas.ufl.edu/in576Scott 'chooses to believe', despite overwhelming evidence from the only acceptable regional authorities on the subject, something completely different because someone from a different state published an outdated map he saw that showed otherwise. I don't 'believe' they exist, I KNOW they exist here. I quoted you the experts, gave you a personal experience, and have squished some myself here. So clearly, when you read, blue is not blue, it's whatever you choose to 'believe'. And that's fine, but it does explain how you debate:P.
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on May 29, 2013 12:06:15 GMT -5
*L* Scott, you do know the folks in trade. That box was from Leakey.
Those Elephant Trunk Snakes flare their heads out like a watersnake too. Sure make themselves look dangerous but they were very docile. Guy in our lab had gotten some of those spiny turtles too. Big dummy thought they were fully aquatic and put them in a tank where they all drowned. Actually seem to be more like a wood turtle or box turtle in habit and pretty terrestrial....Mel
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2013 12:52:11 GMT -5
Thanks Helen, lol
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on May 29, 2013 12:58:50 GMT -5
Dang Helen.Scott really set you straight.It's OK to admit to defeat,and being wrong. Elaphantitis manatowis indieosis ![](http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7289/8742024596_77150783e3_b.jpg)
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2013 12:59:57 GMT -5
You got it Mel. They are rainforest floor dwellers, utilizing forest edge near streams. I had a buddy had a half dozen or so. All over 35 pounds! Some almost 24" carapace length. Here is the turtle, they breed naturally in folks backyards in Florida. The individual hiding under the snake is proably 6" or so, just a yearling really. These are large breeder size adults. ![](http://www.asianturtlenetwork.org/photo_gallery/images_full_size/Heosemys_seized_in_Mondulkiri.jpg)
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2013 13:20:58 GMT -5
It's OK Jim. She sees government as a far more credible source of information than even the papers she herself quotes. edis.ifas.ufl.edu/in576
is the same paper she gave us earlier from a different webpage. It quotes my scientist Vetter 4 times!! Vetter RS. (11 June 2003). Causes of necrotic wounds other than brown recluse spider bites. University of California, Riverside, Entomology Insect Information, Spiders and other Arachnids. spiders.ucr.edu/necrotic.html (27 June 2003).
Vetter RS. 2000. Myth: idiopathic wounds are often due to brown recluse or other spider bites throughout the United States. Western Journal of Medicine 173: 357-358.
Vetter RS, Edwards GB, James LF. 2004. Reports of envenomation by brown recluse spiders (Araneae: Sicariidae) outnumber verifications of Loxosceles spiders in Florida. Journal of Medical Entomology 41: 593-597.
Vetter RS, Visscher PK. 1998. Bites and stings of medically important venomous arthropods. International Journal of Dermatology 37: 481-496.
The paper she refers also calls into question the medical validity of the "spider bite" diagnosis Alternatives to Consider in Suspected Cases of Brown Recluse Bite
Spider bites cause clean infarctions in the skin.
If an inflammatory core lesion exists, necrotizing infection should be anticipated, not spider bite.
A number of other arthropods and an assortment of diseases, some caused by microorganisms and some with other causes, are known to produce necrotic or apparent pre-necrotic wounds. Vetter (1998) gives a list of causative agents of necrotic wounds (related discussion can be found at the associated Web site).
This list includes most of the following conditions:
Tick-induced: tick bites and tick-borne diseases, such as erythema chronicum migrans (Lyme disease) and Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever;
Viral: chronic herpes simplex, infected herpes simplex, herpes zoster (shingles);
Bacterial: Gonococcal (G.C.) arthritis dermatitis, Mycobacterium ulcerans, Staphylococcus infection, Streptococcus infection;
Fungal: keratin cell mediated response to a fungus, sporotrichosis;
Blood Disorders: focal vasiculitis, purpura fulminans, thromboembolic phenomena;
Underlying Disease States: diabetic ulcer, chronic liver disease (spontaneous necrotizing fasciitis), pyoderma gangrenosum, toxic epidermal necrolysis (Lyells syndrome);
Cancer: leukemia, lymphomatoid papulosis (LyP), lymphoma;
Reaction to Drugs/toxins: alcoholism, erythema nodosum, warfarin and heparin poisoning;
Topical: chemical burn (e.g., oven cleaner), poison ivy/oak infection;
Miscellaneous/ Multiple Causative: bed sores, erythema multiforme, Stevens-Johnson syndrome, self-inflicted wounds;
Unknown Causative Agents: periarteritis nodosa. Yet she still considers this proof of spider bite envenomation. Her own evidence clearly concludes that my point is correct. That is that spiders and specially the recluse spiders are not the source of all these diagnosis of spider bites. Her source of data is from Florida. That source cites my California researcher. It is good enough for Florida authorities but not Helen. She see it differently. So be it. Jim, it's really OK by me. Hey Helen, The USDA seems to be preparing a program. It's called "To Serve Man". The plan seems to put government workers at the beckon call of all humans in the USA. They promise to show you the documentation once you enter the "Human Services Center". They are building these HSC's all over the US. Once inside the workers will present you with the documentation. They will soon begin marketing this program heavily in Republican neighborhoods. They promise to provide for all our earthly needs. I won't be going. I'll take care of myself. Surely, you will see the wisdom and attend the inaugural meetings. Be careful, I hear the documentation is actually a cookbook. edited for readability.
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