jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Aug 6, 2013 12:48:52 GMT -5
I have been busy painting a picture hint for the fragrance plant and whale crap expert. About the most common fragrance on earth. LOL
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Aug 6, 2013 12:56:42 GMT -5
![](http://www.forestryimages.org/images//192x128/5427958.jpg) is native to the pine flatwoods, palmetto prairies and possibly open fields and scrubby areas across southern and south-central Florida, spreading up the Florida west coast to near Homosassa Springs in the central half of Florida. It is an excellent native flowering plant with beautiful smallish (descip of blooms) poking up from the saw palmettos, with a widely spaced overstory of slash or longleaf pines, allowing a high-to- medium amount of sunlight through. A great flowering native plant that may attract pollinating insects or butterflies!
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Aug 6, 2013 13:26:43 GMT -5
google it" has been done before posting here. A source for this plant is not as easy to find as one might think. Finding information on the plant is easy but finding the actual plant or seeds has been unsucessful so far. That is why I posted the query here to get some help locating seeds or a live plant. With all do respect "google it" is not much help in this situation.
RUTROW
another name for it? Perhaps that's a different plant entirely, but I wonder if there's been a recent renaming of it
RUTROW again
I'd like to purchase some seeds and or plants. My family were old-time harvesters of yyyyyyyyy. Sold to traveling salesmen. Good for xxxxxxxxxxxxx, allergies, and fever. Have Pay Pal. Thank you.
component of after shaves cologne perfume
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rockpickerforever
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Post by rockpickerforever on Aug 6, 2013 13:42:40 GMT -5
vanillaleaf Carphephorus odoratissimus
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Aug 6, 2013 13:49:30 GMT -5
Yeah Jean !! You are a genius!
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Post by helens on Aug 6, 2013 13:50:57 GMT -5
Hrm. It might have a medicinal use, but that particular plant has no perfumery use that I can find. The closest perfumery plant I can think of would be gentianacea and that's not it. Then there's of course sweet flag, but that's just iris.
Maybe the old guy got confused, and thought he was picking comfrey, which it resembles without the hairy leaves, or green gentian, which it also resembles. Speaking of which, neither are used in perfumery. Dunno, but I think it's a case of mistaken ID, tho it probably does have a medicinal use.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Aug 6, 2013 14:00:12 GMT -5
Nobody is confused Helen. Jean just named it. It is vanillaleaf or deertongue or carphephorus odoratissimus or Trilisa odoratissima(old name).
It is a member of the astor family as is dandelion as Tela mentioned. It is also used a tobacco/pipe tobacco supplement.
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Post by helens on Aug 6, 2013 14:08:19 GMT -5
Deertongue has no perfumery use... vanilla absolute is used in perfumery, and that's directly derived from the vanilla bean. A similar vanilla fragrance for perfumery is derived from the Tonka bean, and yet another is Peru Balsam, which these days is illegal for perfume use.
What deer tongue was used to fragrance (based on what I just read) was tobacco leaves, which makes sense, since a liquid or resin wouldn't be as useful in a dried smokable form as a dried leaf.
Vanilla absolute is so strong that even diluted at 1/100, it's overpowering in a blend. There's never a need for a vanilla substitute when you can use vanilla. It's just pricey, but at the prices of perfume, that's a pittance.
That leaves me wondering even more why your man was hunting it in the woods for the leaves and not the plant (to propagate for seeds). Maybe he cures his own tobacco and wants to use it for his own stash?
Vanilla fragrance can come from so many sources (not the least of which is from the bean itself, which these days is gettinc cheaper and cheaper with commercial processing), you don't ever need to go searching through the woods for a rare fragrance.
I think his selling it in Europe may be for novelty or medicinal sake, if that story is true. No perfumery, even the purists who would buy effleurage jasmine or tuberose would pay the price for a rare plant collector to get it from the wild leaf by leaf.
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Post by helens on Aug 6, 2013 14:23:32 GMT -5
Aha! It contains coumarin... that IS a perfume component. However, coumarin is a pretty simple to synthesize fragrance component, so only natural perfumery purists would try to extract natural coumarin. But if they wanted to, they can get it from the Tonka Bean, which is the original perfumery source for coumarin.
The scent is most like 'new mown hay'... which you can also extract from a lot of basic grasses. Again... still can't figure out why anyone would want to collect it for perfumery use, that makes NO sense, as the plant contains nothing unique, and what it does contain is available in far larger quantities from other plants.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2013 15:19:46 GMT -5
Where the %#$%%%&^ have you been Berkelite BOY? Touring universities with kidlet. Awesome trip! Stanford (her lofty goal) is amazing. Like the Disneyland of Universities. They have everything. Perfectly kept grounds, gorgeous architecture, the greatest minds the world can offer.... Enough money that anyone who is accepted gets in no matter the financial situation... it's free if parents make little money.... like me! lol UC Davis has a absolutely gorgeous campus. Berkeley too. The urban setting and all the homeless and mentally diseased seemingly LIVING on campus ruins it for me. Berkeley is the Mecca for liberal politics. That is clear. Gasoline is almost $ 5 a gallon! Two miles away in an other city it's a normal $3.70ish. wow
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Aug 6, 2013 15:30:57 GMT -5
Sounds like it is time to dig into the wallet Scott. You will make the decision or will the school?
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panamark
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Post by panamark on Aug 6, 2013 15:45:48 GMT -5
The only vertebrate fish I know of that can voluntarily empty its stomach contents to eliminate indigestibles are sharks. Actually, marlin (and other billfish) very frequently evert their stomachs when they are caught and fought during sport fishing. Usually the hook is only in their jaw when they do this, so technically it is "voluntary". Scientists believe it is a natural behavior to help eject troublesome bones, etc. they may ingest. And when you can ingest whole a 50 lb tuna, there will naturally be some bone issues. When they get a hook in their jaw they probably "think" this might be a bone and try this natural act?? Anyway, it is a very similar action to when shark evert their stomachs. Sorry to continue sideways on this thread ![8-)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/cool.png)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2013 15:51:31 GMT -5
My memory sucks but this is close. The higher ups at the University of California spent between one million and two million on travel in a matter of four years. Flying first class and staying in five star hotels. It is illegal for them to fly first class unless they have a letter from a doctor that they have to. I believe it was like, five out of seven people that have their travel paid for have a doctors letter. It is amazing that five out of seven people in one little group would have a medical problem that requires a first class seat. Soooo, I guess it isn't just the gubment, there is me, me, me everywhere.
All that and very few kids can afford to go there because they have jacked the costs way up. Boggles my mind that people can deny kids an education because they want (expect) luxury. This country is imploding from all sides and it is hard telling where all the bricks will fall. I would like to be here to see it but then again I am glad I will be gone unless I live to 85 or 90 which is very unlikely. If I do live that long I probably won't know a shoe from a hat. Jim
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Aug 6, 2013 15:55:13 GMT -5
I have dug and sold deer tongue. I forgot what it looked like. It was years ago. The leaves are much smaller here in Georgia due to lessor quality growing conditions I suppose. I have seen a lot of plants come and go and performed taxonomy for PHD's in Horticulture many times. Only because no one wants to do wetland plants. Ha-who wants to spend time in mud and snake crap. I do like to search for special orders and often get the business because I know where it is or more likely what it is. Deer tongue was a very familiar plant but it deceived me well. Many species appear as seedlings in pots and around the nursery often being the recipient of Roundup or compost bin. Oh well. It almost got the best of me. Jean-well done. Helen-back to plant books and admit to failure. It is good for your character. Falling into denial is no way to go.
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rockpickerforever
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Post by rockpickerforever on Aug 6, 2013 15:55:36 GMT -5
That's okay, Mark. Actually, when I said that it was going sideways, it was on the old car topic. People talking about things they know absolutely nothing about ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) . So let's just see how many ways we can keep twisting this puppy!
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Aug 6, 2013 15:57:14 GMT -5
Mackeral can dump the contents of their stomach too. Yuck
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Aug 6, 2013 16:00:22 GMT -5
Deer tongue for sale!! Listen to the young Doctor below! www.pennherb.com/deers-tongueDeer's Tongue is a plant that grows in the southeastern United States. Its dried leaves have a delightful fragrance similar to Vanilla, hence its other common name Vanilla Leaf. For this reason, it is primarily used in herbal potpourris and sachets. Deer's Tongue, Cut, 16oz. Item Number 139c16 Was: $45.00 DISCOUNT: 22% OFF! Save: $10.00 $35.00 Add To Cart Search for more sizes and options More in category: Herbs
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Post by rockjunquie on Aug 6, 2013 16:37:58 GMT -5
YAY! Good for Jean for figuring it out! Did you collect any yourself? Bet you will next time- if only to dry it and smell it out of curiosity. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) I must admit... I'm rather intrigued myself.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Aug 6, 2013 17:15:30 GMT -5
He gave me those leaves in the photo Tela and I dried them in the car. When they wilt they start to put out fragrance. And they did. I had collected it before. It grows next to chasmanthium latifolium (like sea oats but river oats) in muddy flood plains in middle Georgia and they look alike during collection time in early spring. You may have seen sea oats on the dunes on the coast. They planted the dunes to mitigate them from us VW powered dune buggy people that wore the dunes down. That is paniculata but looks exactly like latifolium ![](http://images1.americanlisted.com/nlarge/1967_vw_fiberglass_dunebuggy_30483467.jpg) Sea oats ![](http://www.accuratecolor.net/Color%20Tuneup/Sea-Oats.jpg)
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Post by vegasjames on Aug 6, 2013 18:46:19 GMT -5
Technically, you are right, the ambergris comes from a secretion produced from whale intestines (sperm whales) that protect their stomach/intestines from pointy squid beaks. It could come out either end. My understanding is that it is more frequently vomited simply because of whale anatomy. This is an interesting article about the question (that doesn't really answer the question): www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/interviews/interview/2055/My understanding of whale physiology is that when they 'poop' due to the lengths of their intestines, what is expelled is a smelly brown liquid (think diarrhea). Ambergris is vomited as a soft solid, and requires decades of floating around in the ocean to purify into a nice smelling pale lump (white/grey being most valuable), rather than a foul smelling dark slimy poop smelling substance, most of which is decayed phytoplankton residue (think fish emulsion), with minimal ambrein. I would imagine comparable to human stomach bile. You will get a whole lot more pure green bile from vomiting than you will from collecting poop. Tho you would certainly get some in the poop. Bile doesn't get hard and chunky, but if it did, and the excrement portion were dissolved out, you'd have a smaller chunk in poop than in vomit. Thus ambergris is called vomit. When you say you're making synthetic ambergris... I've got several 'synthetic' versions of ambergris... one from a musk ambrette seed tincture I made (pft, not very fresh seeds, so it's not very strong), amber resin tincture (not very ambergrisy- more like deer musk), and 2 chem-synths, from Givaudan and IFF... both of which are simply ozony. There is no substitute today for real ambergris for longevity and the elusive scent elements, though some think they are close to the scent component that I know of. That said, I'm interested in your synthetic... the only thing that I know of that we can naturally make that takes a year to mellow (or much longer) is an orris root concoction (doesn't smell like ambergris, but is lovely and green and another great fixative). Is that what you make? The article never did really answer the question. But another thing that would point to the fact that the ambergris is defecated is the fact that ambergris has been collected directly from the lower intestines in whales. This has a lot to do with the international ban of ambergris in most countries. It is to help prevent whales from being killed just to collect the ambergris from their intestines. As far as the synthesis I am working on this is not using plant oils. There is more involved in the fixative properties of ambergris. My focus has not been as much on the smell as it is on the fixative properties. I know exactly why ambergris is such a strong fixative, which I will not get in to since I want to protect my invention. This will last on the skin unlike the plant oil "ambergris". And yes, the ambergris does normally take years to harden and mellow out in to the preferably white material that brings the most money. But it is easy to speed up that process so that it no longer takes years. I let mine sit for a little over a year, which is much longer than I needed to. But I was busy with so many projects that I had forgotten I had the jar buried in the back yard. When I did it back up it had already hardened in to a solid mass and the smell had finally mellowed considerably. I washed the material off and got some on my hands accidentally in the process. It was very hard to get rid of the smell on my hands and took days of washing. So it is definitely acting as a fixative. And the smell is in the ballpark. But I have to finish the final treatment to lighten the material up, but I have been off on other projects again so have not worked on it recently.
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