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Post by vegasjames on Aug 6, 2013 19:02:06 GMT -5
No. The smell is not easy. And I spoke for a while w/the about 65 year old man. I did not want to ask too much because he was very intent on his collecting and felt like I would be prying. When he left I looked for them and they were hard to find. They grow in same enviro as carnivorous plants(sarracenia). All that does not help a bit. That plant is clearly photographed but will be a challenge to ID. No one wants to perform taxonomy on wetland plants. In the first photo you put up the stems had red at the base, but I don't see the red on the second photo. Are you sure these are the same plant? And any better photos of the flower? The leaf from the first photo in general looks like several water plants including Alisma plantago-aquatica and red stemmed thalia.
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Post by vegasjames on Aug 6, 2013 19:03:39 GMT -5
Hrm. I think I've seen that plant before (with the red leaf base)... had no idea it smelled. Guess I'll take a whiff if I run across it again. If it were commercially valuable... someone would be growing it, not running around looking for it in a field to collect in the wild to dry. Something just seems odd about that, you sure he wasn't digging the whole plant up? Some plants are very difficult to cultivate such as goldenseal or Lady's slipper, which is why they are most often wildcrafted.
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Post by vegasjames on Aug 6, 2013 19:06:06 GMT -5
No, I used to sell plantago too. And it requires much wetter soil. It is not allowed on this farm as it seeds everywhere. Try again. There are various species of plantago. For example, there are several species that are common lawn weeds and so do not need really wet soil. A good pic of the actual flower would help the most.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Aug 6, 2013 19:23:38 GMT -5
No. The smell is not easy. And I spoke for a while w/the about 65 year old man. I did not want to ask too much because he was very intent on his collecting and felt like I would be prying. When he left I looked for them and they were hard to find. They grow in same enviro as carnivorous plants(sarracenia). All that does not help a bit. That plant is clearly photographed but will be a challenge to ID. No one wants to perform taxonomy on wetland plants. In the first photo you put up the stems had red at the base, but I don't see the red on the second photo. Are you sure these are the same plant? And any better photos of the flower? The leaf from the first photo in general looks like several water plants including Alisma plantago-aquatica and red stemmed thalia. No similarity whatsoever. I could not confuse thalia, alisma plantago, and deer tongue. The veins quickly give each variety up alone. Much less their shape. Much less their size, stalks. Rarely are blooms available when a plant needs to be identified. So ya gotta put down the books use other tactics. And the first photo is clearly deer tongue.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Aug 6, 2013 19:29:36 GMT -5
No, I used to sell plantago too. And it requires much wetter soil. It is not allowed on this farm as it seeds everywhere. Try again. There are various species of plantago. For example, there are several species that are common lawn weeds and so do not need really wet soil. A good pic of the actual flower would help the most. OK , alismo plantago aquatic. Real world ID is normally done w/out flower. Would be nice to have it but...
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Aug 6, 2013 19:32:07 GMT -5
Deer tongue simply from google images
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Post by vegasjames on Aug 6, 2013 19:35:50 GMT -5
vanillaleaf Carphephorus odoratissimus Are you sure? The original post said it was in the bogs. Vanilla leaf does not tolerate really wet conditions. It grows in somewhat moist soils. One way to help identify it for sure would be to dry some of the plant. As I mentioned earlier these types of plants contain coumarins that give a vanilla scent upon drying.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Aug 6, 2013 19:45:50 GMT -5
He gave me those leaves in the photo Tela and I dried them in the car. When they wilt they start to put out fragrance. And they did. I had collected it before. It grows next to chasmanthium latifolium (like sea oats but river oats) in muddy flood plains in middle Georgia and they look alike during collection time in early spring. You may have seen sea oats on the dunes on the coast. They planted the dunes to mitigate them from us VW powered dune buggy people that wore the dunes down. That is paniculata but looks exactly like latifolium Sea oats I did test the fragrance as mentioned earlier. If I get an order for 5000 of these I will not look further at ID issues. Action time. Time to dig. I am right. You will just have to trust me.
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Post by vegasjames on Aug 6, 2013 20:01:41 GMT -5
Nobody is confused Helen. Jean just named it. It is vanillaleaf or deertongue or carphephorus odoratissimus or Trilisa odoratissima(old name). It is a member of the astor family as is dandelion as Tela mentioned. It is also used a tobacco/pipe tobacco supplement. That looks nothing like the vanilla leaf "deer's tongue" we have on the west coast. The vanilla leaf I have seen in Northern California has three leaves. Look up Achlys triphylla.
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Post by vegasjames on Aug 6, 2013 20:16:02 GMT -5
Deertongue has no perfumery use... vanilla absolute is used in perfumery, and that's directly derived from the vanilla bean. A similar vanilla fragrance for perfumery is derived from the Tonka bean, and yet another is Peru Balsam, which these days is illegal for perfume use. What deer tongue was used to fragrance (based on what I just read) was tobacco leaves, which makes sense, since a liquid or resin wouldn't be as useful in a dried smokable form as a dried leaf. Vanilla absolute is so strong that even diluted at 1/100, it's overpowering in a blend. There's never a need for a vanilla substitute when you can use vanilla. It's just pricey, but at the prices of perfume, that's a pittance. That leaves me wondering even more why your man was hunting it in the woods for the leaves and not the plant (to propagate for seeds). Maybe he cures his own tobacco and wants to use it for his own stash? Vanilla fragrance can come from so many sources (not the least of which is from the bean itself, which these days is gettinc cheaper and cheaper with commercial processing), you don't ever need to go searching through the woods for a rare fragrance. I think his selling it in Europe may be for novelty or medicinal sake, if that story is true. No perfumery, even the purists who would buy effleurage jasmine or tuberose would pay the price for a rare plant collector to get it from the wild leaf by leaf. I use to have an essential oil catalog with some very exotic essential oils including mistletoe and deer's tongue. Coumarin containing plants are added to some tobaccos, especially some pipe tobaccos, which is why you get that sweet vanilla scent in many pipe tobaccos. I think they primarily use sweet clover though, which is so easy to grow that it grows as a weed in Northern Nevada. The plant stinks when fresh, but develops a really pleasant vanilla aroma when dried from the coumarins. You can also get vanilla oleoresin, which I have friends who use this straight as a very pleasant perfume. By the way, there is Peruvian balsam and balsam Peru, which have very different smells and consistencies. I have both and love to use both of them, but Peruvian balsam is much harder to work with since it looks like Hershey's chocolate syrup but is significantly more sticky. It does have a really nice earthy-vanilla scent.
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Post by vegasjames on Aug 6, 2013 20:24:21 GMT -5
Aha! It contains coumarin... that IS a perfume component. However, coumarin is a pretty simple to synthesize fragrance component, so only natural perfumery purists would try to extract natural coumarin. But if they wanted to, they can get it from the Tonka Bean, which is the original perfumery source for coumarin. The scent is most like 'new mown hay'... which you can also extract from a lot of basic grasses. Again... still can't figure out why anyone would want to collect it for perfumery use, that makes NO sense, as the plant contains nothing unique, and what it does contain is available in far larger quantities from other plants. Several things to keep in mind. One is that a lot of people do not like, nor will they use synthetic fragrances. For example, you can buy an ounce of synthetic jasmine oil for about $15.00. An ounce of real jasmine oil is about $300.00. But I have seen people pay the price for an ounce of real jasmine oil because they did not want a synthetic. And yes, there are numerous sources of coumarins for a vanilla scent including sweet clover, woodruff, vanilla bean, vanilla grass, sweet grass, zizyphus, carrots, angelica, etc. But I think part of it is simply marketing. People are more apt to pay a higher price for something sounding more exotic like "deer's tongue". People are not going to pay as much for sweet clover since many will think they are paying for a common component of hay. Coumarins are widely used in perfume making though.
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Post by vegasjames on Aug 6, 2013 20:28:18 GMT -5
The only vertebrate fish I know of that can voluntarily empty its stomach contents to eliminate indigestibles are sharks. Actually, marlin (and other billfish) very frequently evert their stomachs when they are caught and fought during sport fishing. Usually the hook is only in their jaw when they do this, so technically it is "voluntary". Scientists believe it is a natural behavior to help eject troublesome bones, etc. they may ingest. And when you can ingest whole a 50 lb tuna, there will naturally be some bone issues. When they get a hook in their jaw they probably "think" this might be a bone and try this natural act?? Anyway, it is a very similar action to when shark evert their stomachs. Sorry to continue sideways on this thread Interesting, I did not know that about billfish. I forgot about eels also. They don't actually stretch their stomach out of their mouth like sharks though. They literally tie themselves in to a knot and slide the knot up their body to squeeze out their stomach contents when needed to make themselves smaller and more maneuverable.
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Post by helens on Aug 6, 2013 20:30:14 GMT -5
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Post by vegasjames on Aug 6, 2013 20:32:47 GMT -5
In the first photo you put up the stems had red at the base, but I don't see the red on the second photo. Are you sure these are the same plant? And any better photos of the flower? The leaf from the first photo in general looks like several water plants including Alisma plantago-aquatica and red stemmed thalia. No similarity whatsoever. I could not confuse thalia, alisma plantago, and deer tongue. The veins quickly give each variety up alone. Much less their shape. Much less their size, stalks. Rarely are blooms available when a plant needs to be identified. So ya gotta put down the books use other tactics. And the first photo is clearly deer tongue. You are missing my point. In the first photo there are clearly red stems. In the second photo I cannot see any red in the stems, nor in your photo from Google below, which is why I was questioning if the pics were taken of the same plant.
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Post by vegasjames on Aug 6, 2013 20:40:17 GMT -5
Ambrein is not the only fixative in ambergris, nor do I think it is the strongest fixative in it. The scientists are overlooking another major component. The "poop" was created in large part by simulating the whale's diet and artificially digesting the material. I have not done a lot with skunk other to collect the road kill to make Native American art. I think you are on to something though. Skunk odor is pretty hard to simply wash off with soap and water. Have you checked Ebay for skunk juice? You can find everything else on there.
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Post by helens on Aug 6, 2013 20:51:26 GMT -5
Aha! It contains coumarin... that IS a perfume component. However, coumarin is a pretty simple to synthesize fragrance component, so only natural perfumery purists would try to extract natural coumarin. But if they wanted to, they can get it from the Tonka Bean, which is the original perfumery source for coumarin. The scent is most like 'new mown hay'... which you can also extract from a lot of basic grasses. Again... still can't figure out why anyone would want to collect it for perfumery use, that makes NO sense, as the plant contains nothing unique, and what it does contain is available in far larger quantities from other plants. Several things to keep in mind. One is that a lot of people do not like, nor will they use synthetic fragrances. For example, you can buy an ounce of synthetic jasmine oil for about $15.00. An ounce of real jasmine oil is about $300.00. But I have seen people pay the price for an ounce of real jasmine oil because they did not want a synthetic. And yes, there are numerous sources of coumarins for a vanilla scent including sweet clover, woodruff, vanilla bean, vanilla grass, sweet grass, zizyphus, carrots, angelica, etc. But I think part of it is simply marketing. People are more apt to pay a higher price for something sounding more exotic like "deer's tongue". People are not going to pay as much for sweet clover since many will think they are paying for a common component of hay. Coumarins are widely used in perfume making though. People DO pay the big bucks for 'hay' EO (well, absolute). It's one of the most sought after absolutes on earth. Hay absolute is $100 wholesale right now, if you can find it... way pricier than most EO, including EO like galbanum. Speaking of hay absolute, that's actually one of the handful I don't have. I've got 2 fridges of EO, you are talking to a 35 year EO hoarder. The only EO that go bad quickly are tea tree, Lavender and the citruses. ALL the resins and absolutes can last decades... centuries in some cases (they found still fragrant spikenard in King Tut's tomb). In most cases, they are worth more and smell better the older they are (like whale vomit, tho this is true for all the fixatives. Old orris root is OMFG).
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Post by helens on Aug 6, 2013 21:04:27 GMT -5
Ambrein is composite ambrox and ambrinol once oxidized. There's no other fixative or scent component in ambergris... that's why it's easy to synthesize.
James, how do you synthesize ambergris with the diet (plankton and rotting fish) without the ambergris stomach extrudation?
As for skunk, if you live in an area where you can get a dead skunk, cut out the gland and bury it next to your whale simulation and see what happens!!!! I can't get a skunk to try it!!! As for Ebay, they have skunk bait, skunk lures, skunk destinker, but no actual skunk juice. My understanding is that working with the substance directly for any length of time knocks you out. Thus the suggestion to bury it for a few months/years first:P.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Aug 6, 2013 21:30:34 GMT -5
a
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Post by vegasjames on Aug 6, 2013 22:16:58 GMT -5
Ambrein is composite ambrox and ambrinol once oxidized. There's no other fixative or scent component in ambergris... that's why it's easy to synthesize. James, how do you synthesize ambergris with the diet (plankton and rotting fish) without the ambergris stomach extrudation? As for skunk, if you live in an area where you can get a dead skunk, cut out the gland and bury it next to your whale simulation and see what happens!!!! I can't get a skunk to try it!!! As for Ebay, they have skunk bait, skunk lures, skunk destinker, but no actual skunk juice. My understanding is that working with the substance directly for any length of time knocks you out. Thus the suggestion to bury it for a few months/years first:P. Again I have to disagree that ambrein is the only fixative. There is another one they are overlooking. That is why the stuff I made is acting as a fixative even though there is no ambrein in it since I did not use a whale to make it. As for the synthesis the only real difference is that I am not able to recreate the intestinal secretion from the whale's digestive system. Otherwise the rest was very easy to replicate and again the ambrein is not the only fixative in ambergris. Scientists commonly get tunnel vision when it comes to finding the "'active " component in something. As an example, just look at how pharmaceutical drugs are made. The researchers isolate a single substance to utilize or synthesize while ignoring all the other active and synergistic components.
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robsrockshop
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Post by robsrockshop on Aug 6, 2013 23:54:56 GMT -5
I'm convinced it will taste better with french salad dressing.
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