jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jan 15, 2016 17:53:14 GMT -5
Apparently the smaller the grit the longer it lasts. Used a good bit of it in the rotary. Reuse makes perfect sense. Only 2 tablespoons in the 14 Viking. Guessing one tablespoon would do the job. Maybe not enough to recycle. bushmanbilly posted an article discussing that less can be better when it comes to polish. I have been adding the 2 tablespoons of Borax the last day of the AO 500 run in the vibe and boy does it make the sugar easy to clean off the rocks. And still imparts the luster to the finish. Another question, if it takes two weeks to break 16 down in the 5 gallon and say 4 weeks in the 1 3/4, do the rocks receive the same amount of shaping. -OR- does the big barrel grind your rocks faster compared to 1 3/4 ?
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Tom
fully equipped rock polisher
My dad Tom suddenly passed away yesterday, Just wanted his "rock" family to know.
Member since January 2013
Posts: 1,557
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Post by Tom on Jan 15, 2016 19:44:43 GMT -5
Sir James, You are the mad scientist of rock tumbling! Fantastic shine and so much less hassle for people that are rolling tones of rock. Great work. May I purchase a frame for this statement Tom ? I do get frustrated with set process/method if there is a better/easier way. Perhaps this is such a situation. No purchase necessary, free frame you deserve it.
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Tom
fully equipped rock polisher
My dad Tom suddenly passed away yesterday, Just wanted his "rock" family to know.
Member since January 2013
Posts: 1,557
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Post by Tom on Jan 15, 2016 19:55:03 GMT -5
This looks like a capacitor discharge curve, its based on the natural logarithm (LOG e). Many many many things in nature decay or increase following this asymptotic curve. I would certainly suspect you are correct on grit breakdown following this curve rather than the more simple "breaks down to half its size every two days" or whatever that rule is. MATH RULES!
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quartz
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breakin' rocks in the hot sun
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Post by quartz on Jan 16, 2016 0:18:45 GMT -5
I quit running 16 grit in the 1 3/4 barrel, shapes O.K. but won't break down completely, even running 4-6 weeks. Becomes uneconomical in terms of power cost. Next grit trip to Portland I'm going to get some in the 30-40 range to try in the smaller barrel, think it will work better.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jan 16, 2016 7:30:38 GMT -5
This looks like a capacitor discharge curve, its based on the natural logarithm (LOG e). Many many many things in nature decay or increase following this asymptotic curve. I would certainly suspect you are correct on grit breakdown following this curve rather than the more simple "breaks down to half its size every two days" or whatever that rule is. MATH RULES! Process and nature, electrical and mechanical systems do follow such curves Tom. Actually the majority of the time as opposed to straight line/linear trends. Unfortunately the math to describe such nonlinear situations gets complicated on an exponential scale too. I think that is a capacitor discharge graph. The beauty of analogy. Mechanical guys have to spend a year designing a system that weighs 20 tons and may have a dozen mathematical relationships. Electrical guys can spend a week making a 10 ounce circuit card that has 100 mathematical relationships. Take a guess at which one has to be the far better mathematician. You guys know you are smarter than us LOL. However, if we are off on calculations 20 tons has to be chunked and a year wasted and we get fired.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jan 16, 2016 8:19:30 GMT -5
I quit running 16 grit in the 1 3/4 barrel, shapes O.K. but won't break down completely, even running 4-6 weeks. Becomes uneconomical in terms of power cost. Next grit trip to Portland I'm going to get some in the 30-40 range to try in the smaller barrel, think it will work better. Is that a 1 3/4 gallon barrel ? Like a Lortone 12 pound ? Say 6 inches in diameter ? The only reason I ask is I run 6 inch PVC and find that the 30 grit breaks down quickly and even with a thickened slurry. Grit breakdown was effected by the rock size, shape and mix. 1) If the barrel was filled with all lightweight flat coral chips the grind and grit breakdown is much slower. (learned to use a mix of sizes). The coral chips are a regular tumble. Learned not to put round rocks larger than 1.25 inches in with them to avoid edge chipping unless slurry was thickened. Need at least 40% round or chunky rocks to do the chips. 2) Tumbled a bunch of San Jacincto round/oval pebbles all 1-2 inches in size with no smalls. They acted like a ball mill and broke down the grit real fast. Must say, it was a fast grind. And the sun burnt outer layer was removed quickly. Similar to tumbling Rio Grande pebbles but they have more fractures and pits on the outer layer and must grind longer. And then category 3), this category frustrates me, and a subject in itself 3) Hammer broken agate that is odd shaped chunks with divots and sharp edges takes longest to tumble. There was a rock shop in N Atlanta years ago that sold tumble stock. He ran agate thru an old flat head 4 cylinder powered rock crusher. Man those were crappy tumbles. Granted the right size, but awful shapes to grind smooth. I think a lot of purchase tumbles are broken in similar crushers. Most of them spring backed flat plate crushers. Georgia king of gravel and they use such crushers on granite. In a line, they feed rip-rap(dynamited chunks), then surge 6-8 inches, and the #1 #2 #4 #5 etc #57 is common road gravel 3/4-1 inch. A series of crushers with spring backed plates 20 inches apart and down to #11-- 1/2 inch apart to make pea gravel. I hate tumbling machine crushed agates/rocks. Better to buy chunks and reduce them yourself. Take Mcdermitt wood, it breaks up very nicely. Glassy gates too. Beach and river rounded make great fodder. Forgive the rant, but good starting stock makes tumbling a lot more satisfying.
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quartz
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breakin' rocks in the hot sun
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Post by quartz on Jan 16, 2016 23:36:59 GMT -5
The 1 3/4 gallon barrel set is the octagon ones I sent you a pic. of a couple years ago; 7" across flats on inside, 10" long inside. To us, there's another aspect to tumbling really rough, jagged stuff, the challenge of it. That's part of the game for us, but we do have our limits.
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Post by MrP on Jan 17, 2016 7:43:53 GMT -5
I have been using the ingawh 2 step and find it to be great. With using a UV45 it sure makes the process much easier. Not so many clean outs.....................MrP I remember ingwah mentioned a friend that tumbles commercially using a real coarse grit and letting them roll till the grit broke down to nothing. Then to the vibe with a single grit run I believe. Seems that she got her 2 step from him. I personally am frustrated that I used so many different grades of grit in the past. Four 20 pound barrels and 4 or 5 grades of grit before I got a vibe. Used to be too much work. Too much cleanliness. More chances of contamination. A tumbler running for a week longer is serious attack on any left over oversized particles. Two weeks and SiC 30 grit is crushed to at least 400. Has to be, otherwise the last step of AO 500 in the vibe would have never formed a polish. What two grits are you using MrP ? jamesp I have only been using this in my UV tumblers tumbling pendants, earrings, and slabs, so I am using 220 sic and 600 AO. Before I would use 220 Sic, 500 Sic, 600 AO, 800 AO, pre-polish SPA3 micron alumina, and finished with TXP micron alumina. I did a complete clean-out and super rinse pulse I would run them in the tumbler with Dawn soap and water for an hour between each stage. ingawh has saved me a ton of work with I think the same results.
I did have a batch of red glass pendants and earrings that it did not work on. I ran the batch 3 times and they would come out with a film on them so I went through my old process but they still would not shine. Had to finish on the Genie. I think it was just that glass because I have made and tumbled many colors of glass pendants and earrings that have taken a great shine with the 2-step.
This summer when I fire up my rotary tumblers I will be going from 60-90 to 600 AO.
Also with my UV45 I will run 3-4 batches in 220 Sic before I do a complete clean-out. Large tumblers are great but clean-outs are a lot of work..................MrP
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,562
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Post by jamesp on Jan 17, 2016 8:15:02 GMT -5
The 1 3/4 gallon barrel set is the octagon ones I sent you a pic. of a couple years ago; 7" across flats on inside, 10" long inside. To us, there's another aspect to tumbling really rough, jagged stuff, the challenge of it. That's part of the game for us, but we do have our limits. I remember that barrel. Real heavy duty, octagon that you angle cut out of heavy black plastic and bolted together I believe. Artisan barrel, life expectancy +200 years . For real, tumbling rough jagged stuff another whole world. Add grit cost. Challenge it is. If you have a giant pile to cherry pick good tumbles it sure would help. The easiest tumble on earth was those snakeskin's. Zero failure. I hope you saved a bunch of those for yourselves. Denise stole them and decorated her cherished window in front of her computer with them. Talk about front and center, nothing but the finest gets that location. Not one tumbled coral...LOL
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jan 17, 2016 8:31:33 GMT -5
Good on you MrP. Yes, a lot of vibe steps Inga has saved you. The vibe a great device. Now a 45 pound one is a real hoss. Has to be a serious labor reduction. It appears that AO 500-600 is the last needed step in the vibe for well prepared rocks. Run that last 60/90 a couple of weeks. If you can pull a rock and look at the glare at a sharp angle and see a shine the 220 step is done. I suppose you could do 60/90 in the rotary and then straight to the vibe with AO 600 would be a 2 step. I have never gotten my rotary to take AO 500 to a wet shine, but close. Always had to run a 14,000 polish.
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Post by MrP on Jan 17, 2016 9:52:43 GMT -5
Good on you MrP . Yes, a lot of vibe steps Inga has saved you. The vibe a great device. Now a 45 pound one is a real hoss. Has to be a serious labor reduction. It appears that AO 500-600 is the last needed step in the vibe for well prepared rocks. Run that last 60/90 a couple of weeks. If you can pull a rock and look at the glare at a sharp angle and see a shine the 220 step is done. I suppose you could do 60/90 in the rotary and then straight to the vibe with AO 600 would be a 2 step. I have never gotten my rotary to take AO 500 to a wet shine, but close. Always had to run a 14,000 polish. James I always finish in the vibe. Never have finished in the rotary.
On another note I bought another vibe this fall. It is called a Rockette Vibratory Finisher 800 looks like this . It has a rubber liner in it and I have no clue where to find a new one if this one ever wears out. I think it may be a great concept. I have not used it other then throw filler and some slabs in for a 10 min. run. I do like the action I saw.........................MrP
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,562
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Post by jamesp on Jan 17, 2016 10:14:00 GMT -5
I had to post a photo of this beast MrP. Holy cow, looks evil, like a rock torture chamber. Very similar to a Viking with added structure. 1/2 HP motor, oh yea Looks like belt guards on both sides of motor, is that a dual shaft motor like the Viking ? Bet some one would vulcanize the hopper if needed. I think you quite a collection of tumblers. I know you made a Viking hopper out of pipe. Sometime please post your artillery. Do it here if you want. This Rockette tumbler is a show stopper.
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Post by MrP on Jan 17, 2016 13:15:03 GMT -5
I had to post a photo of this beast MrP . Holy cow, looks evil, like a rock torture chamber. Very similar to a Viking with added structure. 1/2 HP motor, oh yea Looks like belt guards on both sides of motor, is that a dual shaft motor like the Viking ? Bet some one would vulcanize the hopper if needed. I think you quite a collection of tumblers. I know you made a Viking hopper out of pipe. Sometime please post your artillery. Do it here if you want. This Rockette tumbler is a show stopper. jamesp The one I bought doesn't look as good as this one but I only gave $75 for it. Yes it is a double ended motor like the Viking. I wish I would have had time to use it this fall but that is how things go. Most of my tumblers and saws are packed in the corner of the garage for winter so maybe this spring I will post some pictures..........................MrP
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jan 17, 2016 14:02:52 GMT -5
Looks like the Rockette in the photo got a serious renovation. $75 is a steal. I wonder if the springs are still available. Springs about always tuned for particular application. Found a spring manufacturing company that taught you how to measure the spring rate and then make them. But they had a big list of stock springs that probably has a duplicate of those on that machine. www.leespring.com/catalog_download.aspLooks like it would hold a good 20-30 pounds.
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quartz
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breakin' rocks in the hot sun
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Post by quartz on Jan 17, 2016 23:59:20 GMT -5
That Rockette is quite a machine, does it have adjustable amplitude like the Viking?
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jan 18, 2016 8:06:46 GMT -5
That Rockette is quite a machine, does it have adjustable amplitude like the Viking? MrP curious minds
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Post by MrP on Jan 18, 2016 8:48:56 GMT -5
That Rockette is quite a machine, does it have adjustable amplitude like the Viking? It does have unbalanced weights like the Viking but they are tight together in the center. I am hoping that maybe with them in the center and the barrel hanging maybe the slabs will not keep moving to one side. I only ran it about 10 minutes and do know that the action is different then the Viking. I have to use it out in the garage because it is as loud as the Viking.............................MrP
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
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Post by jamesp on Jan 18, 2016 11:32:11 GMT -5
That Rockette is quite a machine, does it have adjustable amplitude like the Viking? It does have unbalanced weights like the Viking but they are tight together in the center. I am hoping that maybe with them in the center and the barrel hanging maybe the slabs will not keep moving to one side. I only ran it about 10 minutes and do know that the action is different then the Viking. I have to use it out in the garage because it is as loud as the Viking.............................MrP I tumbled 6 big rocks in the Viking. From golfball to tennis ball and one baseball size. To my surprise they did not pile to one side. Seems that about 2/3 filler in the form of round pea sized quartz pebbles kept them distributed. From Inga's style of tumbling. The rounder the filler the better luck I have had keeping the tumbles spread out evenly from left to right. As if ball bearings assisting in the rolling action.
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Post by MrP on Jan 18, 2016 20:08:02 GMT -5
It does have unbalanced weights like the Viking but they are tight together in the center. I am hoping that maybe with them in the center and the barrel hanging maybe the slabs will not keep moving to one side. I only ran it about 10 minutes and do know that the action is different then the Viking. I have to use it out in the garage because it is as loud as the Viking.............................MrP I tumbled 6 big rocks in the Viking. From golfball to tennis ball and one baseball size. To my surprise they did not pile to one side. Seems that about 2/3 filler in the form of round pea sized quartz pebbles kept them distributed. From Inga's style of tumbling. The rounder the filler the better luck I have had keeping the tumbles spread out evenly from left to right. As if ball bearings assisting in the rolling action. Glad to hear the pea sized quartz made a difference. Can't wait to see how this one works. I do like how the barrel hangs on the springs, it does change the action. May have to change motor bearings first but that is no big deal.................MrP
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jan 18, 2016 22:29:39 GMT -5
Double shaft motors not cheap MrP. Real interesting design, maybe a video is in the future.
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