jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,562
|
Post by jamesp on Jan 14, 2016 5:06:53 GMT -5
This method is working on a regular basis. Works on agates, jaspers, pet wood, and crystalline quartz. It requires little attention and depends on SiC 30 breakdown in a rotary and AO 500 in a vibe. A thick slurry helps to circulate the heavy SiC 30. Thicken at start with clay or used slurry. About 10-12 weekly grit additions were made during the coarse grind in the rotary. No clean outs, just water to thin slurry as needed and grit additions. About every other week. Rocks were run for a few minutes after a water add and excess slurry poured off to just below rock level. Maintained milk shake consistency for slurry. Last 30 grit addition is run for two weeks to break grit down to what must be 400 grit +/-(slight shine at sharp angle). Rocks then removed and cleaned well. Transferred to vibe. Sugar and water added at a rate of 1 cup each for 14 pounds of rock. Vibe run for 4 days with AO 500. Water sometimes added at day 3, only if needed. To clean sugar and final burnish, rocks are cleaned briefly and let drain and put back in vibe wet. Two tablespoons of Borax added and vibe run for 12-24 hours. Do not let Borax dry out. Could be considered step 3, but no abrasives required. Borax leaves a miracle shine. Method seems to work fine with rotary barrel 50% or up to 75% full. Thick slurry allows lower rock level, say barrel at 50-60% full. Having what seems to be faster grind rates with barrel at 50-60% full, even with milk shake consistency slurry. Thick slurry protects rocks from banging when barrel is at 50-60% full. No longer using 220-1000 or final(14,000) polish. Just SiC 30 and AO 500. Borax. Process is not at all like the instructions say. But it works, for me anyway. And has greatly simplified my hassle with so many grits. Before Borax Thick slurry has protected delicate shapes like this on many occasions even when rolling with large rocks. Very thin chips with no chipped edges or fractures An idea of how thin the chips were before tumbling A large percentage of my tumbles have been thin chip as above. It was a challenge to avoid chipped edges in the rotary that do not tumble away. The same protective effect can be had by filling the barrel more. But that slows the grind and grit breakdown. The best solution to my problem was a thicker slurry.
|
|
quartz
Cave Dweller
breakin' rocks in the hot sun
Member since February 2010
Posts: 3,352
|
Post by quartz on Jan 15, 2016 0:55:19 GMT -5
That sure simplifies the process, and with good result.
|
|
herchenx
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2012
Posts: 3,360
|
Post by herchenx on Jan 15, 2016 3:27:30 GMT -5
Always engineering, great results!
|
|
|
Post by MrP on Jan 15, 2016 6:04:48 GMT -5
I have been using the ingawh 2 step and find it to be great. With using a UV45 it sure makes the process much easier. Not so many clean outs.....................MrP
|
|
|
Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Jan 15, 2016 7:36:29 GMT -5
About 10-12 weekly grit additions were made during the coarse grind in the rotary. No clean outs, just water to thin slurry as needed and grit additions. About every other week. Rocks were run for a few minutes after a water add and excess slurry poured off to just below rock level. Maintained milk shake consistency for slurry. Last 30 grit addition is run for two weeks to break grit down to what must be 400 grit +/-(slight shine at sharp angle). So you put your rocks in on day one and those same rocks stay in for 10 to 12 weeks without any clean outs to inspect? You are not pulling rocks each week that are ready to move on which means some rocks might get tumbled 5 or 6 weeks longer then necessary. Pulling rocks that are done early saves grit because that frees up space in the tumbler to add more rocks. If 30% of your rocks were ready after say week six then you might be using up grit by keeping them in another six weeks instead of adding more rough that needs grinding. I do agree with the 4 days in 500 part for vibe tumbling. I was just telling Jugglerguy that I really cant tell the difference sometimes after running the polish. I am stubborn though and just cant sleep well at night if I don't do my polish stage, lol Chuck
|
|
Tom
fully equipped rock polisher
My dad Tom suddenly passed away yesterday, Just wanted his "rock" family to know.
Member since January 2013
Posts: 1,557
|
Post by Tom on Jan 15, 2016 7:40:33 GMT -5
Sir James,
You are the mad scientist of rock tumbling! Fantastic shine and so much less hassle for people that are rolling tones of rock. Great work.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,562
|
Post by jamesp on Jan 15, 2016 7:42:59 GMT -5
I have been using the ingawh 2 step and find it to be great. With using a UV45 it sure makes the process much easier. Not so many clean outs.....................MrP I remember ingwah mentioned a friend that tumbles commercially using a real coarse grit and letting them roll till the grit broke down to nothing. Then to the vibe with a single grit run I believe. Seems that she got her 2 step from him. I personally am frustrated that I used so many different grades of grit in the past. Four 20 pound barrels and 4 or 5 grades of grit before I got a vibe. Used to be too much work. Too much cleanliness. More chances of contamination. A tumbler running for a week longer is serious attack on any left over oversized particles. Two weeks and SiC 30 grit is crushed to at least 400. Has to be, otherwise the last step of AO 500 in the vibe would have never formed a polish. What two grits are you using MrP ?
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,562
|
Post by jamesp on Jan 15, 2016 8:08:52 GMT -5
About 10-12 weekly grit additions were made during the coarse grind in the rotary. No clean outs, just water to thin slurry as needed and grit additions. About every other week. Rocks were run for a few minutes after a water add and excess slurry poured off to just below rock level. Maintained milk shake consistency for slurry. Last 30 grit addition is run for two weeks to break grit down to what must be 400 grit +/-(slight shine at sharp angle). So you put your rocks in on day one and those same rocks stay in for 10 to 12 weeks without any clean outs to inspect? You are not pulling rocks each week that are ready to move on which means some rocks might get tumbled 5 or 6 weeks longer then necessary. Pulling rocks that are done early saves grit because that frees up space in the tumbler to add more rocks. If 30% of your rocks were ready after say week six then you might be using up grit by keeping them in another six weeks instead of adding more rough that needs grinding. I do agree with the 4 days in 500 part for vibe tumbling. I was just telling Jugglerguy that I really cant tell the difference sometimes after running the polish. I am stubborn though and just cant sleep well at night if I don't do my polish stage, lol Chuck I really try to put tumble grade rocks in from the start Chuck. It takes a long time to round up good starting stock. About week 2-3 the slurry gets thick and I usually do a dump into a tub with no holes and a half hearted cherry pick/inspect using a hose to partially remove slurry off the rocks. Then dump the whole batch back in the tumbler and pour off the extra water from the hose. Hell Chuck, I got a ton of Rios and several tons of coral. Plenty to cherry pick good starting stock from. Bet 60% of all that rock gets destroyed or rejected because it does not pass for tumbling. Can not emphasize how much hand picked tumbling stock I got from that 12 day trip to the Rio Grande. And the coral is like breaking up glass, it is just an easy rock to make tumbles out of. The use of SiC 30 grit rotary tumble is an exaggeration of grit breakdown in a rotary. But SiC is designed to break down. And the bigger the particles the more susceptible they are to breaking down. Serious, after the 3rd day the 30 grit is way smaller. I think any coarse SiC breaks down using the following graph, please replace current for grit size on y-axis 3.5 current = 30 grit, 0 current = 400 grit, time at 100~ = 2 weeks PS Understand the polish issue. Polish was the last step to be omitted. So it is called the Borax step. But I am not so sure that Borax is or allows a polish in some form. An old rock master told be that the ultimate polish can come from rubbing a rock with its own dust.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,562
|
Post by jamesp on Jan 15, 2016 8:32:24 GMT -5
Sir James, You are the mad scientist of rock tumbling! Fantastic shine and so much less hassle for people that are rolling tones of rock. Great work. May I purchase a frame for this statement Tom ? I do get frustrated with set process/method if there is a better/easier way. Perhaps this is such a situation.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,562
|
Post by jamesp on Jan 15, 2016 8:38:43 GMT -5
That sure simplifies the process, and with good result. Do you use SiC 16 Larry ? Do you then go to 80 ? Or do you let the 16 break down past 220 ? OK if I ask ?
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,562
|
Post by jamesp on Jan 15, 2016 8:43:49 GMT -5
Always engineering, great results! Those thin coral chips are being stock piled for wraps or metal cased settings hopefully someday John. Took some trail and lots of error to figure a way to tumble them and leave smooth edges at the end. Not to mention they are very slow to coarse grind due to their shape. Rounder chunkier shapes easier to work with.
|
|
Fossilman
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2009
Posts: 20,711
|
Post by Fossilman on Jan 15, 2016 9:54:27 GMT -5
Great results.......
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,562
|
Post by jamesp on Jan 15, 2016 10:25:06 GMT -5
But I am not so sure that Borax is or allows a polish in some form. An old rock master told be that the ultimate polish can come from rubbing a rock with its own dust. I tried a similar experiment with jasper pebbles, and they did polish. Took a handful of raw, -1/2 red jasper pebbles from the beach, and ran them in a Mini-Sonic with a bit of Spic & Span for a week. Although they still had some flaws from the ocean tumbling, they took a good shine. Nice work James! I once knew an old school wild ass of a lapidary man. He took a 30 inch floor buffing pad glued to plywood disc and spun it on a 1750 RPM motor There was a stationary ring that protruded up an inch around the edge of the 30" buffing pad like a lap machine. He would then cast several sawn like type rocks in plaster of paris face down in one inch tall X 6 inch diameter rings like a cut off PVC pipe. He would spray dampen the buffing pad and charge it with SiC 90 grit and set 4-5 cast stones on the buffing pad. Turn the motor on and the 6 inch castings would rotate in a circle within the 31 inch outer ring like planetary gears. Then step out of the pole shed and let the horrible dust fly. Mind you the buffing pad was turning and slipping past the rotating castings, yet forcing them to rotate within the outer ring rapidly. He would turn it on at dusk and turn it off the next morning. Result was rocks polishing on their own dust. His main target was malachite specimens that he sold at rock shows for good money. I think he got off on people quizzing him on the ultra polish on the difficult malachite. Rotating plus slipping made for an infinite approach directions of the abrasive. The initial 90 grit charge attacked saw marks and then created the initial rock dust coating. Definitely an open air process.
|
|
ingawh
starting to spend too much on rocks
The rock wants to shine, I just help it get there
Member since February 2011
Posts: 194
|
Post by ingawh on Jan 15, 2016 12:01:46 GMT -5
I have been using the ingawh 2 step and find it to be great. With using a UV45 it sure makes the process much easier. Not so many clean outs.....................MrP I remember ingwah mentioned a friend that tumbles commercially using a real coarse grit and letting them roll till the grit broke down to nothing. Then to the vibe with a single grit run I believe. Seems that she got her 2 step from him. Hi Guys - I'll chime in here as, actually, I came up with my 2-step process on my own. The part I got from a buddy was using the extra course grit and letting the course grind run up to 3 or 4 months. This buddy doesn't own a vibe and still does a four step process in rotary. What he does do is re-use his polish slurries FOREVER so they are thick as pea-soup. Cushions well, and he doesn't spend a fortune on polish. I just got tired of all the extra months of extra grits, not to mention the expense, and I didn't have a good system for storing used polish slurry, so I began experimenting and hit on something that really worked for me. Cheers!
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,562
|
Post by jamesp on Jan 15, 2016 12:20:23 GMT -5
Sorry ingawh, and was not making any assumptions like this guy did. Thanks for posting the(your) two step. I use sugar instead of Metamucil, but the results seem similar.
|
|
ingawh
starting to spend too much on rocks
The rock wants to shine, I just help it get there
Member since February 2011
Posts: 194
|
Post by ingawh on Jan 15, 2016 14:07:55 GMT -5
Funny! Thanks for taking my post in the spirit intended. :-) I'm guessing you must have a larger vibe, based on how much slurry you make. (I just use the little Lot-O.) Fun to see what works for others, and clearly the sugar is treating you right! Best wishes, Inga
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,562
|
Post by jamesp on Jan 15, 2016 14:22:38 GMT -5
Funny! Thanks for taking my post in the spirit intended. :-) I'm guessing you must have a larger vibe, based on how much slurry you make. (I just use the little Lot-O.) Fun to see what works for others, and clearly the sugar is treating you right! Best wishes, Inga It is 14 pounds Inga. Problem-the motor sits in the base below the hopper and sure heats up the hopper. So hot that it dries out 2 tablespoons each of water and Borax in 4-5 hours. The alternative sugar is run 1 cup each water and sugar. Allowing it to run 3-5 days w/out adding water.(a whole cup of water takes a while to dry). However the Viking is not friendly with softer stones like the fine obsidian you polished. Guessing I am not knowledgeable about the vibration level adjustment or procedure is off. Would prefer a couple of Lotto models to replace it. Side note-It gets hotter when running Borax than it does sugar. Could be the extra water when running sugar..but I sense the Borax has friction that really shines rocks.
|
|
ingawh
starting to spend too much on rocks
The rock wants to shine, I just help it get there
Member since February 2011
Posts: 194
|
Post by ingawh on Jan 15, 2016 14:45:12 GMT -5
Interesting stuff. Each machine can be so different. I bet sugar is the perfect fit for the action you get with your machine. I have not found the Borax step adds much when I use it - again, probably makes a difference with your equipment, but also, I may have more to learn. Your success makes me think I'll experiment with it some more and see if I can get a little more burnish. ( I tend to burnish by hand after the fact using a paper towel.)
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,562
|
Post by jamesp on Jan 15, 2016 15:56:02 GMT -5
The Borax is needed after sugar a or sticky rocks happen LOL. And they have a film either from the sugar or it is in the surface of the rocks.
Even the clean individual paper towel wipe leaves smears. And after pouring hot water over them or soaking them in hot water dishwasher spots show up at evaporation. The detergent effect of the Borax solves the sugar problem all together.
If I remember right you were using sugar free Metamucil. Good idea if so. Must be the psyllium seed at work.
Do you have to add water much with the Metamucil ?
No doubt each machine has it's own characteristics. The Viking can be adjusted to vibrate enough to frost agates. So the adjustments add to the personalities within.
Your lotto seems to be dialed in. Lots of members using them with great success.
|
|
quartz
Cave Dweller
breakin' rocks in the hot sun
Member since February 2010
Posts: 3,352
|
Post by quartz on Jan 15, 2016 16:38:23 GMT -5
O.K. to ask, heck yes, that's what this forum is all about. I run 16 for two weeks, add grit and run for two more weeks, breaks it down quite completely, but seems to just not be working anymore[too fine]. Then I go to 80 for a couple weeks more. I think it has to do with the rather extreme roughness of most of the raw material. That's in the 5 gallon barrel, the 16 doesn't break down well at all in the 1 3/4 barrel, likely not enough momentum within. I also believe your Borax run adds to the luster of the finish, many argue against that, but we believe in it. I appreciate ingawh for mentioning running polish forever, would compare viscosity of ours with her friends any day.
|
|