jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 19, 2016 4:45:04 GMT -5
There is a problem. People are having problems using SiC 30. It is not breaking down for them in different sized rotary tumblers. Which suggests it is not circulating in the rocks. I experimented with slurries a while back. Lime, hydrated lime, pure white kaolin and my common Georgia red clay. Never tried kitty litter. For some unexplainable reason the red clay did miracles circulating the heavy grit. Way better than the other three materials. I have no idea why. It was available and I just chunked it in the barrel and it worked. Blind experiment... After some study I found colloidal particles in colloidal clays suspends other particles like grit. Just minutes ago I read something about conductivity, effects of ph, ions, silica gelling and a few other parameters of slurry. No idea what these mean and how they effect slurry. I will research it. Apparently, conductivity plays a big role in a slurry being able to suspend foreign particles.?!@#$ Again, no idea what this means. I will post some articles. If anyone out there understands these articles please speak up. (Chemists) 21 hours ago jamesp said: "I could get 30 grit to run with much less water too. To avoid the water washing the grit off and getting it to stick to the rocks. Observed 2 things 1 The clay allowed running barrel about 60% full for what sounds like more grinding action with out the banging. 2 And since running larger rocks(2-3 inches) the 30 grit breaks down way faster. Emphasis on way faster. Smaller the rocks the slower the coarse grind. Try coarse grinding 3/4 inch chips and smaller. Takes forever. Small rocks exert little pressure on the top of the pile where all the grinding takes place. Slow slow slow to develop slurry-no meat being removed. Increase average rock size maintaining a mix of sizes and increase coarse grind times and slurry production. And grit usage rate. But, larger rocks introduce more chances of bruising unless you protect them with thicker slurry or smalls. Media seems folly to me during coarse grind, media grinds and uses (wastes) grit too. Why not replace media with protective slurry and let the grit attack the target rocks 100%. No matter what size coarse grit you use. My success with using 30 grit may be related to tumbling larger rocks..." I'm having a heck of a time with the 30 grit in my 3lb tumbler. It is taking forever to break down no matter what I do. I have tried using the rubber barrel that came with the tumbler and have also made a pvc barrel. Both seem to give similarly poor results. I also glued a small strip of PVC to the wall of the pvc barrel to try to help get the grit stirred up and that seems to have had no effect either. Adding clay cat litter isn't changing the situation much either. I started adding 1tbsp of clay then two and now three. With three tbsp of clay the slurry is quite thick. I can still hear the rocks sliding around but still there is very little grit breakdown after 3 days. The rocks in the barrel are rio cherts and some rio agate and Jasper. There is one large rock, maybe 2.5" and the rest quarter sized stuff. I don't know what I'm doing wrong but it definitely is frustrating. I would go back to 46-70 grit but used up my rock money for a while and still have about 40lbs of 30 grit to use up. The other frustrating thing about the 30 grit is that it really pits the surface of the rocks badly. I didn't really see this happening so much with the 46-70 grit. I can still see saw marks on the rocks after tumbling for two weeks but lots of pits. I don't think it is because all of my rocks are junk but who knows. I know many of them were pretty tough to saw through. Any suggestions are appreciated. Read more: forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/76752/11-16-tumble?page=3#ixzz4QRig6iGd
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 19, 2016 5:13:26 GMT -5
Note last sentence " Lime is a slurry that will rapidly seperate from solution...."
Calcium Hydroxide -Lime- There are many chemicals available on the market today that are suitable for use as neutralization chemicals. The most commonly used chemicals are discussed in an article available here: Neutralization Chemicals. Calcium Hydroxide Ca(OH)2 Calcium Hydroxide [Ca(OH)2]. Also commonly referred to as slaked lime or hydrated lime; calcium hydroxide is formed as a result of hydrating lime (calcium oxide, CaO). Lime is by far the most economically favorable alkaline reagent to use for acid neutralization. Lime is significantly cheaper than caustic (NaOH), but is much more difficult to handle. Lime forms a Two Normal solution in water in that each mole of Ca(OH)2 yields two moles of hydroxide - OH2 as follows in the simple neutralization of hydrochloric acid. 2HCl + Ca(OH)2 → CaCl2 + 2H20 As with magnesium hydroxide, Lime is not very soluble in water. Although the reaction times of lime are substantially less than magnesium hydroxide, lime is difficult to handle because it is handled as a slurry. Ca(OH)2 is divalent, yielding two moles of (OH)2 for every one mole of Ca(OH)2. When compared to caustic (NaOH), which is monovalent, twice the neutralizing power is available for a given molar volume of lime, thus contributing to the economy of lime. As with magnesium hydroxide, lime is normally delivered in dry crystalline form. This must then be mixed with water to form a slurry to be delivered to the process. The ease with which caustic (sodium hydroxide) can be handled makes it far more favorable than lime, at least for low volume applications. Lime is a slurry that will rapidly separate from solution and settle creating a sludge mass that may be very difficult to suspend. The storage tank must be constantly agitated and chemical delivery lines must be kept in motion. Typically recirculation loops are employed with an inline metering valve for chemical delivery. Static lines (not recirculated) are not acceptable because the slurry will separate, and lines will quickly plug.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 19, 2016 5:16:44 GMT -5
www.ransom-randolph.com/faq-ceramic-shell-slurry-testing.htmlWhat does it mean if your binder solids test high? This means that the silica particles within the binder are at too high of a concentration. When the concentration level of the colloidal particles increases beyond the point that the particles can repel each other, then the particles start to condense or agglomerate. This destabilization of the colloidal is known as “gelling”. This will affect the performance of the slurry and the quality of the shells that are produced with the slurry. Once a slurry begins to gel, it cannot be reversed and slurry life and performance will be diminished. For complete details on how to test for binder solids, see the application instructions for R&R binders.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 19, 2016 5:21:50 GMT -5
AbstractAn investigation was performed to study the relationships between properties of slurries used in drilled shaft construction. Slurries with different bentonite and attapulgite concentrations, densities, and sand contents were prepared. The Marsh Funnel viscosity, Brookfield viscosity, and electrical conductivity of each prepared sample of slurry were measured. Tests on slurries containing no sand showed that the Marsh Funnel viscosity, the Brookfield viscosity, and the density correlated very well to electrical conductivity because properties of slurries are acquired due to the presence of suspended clay particles, which can be directly correlated to electrical conductivity. The effects of sand content on viscosity and electrical conductivity were investigated. Marsh Funnel viscosity increased slightly with increased sand content. The Brookfield viscosity also showed some variation with sand content. The electrical conductivity increased with increasing clay content. As sand is added to the slurry, the electrical conductivity decreased slowly since the sand particles are inert as compared to the clay particles. The response of electrical conductivity to clay content and sand content was used to develop calibration curves to estimate Marsh Funnel viscosity and sand content as a function of density and electrical conductivity. Few techniques are now available to measure the density of slurry as it varies in the trench. If electrical conductivity is also measured, the viscosity and the sand content at any location of the trench can be estimated. This will improve the QA/QC of slurry construction.Abstract An investigation was performed to study the relationships between properties of slurries used in drilled shaft construction. Slurries with different bentonite and attapulgite concentrations, densities, and sand contents were prepared. The Marsh Funnel viscosity, Brookfield viscosity, and electrical conductivity of each prepared sample of slurry were measured. Tests on slurries containing no sand showed that the Marsh Funnel viscosity, the Brookfield viscosity, and the density correlated very well to electrical conductivity because properties of slurries are acquired due to the presence of suspended clay particles, which can be directly correlated to electrical conductivity. The effects of sand content on viscosity and electrical conductivity were investigated. Marsh Funnel viscosity increased slightly with increased sand content. The Brookfield viscosity also showed some variation with sand content. The electrical conductivity increased with increasing clay content. As sand is added to the slurry, the electrical conductivity decreased slowly since the sand particles are inert as compared to the clay particles. The response of electrical conductivity to clay content and sand content was used to develop calibration curves to estimate Marsh Funnel viscosity and sand content as a function of density and electrical conductivity. Few techniques are now available to measure the density of slurry as it varies in the trench. If electrical conductivity is also measured, the viscosity and the sand content at any location of the trench can be estimated. This will improve the QA/QC of slurry construction.
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Post by Garage Rocker on Nov 19, 2016 5:22:45 GMT -5
Good grief. Biology, fine. Physics, fine. I draw the line at chemistry though. My experimentation is over, happy enough with 46/70. Who knew slurries were so complicated?
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 19, 2016 5:56:31 GMT -5
Good grief. Biology, fine. Physics, fine. I draw the line at chemistry though. My experimentation is over, happy enough with 46/70. Who knew slurries were so complicated? Tell me about it. I just chunked red clay in a tumbler barrel and it worked. Past that I am lost.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 19, 2016 6:38:46 GMT -5
My apologies if I led people astray. I had good intent.
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richardh
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Post by richardh on Nov 19, 2016 6:44:45 GMT -5
James
I have no doubt that you provided your information in good faith. I wonder if you know what the pH is of your slurry. From what you posted it sounds like that is important. I think you can buy pH test strips at pool supply stores.
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Post by MrMike on Nov 19, 2016 7:28:04 GMT -5
Dammmm, Do you guys ever sleep? I'm with Garage Rocker and going back to 46/70.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 19, 2016 7:29:27 GMT -5
James I have no doubt that you provided your information in good faith. I wonder if you know what the pH is of your slurry. From what you posted it sounds like that is important. I think you can buy pH test strips at pool supply stores. My water is 6.7. Slightly acidic. I tumble mostly Rio Grande material and coral. Feels neutral to my hands, certainly not alkaline or it would dry my skin. I may have a ph kit for the aquarium. Now that that seems a factor it must be measured. I was curious about the high iron content in the red clay. Effecting conductivity(whatever bearing that has on slurry). Ion exchange, ion attraction ? No clue what that is. But it plays a role in some way. If you want to sell your SiC 30 I will be glad to buy it and cover your costs. At three 1/2 cup doses per 6 pound barrel daily it gets used up fast.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 19, 2016 7:33:08 GMT -5
Dammmm, Do you guys ever sleep? I'm with Garage Rocker and going back to 46/70. Only loss in sleep would be steering someone in a bad direction Mike. Sorry it is not working for you.
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Post by MrMike on Nov 19, 2016 8:15:35 GMT -5
Hey no worries & no need to apologize, it was my decision to try SiC30. You just reported what your results were and what has/hasn't worked for you. Never once did you state "Hey guys you HAVE got to try this". Hasn't worked good for me because the grit was the only ingredient I followed for your recipe. No big boy rocks/barrels or 60 RPM. My fault !!!
I for one look forward to reading your posts but I must admit I'm struggling to control my envy/jealousy of that @:"-? Texas trip with all those -@?#?¥ beautiful rocks.......
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 19, 2016 9:09:39 GMT -5
Texas trip not going to score any brownie points MrMike. The lake is public and has agate on it's shores. -GOOD INFO- Don't go there unless you have a boat for best results. Note on tumbling, slowed to 30 RPM and having absolute grit breakdown with 1.5-2 inch rocks every 12-24 hours. Has to be something about that darn mysterious red clay.
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Post by captbob on Nov 19, 2016 9:27:16 GMT -5
Do you have any store bought rubber lined barrels James? If so, be interesting to see if you get the same grit break down in a rubber lined barrel as you do with your PVC barrels.
I'm still of the thought that the hard PVC has to be a factor.
ETA: never mind, just found the other thread.
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Post by Garage Rocker on Nov 19, 2016 13:20:32 GMT -5
I'm still of the thought that the hard PVC has to be a factor. txrockhunter is using 30 in his PVC barrels. 46/70 in rubber. No slurry thickener. Evidence is mounting. I think anyone considering Sic 30 should buy a smaller quantity to experiment with before jumping in with both feet. Make sure your barrels and slurry recipe will promote grit circulation and breakdown. I made a bulk purchase before ensuring it worked for me, lesson learned.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2016 14:11:06 GMT -5
I'm still of the thought that the hard PVC has to be a factor. txrockhunter is using 30 in his PVC barrels. 46/70 in rubber. No slurry thickener. Evidence is mounting. I think anyone considering Sic 30 should buy a smaller quantity to experiment with before jumping in with both feet. Make sure your barrels and slurry recipe will promote grit circulation and breakdown. I made a bulk purchase before ensuring it worked for me, lesson learned. Rotational velocity and stone size also play. jamesp stated such about stone size in another thread. The few weeks I had my MJR running I had absolutely grit break down at 6" PVC barrel, 80rpm, potato size and less stones in 2 days. Nothing under 1". I used three scoops of kitty litter. Baker sized Montana agates almost ready for the next step in two weeks. Soon. I will be able to play and add to the conversation. Learning from Jim I learned experimentation is key.
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Post by Garage Rocker on Nov 19, 2016 14:19:56 GMT -5
Rotational velocity and stone size also play. jamesp stated such about stone size in another thread. The few weeks I had my MJR running I had absolutely grit break down at 6" PVC barrel, 80rpm, potato size and less stones. Nothing under 1". I used three scoops of kitty litter. Baker sized Montana agates almost ready for the next step in two weeks. Soon. I will be able to play and add to the conversation. Learning from Jim I learned experimentation is key. Right. Many, many variables. Glad there are those that like to experiment. The rest of us get benefit from that. I've settled on my process, it's the right blend of grind rate, grit breakdown rate, available time for cleanouts and grit budget. And results.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 19, 2016 16:59:52 GMT -5
I revamped. After over 4 years of running 70 to 80 pounds of rock 4 heavy barrels I cut back to 3 smaller 6 pound barrels. Downsized. Cut speed to 30 RPM for 12-24 hour break down. Add grit every day, clean outs every week. Quick caps on PVC barrel allows 10 minutes time to add grit to 3 barrels. 2-3 week coarse grind turn around assisted by diamond grinder 1-2 hours for 3 barrels. That rate will keep the vibe going ~50%. Time spent per week about 70 + 45 = about 2 hours.
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Post by Garage Rocker on Nov 19, 2016 17:06:07 GMT -5
I revamped. After over 4 years of running 70 to 80 pounds of rock 4 heavy barrels I cut back to 3 smaller 6 pound barrels. Downsized. Cut speed to 30 RPM for 12-24 hour break down. Add grit every day, clean outs every week. Quick caps on PVC barrel allows 10 minutes time to add grit to 3 barrels. 2-3 week coarse grind turn around assisted by diamond grinder 1-2 hours for 3 barrels. That rate will keep the vibe going ~50%. Time spent per week about 70 + 45 = about 2 hours. You've got a sweet setup. I'd like to have your grinding capability.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 19, 2016 17:23:26 GMT -5
I revamped. After over 4 years of running 70 to 80 pounds of rock 4 heavy barrels I cut back to 3 smaller 6 pound barrels. Downsized. Cut speed to 30 RPM for 12-24 hour break down. Add grit every day, clean outs every week. Quick caps on PVC barrel allows 10 minutes time to add grit to 3 barrels. 2-3 week coarse grind turn around assisted by diamond grinder 1-2 hours for 3 barrels. That rate will keep the vibe going ~50%. Time spent per week about 70 + 45 = about 2 hours. You've got a sweet setup. I'd like to have your grinding capability. I would have never fooled with slurry if coarser grades broke down reliably.(a long time ago) Many times I would go check those(PVC) barrels after 3-4 days and the grit had not started breaking down. It always happened on Rios. Rarely on coral. Well, the coral is a different animal. It has a thick soft lime coating that made overnight slurry. When I did clean outs I would add fresh coral because it lost volume quickly due to the soft layer. Each time I added the coral a thick slurry developed over night. Never did the coral have grit problems. And I was given #8 and #16 SiC and had no problems with it either on coral. Check out coral slurry after a couple of days coral before coral after 2-3 days slurry thickness after 2-3 days. grit absolutely gone, broken down completely. With thick slurry Made no sense. Figured thick slurry would slow grit break down. Not.
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